Games on TV this weekend

[Angelo]

This thread basically now represents everything that has gone wrong with football.

Once upon a time, men played Gaelic Football. Sometimes you took a bang, and sometimes you gave a bang. And all being well nobody got sent off.

But a combination of TV camera angles and increasing human timidity has seen 15-20 years of people discussing intent as though it's something that can be gauged through the naked eye, people demanding red cards for anything and everything, plus a never ending circle of whataboutery got every challenge. Put together, it has fed the illness that is feigning injury, as players know that referees are now now genuinely afraid of the blowback from being lenient.


So f**k you all.

Look, I've no problem with that.

I just prefer a bit of balance, if Ricey is rightly castigated for what he did to McEntee then the same treatment should be meted out to Paul McGrane for what he did to Jordan.

You can't just pick and choose what your indignation and outrage applies to, if you're getting up on that soap box then you need to be consistent and some people just don't want to look at their own players and their actions with any degree of introspection but have absolutely no problem mouthing off about the opposition.

Both sides crossed the line in that game. Armagh were certainly the right side of most of the dubious refereeing decisions in that match however.

[trailer]

This thread basically now represents everything that has gone wrong with football.

Once upon a time, men played Gaelic Football. Sometimes you took a bang, and sometimes you gave a bang. And all being well nobody got sent off.

But a combination of TV camera angles and increasing human timidity has seen 15-20 years of people discussing intent as though it's something that can be gauged through the naked eye, people demanding red cards for anything and everything, plus a never ending circle of whataboutery got every challenge. Put together, it has fed the illness that is feigning injury, as players know that referees are now now genuinely afraid of the blowback from being lenient.


So f**k you all.

Look, I've no problem with that.

I just prefer a bit of balance, if Ricey is rightly castigated for what he did to McEntee then the same treatment should be meted out to Paul McGrane for what he did to Jordan.

You can't just pick and choose what your indignation and outrage applies to, if you're getting up on that soap box then you need to be consistent and some people just don't want to look at their own players and their actions with any degree of introspection but have absolutely no problem mouthing off about the opposition.

Both sides crossed the line in that game. Armagh were certainly the right side of most of the dubious refereeing decisions in that match however.

If I remember right McEntee wrote a letter in support of Ricey and Jordan wrote one in support of McGrane. That says it all really. The players moved on pretty quick perhaps we should.

[thewobbler]

That's it Trailer.

The only person who didn't have a public opinion on McMenamin ~ McEntee was McEntee.

I'd assume John's stance was along the lines of a) this one was one that looked worse that it was, b) this is a manly game.

And it was worse than it looked. When watching my son's play wrestle, they do stuff like that all the time. But when they throw punches, I know it's time to split them up.

[BennyCake]

You defended him elbowing McCann in the face. You also said Armagh players were at it and McMenamin gave a bit back. Or wasn't that you?
Haven't seen anyone defend McGrane. He should have been red carded

I didn't defend him at all. I said it as it was, a retaliatory action to McCann dragging him back trying to stop him taking a quick free, as it was. Could have been a red card but a fairly common action in those situations to swing your arms back to free yourself. McCann wasn't caught, referee didn't take any action.

This is just absurd posting from you. You defended McGrane, now you're saying you didn't. You're accusing me of defending McMenamin when I've said from the very outset there is no defending him dropping the knees on McEntee. From the very outset I said McMenamin knew full well what he was doing and it can't be defended.

Meanwhile on McGrane who you are now saying you didn't defend him, you offered up the following excuses:

- McGrane's was during play.
- It was mistimed
- You cannot for one second say for sure if McGrane meant to do damage or not with that tackle
- Plenty of players tackle with a closed fist

Did Paul McGrane clothesline you with a closed fist challenge today or is there another reason why you've a bad case of short term amnesia?

Swing your arms back maybe, but McM deliberately struck with the elbow. That's a red. Whether he connected or not is irrelevant. The intent was there.

It could be a red certainly but the context was it was a reactionary swingback as McCann was dragging long after the whistle was blown and free awarded. It was the last kick of the game so had no bearing. Also should be a yellow card offence for McCann.

Ah come on now Angelo... You complain that some defend McGrane as his challenge was during play, but it's fine for McM to elbow a player in the head because "it was the last kick of the game"?

Many players get held up, dragged back and don't resort to a deliberate elbow being thrown. And no "could be a red" about it. It's a striking action. It's red.

[Angelo]

You defended him elbowing McCann in the face. You also said Armagh players were at it and McMenamin gave a bit back. Or wasn't that you?
Haven't seen anyone defend McGrane. He should have been red carded

I didn't defend him at all. I said it as it was, a retaliatory action to McCann dragging him back trying to stop him taking a quick free, as it was. Could have been a red card but a fairly common action in those situations to swing your arms back to free yourself. McCann wasn't caught, referee didn't take any action.

This is just absurd posting from you. You defended McGrane, now you're saying you didn't. You're accusing me of defending McMenamin when I've said from the very outset there is no defending him dropping the knees on McEntee. From the very outset I said McMenamin knew full well what he was doing and it can't be defended.

Meanwhile on McGrane who you are now saying you didn't defend him, you offered up the following excuses:

- McGrane's was during play.
- It was mistimed
- You cannot for one second say for sure if McGrane meant to do damage or not with that tackle
- Plenty of players tackle with a closed fist

Did Paul McGrane clothesline you with a closed fist challenge today or is there another reason why you've a bad case of short term amnesia?

Swing your arms back maybe, but McM deliberately struck with the elbow. That's a red. Whether he connected or not is irrelevant. The intent was there.

It could be a red certainly but the context was it was a reactionary swingback as McCann was dragging long after the whistle was blown and free awarded. It was the last kick of the game so had no bearing. Also should be a yellow card offence for McCann.

Ah come on now Angelo... You complain that some defend McGrane as his challenge was during play, but it's fine for McM to elbow a player in the head because "it was the last kick of the game"?

Many players get held up, dragged back and don't resort to a deliberate elbow being thrown. And no "could be a red" about it. It's a striking action. It's red.

Many players get held back and dragged when the whistle has been long blown and they do retaliate and swing their arms back, they can have little complaint if they do get a red card but it happens but I'd say in the vast majority where there is no contact to a flailing arm then the referee just gets on with it.

That's just fact.

Could McMenamin have been sent off for this? Absolutely.
Was it a retaliatory action? Yes
Should McCann have also been yellow carded? Yes

When players are being held back and prevented from taking a quick free, it's natural reaction to swing your arms back to free yourself but one which players need to cognisant of that it could well and truly end up with them being given their marching orders.

Really it's a case where referees need to protect players who are the ones being provoked and this is a thing across the whole spectrum, sinners and sinned against.

[tonto1888]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

[Angelo]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

You offered up 4 different excuses. The fact that you can't actually see that you contradicted yourself is amazing.

It would have saved us all this hassle if you had just admitted that in the first place rather than trying to excuse McGrane.

[BennyCake]

Many players get held back and dragged when the whistle has been long blown and they do retaliate and swing their arms back, they can have little complaint if they do get a red card but it happens but I'd say in the vast majority where there is no contact to a flailing arm then the referee just gets on with it.

That's just fact.

Could McMenamin have been sent off for this? Absolutely.
Was it a retaliatory action? Yes
Should McCann have also been yellow carded? Yes

When players are being held back and prevented from taking a quick free, it's natural reaction to swing your arms back to free yourself but one which players need to cognisant of that it could well and truly end up with them being given their marching orders.

Really it's a case where referees need to protect players who are the ones being provoked and this is a thing across the whole spectrum, sinners and sinned against.

Is it natural to do that though? I'm not sure it is.

A player who fouls an opponent, then holds on preventing a free being taken. If the ref stops play to book said player, he still achieves the stoppage as the free can't proceed until opponent is booked.

You do raise an interesting point though. A flailing arm has replaced a dig in the jaw, but I think it's still a striking action. Players always get away with it though, even if it connects with an opponent.

In the same way a forceful push/open hand strike to the neck/face has replaced a punch, as players also know they'd get red for a punch, but they won't get red for a push/open hand strike.

I've long said it, that we should follow soccers rule: any contact with the neck, face or head should be a straight red.

[screenexile]

Yeah I'm not buying that someone swinging the arm has had enough and are swinging the arm back on purpose it's not a natural reaction.

It's happened me enough times and I have never swung the arm back so I don't think it's right to say it's a natural reaction.

[tonto1888]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

You offered up 4 different excuses. The fact that you can't actually see that you contradicted yourself is amazing.

It would have saved us all this hassle if you had just admitted that in the first place rather than trying to excuse McGrane.

You're wrong. The only thing I said is you can't say for certain if he meant to do Jordan or not. Now, go have a read back over the thread. There's a good boy

[GetOverTheBar]

McMenamin was a p***k on and off the field. It was a cowards act and anyone defending him would want to have a word with themselves. There was no sportsmanship in him. Anytime him or Dromore were getting best he started a row.

Couldn't be further from the truth if you tried.

I've heard he was a nice lad off the field. Never met him so couldn't comment

McMenamin was a nasty one on the pitch, no doubt. He would tell you that - he even did, his Laochra Gael is excellent.

Off the pitch he'll take you completely by surprise, I'm not a Dromore man nor do I even know McMenamin personally but I've ended up taking a few beers in his company before. He couldn't be further from what you would think off the pitch from my experience. I'm sure that goes for everyone who has an adverse reputation on field, Galvin, O'Leary or whomever comes to mind.

[Angelo]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

You offered up 4 different excuses. The fact that you can't actually see that you contradicted yourself is amazing.

It would have saved us all this hassle if you had just admitted that in the first place rather than trying to excuse McGrane.

You're wrong. The only thing I said is you can't say for certain if he meant to do Jordan or not. Now, go have a read back over the thread. There's a good boy

Nope you also said the following:

- McGrane's was in play
- It was mistimed
- Plenty of lads tackle with a closed fist
- And it's impossible to say if he meant it or not

I could say it's impossible to say if Ricey meant to collapse on McEntee on purpose, it wouldn't wash and neither does it wash with McGrane.

Are you now denying saying the 4 points above?

It seems to me that after spending a huge amount of time trying to defend McGrane that it is indefensible.

[Angelo]

Many players get held back and dragged when the whistle has been long blown and they do retaliate and swing their arms back, they can have little complaint if they do get a red card but it happens but I'd say in the vast majority where there is no contact to a flailing arm then the referee just gets on with it.

That's just fact.

Could McMenamin have been sent off for this? Absolutely.
Was it a retaliatory action? Yes
Should McCann have also been yellow carded? Yes

When players are being held back and prevented from taking a quick free, it's natural reaction to swing your arms back to free yourself but one which players need to cognisant of that it could well and truly end up with them being given their marching orders.

Really it's a case where referees need to protect players who are the ones being provoked and this is a thing across the whole spectrum, sinners and sinned against.

Is it natural to do that though? I'm not sure it is.

A player who fouls an opponent, then holds on preventing a free being taken. If the ref stops play to book said player, he still achieves the stoppage as the free can't proceed until opponent is booked.

You do raise an interesting point though. A flailing arm has replaced a dig in the jaw, but I think it's still a striking action. Players always get away with it though, even if it connects with an opponent.

In the same way a forceful push/open hand strike to the neck/face has replaced a punch, as players also know they'd get red for a punch, but they won't get red for a push/open hand strike.

I've long said it, that we should follow soccers rule: any contact with the neck, face or head should be a straight red.

It is fairly common if players want to get on with the game they will want to free themselves and they will swing their arms back to do so.

Of course they have to be careful as doing so could get them sent off and as you said players will adapt and find other ways and means but I think referees certainly give players some leeway with this, if you connect though there is a good chance you'll get the line.

[tonto1888]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

You offered up 4 different excuses. The fact that you can't actually see that you contradicted yourself is amazing.

It would have saved us all this hassle if you had just admitted that in the first place rather than trying to excuse McGrane.

You're wrong. The only thing I said is you can't say for certain if he meant to do Jordan or not. Now, go have a read back over the thread. There's a good boy

Nope you also said the following:

- McGrane's was in play
- It was mistimed
- Plenty of lads tackle with a closed fist
- And it's impossible to say if he meant it or not

I could say it's impossible to say if Ricey meant to collapse on McEntee on purpose, it wouldn't wash and neither does it wash with McGrane.

Are you now denying saying the 4 points above?

It seems to me that after spending a huge amount of time trying to defend McGrane that it is indefensible.

I suggest you go back and reread the thread. Pay attention to a post made on May 11th at 11:22. See who it was made by and then have a rethink.
I did say you can't say for certain if McGrane meant it. And you can't. That's not a defence. He made the tackle. It was a bad one. He should have been sent off

[Angelo]

You need to reread everything here. You are capable of that aren't ye? I said you can't say for certain that McGrane went in to do Jordan. Unless you have actually talked to him and he told you or you are him. It doesn't matter tho, he should have been sent off. I haven't listed any excuses for him

Why don't you apply your own logic to yourself as you're talking out both sides of your mouth. If you weren't trying to defend McGrane, you would not have offered any excuse up, you offered four.

I could offer the same "you don't know for certain" line with Ricey, but it wouldn't wash and it doesn't wash with McGrane. It wasn't some accident with McGrane, he knew full well what he was doing - he's tackled with a closed fist for a start - an illegal and very dangerous tackle, he's used all the force he had, he's high and absolutely nowhere near the ball. He was going to do Jordan, he wanted to leave something on him - Enda McNulty cost Armagh an All Ireland a year earlier by trying to do something similar to the Fermanagh player.

Are you really this thick? I didn't offer up any excuses for McGrane. I still think you bc annoy say for certain he meant to do Jordan. Maybe he did. Maybe he didn't. It was a red card either way. Try reading back through what I posted and see that it wasn't me who offered those excuses for McGrane. There's no excuse for that tackle

You offered up 4 different excuses. The fact that you can't actually see that you contradicted yourself is amazing.

It would have saved us all this hassle if you had just admitted that in the first place rather than trying to excuse McGrane.

You're wrong. The only thing I said is you can't say for certain if he meant to do Jordan or not. Now, go have a read back over the thread. There's a good boy

Nope you also said the following:

- McGrane's was in play
- It was mistimed
- Plenty of lads tackle with a closed fist
- And it's impossible to say if he meant it or not

I could say it's impossible to say if Ricey meant to collapse on McEntee on purpose, it wouldn't wash and neither does it wash with McGrane.

Are you now denying saying the 4 points above?

It seems to me that after spending a huge amount of time trying to defend McGrane that it is indefensible.

I suggest you go back and reread the thread. Pay attention to a post made on May 11th at 11:22. See who it was made by and then have a rethink.
I did say you can't say for certain if McGrane meant it. And you can't. That's not a defence. He made the tackle. It was a bad one. He should have been sent off

How about you follow your own advice and go back and reread your posts?

You said the following:

- no way to say if he meant it
- plenty of players tackle with closed fists
- it was mistimed
- and it was in play

Now why not just hold yours hand up rather than roll out a list of excuses?