Europe. Will it split in the future?

Started by Denn Forever, February 17, 2019, 03:40:54 PM

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lynchbhoy

As Iceland have proven, No one cares when money is involved.
Any initial split will be commercial and lure of remuneration and profit will override any split.

Those on low wages though will be affected most as costs of certain things such as food, will rise.

Reunification will be a reality, but I'd be worried that Ireland's negotiators with eu and British gov on getting parachute payments will be worse than British Brexit negotiators and we will end up worse off financially, where we should be in the black and in a great position such as Japan and Germany post ww2. 
..........

easytiger95

#31
For work, I go to the European parliament in Strasbourg once or twice a year.

It is a beautiful city, the Cathedral quarter is really lovely all year round. Strasbourg was selected as the home of the parliament because of its geography - Alsace was the disputed territory between France and Germany, the touch paper for regional conflict  throughout the centuries and it changed hands multiple times.

Because of this Strasbourg has as much a Germanic, huddled, middle European look to it as it has that wide lens, boulevardier French style. The parliament itself is on the outskirts of the city.

If you know your history you can appreciate the difficulties of the European project - the utter difference between countries, from language, to style, to attitude, to politics. Coherence is immensely hard to achieve. But if you sit in one of the cafes and realise that 75 years ago, tanks with Swastikas were rolling across the tram lines in the Place De la Republique as they were chased out of Alsace by Patton's army, then it is easy to comprehend how fragile and how precious a Europe with democracy is. And how easy it could be for us all to return to that.

The parliament building is as massive and confusingly laid out as legend has it. I've been there 6 times now and I still get lost in it. But is also beautiful, an astonishing architectural and practical achievement. I work in media and the facilities and organisation are amazing.

When I first entered it, I was as cynical of bureaucracy/corrupt politicians as others on this thread. But one thing that struck me was how deeply people feel about the institutions there. None of the MEPs I have met have appeared to me to there simply for the gravy train. I have met MEPs from across the strata - German Greens, English Tories and UKIPers, Italian Lega, SNP, Spanish Podemos - and they all believe in the importance, for good or ill, of the European project. So it is very far from the stultifying, boring place that I thought it would be. Sure, there is self interest, there is in any large institution. But in general, it works - plenary sessions are opened, debates are held, votes taken, laws made.

I think the financial crisis, rightly, has made us suspicious of the EU. They certainly hung us out to dry in many ways, to protect larger interests in Germany, France, even as far as America. And in so doing, and in their willingness to accept that corporate interests had to be prioritised in order for some greater good (stability of the euro, of central banks, of an out-moded brand of rapacious capitalism), they have scarred working people throughout Europe. And you don't get the rise of right wing populism without that scarring, without a sense of injustice, that things are stacked against the most vulnerable.

However, I also think lessons are slowly being learned. The darkness into which Hungary and, just behind them, Poland, are slipping is in contrast to the brightness of the original vision of the Treaty of Rome. If the past 15 years have taught us anything it is that the system must serve the people, rather then the people propping up the system. If neo liberalism is not the answer - and we see from Davos this year that it is dawning on the elites that it is not - then institutions like the EU can be instrumental in that change. Remember, it is the EU who prosecuted Apple for tax avoidance. They also formulated GDPR which has massive implications for big tech. When its power is used in the right way it is extraordinarily effective. 

People are strange, forgetful and superstitious creatures. They think that just because cappuccinos in cafes and cheap clothes in H&M were available today, they will be available tomorrow. They forget that the modern, consumerist society (which has massive flaws, and which must  transition to something far more sustainable) that we have now is based on a shared understanding of our rights, our dignity as humans, and our capacity to tolerate the other. If that understanding is not renewed in every generation, then it can disappear instantly - because after all, it is only an ideal. The only German run concentration camp established on French soil during WWII was in Alsace. 22,000 people died there. The EC/EU was a direct response to that barbarity.

Criticise it? Yes. Reform it? Absolutely. Abandon it? At our own peril.

armaghniac

#32
Quote from: easytiger95 Criticise it? Yes. Reform it? Absolutely. Abandon it? At our own peril.

Well said, Easytiger

Quote from: bennydorano on February 19, 2019, 08:29:27 AM
Yeah, apart from the stratospheric wages that are paid compared to other areas of the EU, companies haven't got form for shifting operations to save a few bob or anything.

Most of these companies in Ireland now are more concerned with the availability of staff than their exact remuneration, the  Dell, Fruit of the Loom etc are already gone. There are already EU countries will lower wages and lower corporation tax rates than Ireland, there is no great loss of companies there now. Google does not move from California to Tennessee because the wages are lower.

In any case, we'll soon be adding a low wage component to the jurisdiction, they can just move to Derry.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Rossfan

When is Derry coming to make us the 27 Cos.??
Excellent post by Easytiger.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM