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Messages - easytiger95

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1
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 24, 2018, 11:12:11 AM »
As I said before on the thread, I'll be voting yes.

The debate has depressed me for numerous reasons - mostly that I could see the same strains of populism and disregard for the facts that we have seen in other important democratic moments over the past decade all over the world.

It has also brought home how easily an issue can become globalised, both in terms of funding and coverage, and the pernicious effect that social media has on debate.

It is not a great time for democracy, and I think it is incumbent on all who are casting their votes tomorrow to reflect on how precious it is to be able to do so, without (in the main) intimidation or coercion. It is up to all to make sure we keep it that way, no matter what the issue.

That said, I think there some grounds for optimism. The Citizens Assembly is truly a ground breaking forum and is being studied by political scientists from all over the world. Whether we repeal or not, it has been a really brave experiment in direct democracy.

I also think the Oireachtas Committee tasked with making the recommendations also did a great job, and I think should be an example of the thought and gravitas legislators gave the subject. In general, I think the political class has handled the debate well without undue rancour. It might be a comfort to those who despair of leaving decisions to our politicians, that not many were trying to make hay out of this. This issue transcends partisan politics and in the future, should the 8th be repealed, I hope that attitude influences any proposed legislation.

In the end (and just to qualify, this is all just my opinion), if the 8th is repealed, we may be embarking on a new phase of our life as a republic. It is a bit trite maybe to describe it as being more grown up, but certainly the act of looking at and trying to resolve this issue shows a maturing of our attitudes. No individual ever gets to be the adult person they actually hoped to be - and I know those who wish to save the 8th may abhor the changes that may come. But, we will have changed as a country, aged, and looking at ourselves in a different light. That may be a harsh light, but I honestly think it will be better for us all than the darkness that has surrounded abortion for the past 40 years.

Whoever can vote, get out there and do so, no matter what cause you support - as I said before, the only regret anyone can have in all this is not using their vote.


2
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 23, 2018, 08:50:50 AM »
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/oireachtas/miriam-lord-stony-faced-silence-from-anti-abortion-absolutists-1.3504884

Because everyone was so busy being respectful, it seemed inappropriate to start up a chant in the chamber when the awkward silence descended.

But, as the ditty goes, they were all very quiet over there.

The truth hurts.

After years and years of pouring cold words from closed hearts, the absolutists had nothing to say when called out on their fake concern for the hard cases.

When Leo Varadkar and Mary Lou McDonald nailed their rank hypocrisy, they kept schtum.

For over 30 years they, or those like them, had plenty to say about those hard cases when fighting with every fibre of their being to have them cast out of their own country, along with their less deserving, casually exiled sisters.

Then five years ago, they deliberately turned their backs to the hard cases when vehemently opposing every syllable in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act (PLDPA). Despite their unstinting efforts inside and outside Leinster House – the histrionics, the filibustering, the pressurising of colleagues, the unfounded scaremongering – that legislation passed into law.

Just one tiny concession and they railed against it, vowing to overturn it if ever there came a chance. That Bill recognised just one hard case, the hardest case of all: women who will most definitely die unless their pregnancy is ended.

But even the PLDPA was a step too far for the politicians who voted against it and were proud of the fact.

A death’s door directive for a gravely ill woman.

And they voted against it.

And they have remained implacable in their refusal to give any comfort to women who have been raped or women carrying a baby which won’t live outside the womb and who want to end their pregnancies.

Gullible doctors

Because you can’t trust women, who will be lining up to pretend they’re dying in order to procure abortions. And if they aren’t acting out death scenes in surgeries the length and breadth of Ireland, they’ll be pulling the wool over gullible doctors’ eyes by being suicidal all of a sudden.

As late as last weekend, Senator Rónán Mullen was sounding troubled about what exactly constitutes mental health, particularly where it pertains to a woman who may be experiencing a crisis pregnancy.

There is “a lack of evidence that mental health is health” was his astonishing remark while he ruminated on “the suicide thing” and other aspects of the PLDPA during an appearance on RTÉ’s The Week in Politics. It so angered his fellow Senator Grace O’Sullivan that she called for him to come into the Upper House “to explain to us why he said that he does not believe that mental health is health”.
 
The Green Party politician told the Seanad on Tuesday, “I don’t know what utopia he lives in but I live in a world where mental health is a real health issue to which we in this country . . . are not giving enough time.”

Meanwhile, back in the Dáil, the Sinn Féin leader was determined that people should not forget the doom-laden words and actions of politicians and anti-abortion campaigners who stood in total opposition to the PLDPA before it was enacted.

These same people are now trying to say that they supported it and that it gives more than adequate protection to women, but sure if it doesn’t, it mightn’t be a bad idea to take another look at the hard cases again.
Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald: the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the “very same people” who “themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill”. Photograph: Gareth Chaney Collins Sinn Féin leader Mary Lou McDonald: the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the “very same people” who “themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill”. Photograph: Gareth Chaney Collins   
And grant them their fervent wish that the Eighth Amendment remains in place.

“In the course of this debate, it is important that we deal in fact,” she told the Taoiseach during Leaders’ Questions. “I have heard assertions from the No campaign and its spokespersons that what they call hard cases, pregnancies as a result of rape, for example, or a pregnancy with a diagnosis of fatal foetal anomaly, that these cases can be dealt with under the current constitutional framework, and that is patently untrue.”

Mary Lou McDonald is right.

The Taoiseach absolutely agreed with her.

‘Hard law’

“I would contend that it is actually our hard laws that create those hard cases,” replied Varadkar. “And the Eighth Amendment is too hard and forces a very hard law on Irish people and Irish women.”

He reminded the Dáil of the amendment’s “eloquent” wording.

“It says that the right to life of the unborn is equal to that of the mother, so the right to life of a foetus of only a few days’ gestation is equal to the right to life of your mother, your sister or your female friends and co-workers.”

Mary Lou didn’t want anyone to forget that the people now suddenly aware of the hard cases are the “very same people” who “themselves campaigned against the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill”.

Remember, she said, that they talked about “the floodgates” opening and abortion become widely available as a result.

“They were wrong on this matter just as they are wrong now not to acknowledge that the Eighth Amendment blocks any action to legislate for what they call the hard cases. And how do we know this? We know this because we have tried.”

To suggest there is another solution is “entirely disingenuous”.

Leo Varadkar was alive to the pivoting of the previously unshakeable anti-abortion politicians and activists.

“What I see now, in the dying days, in the final days of this campaign is a tactic, a tactic by the No campaign to try and make out that there is some sort of alternative amendment that we could put into our Constitution,” he began, looking across the floor to the Fianna Fáil benches, where a majority of TDs voted against holding a referendum and even more are against repeal.

He had a question for them and the anti-abortion absolutists who now say repeal is not the answer.

‘Alternative amendment’

“I would ask those people, 30 years after that amendment was put into our Constitution, why in those 30 years has nobody put forward an alternative amendment that would deal with all of these hard cases? Why, only three days from the vote, are people suddenly raising that as a realistic argument and alternative?”

There was silence in the chamber. The Fianna Fáil TDs who are not backing their leader Micheál Martin’s position sat stony-faced. Not a peep out of one of them.

Which is when we contemplated our little chant about them all being very quiet over there.

But the Taoiseach filled the gap, answering for them.

Because what they are scrambling to propose “is not a realistic alternative; it is just a tactic”, declared Leo.

“And I believe the Irish people will see through that.”

Once again, not a sound from the people who turned a blind eye to the hard cases when they could have acted with reason and compassion. Because they knew in their hearts that the Taoiseach was speaking the truth.

They had 35 years to act on their concerns for women and their babies. Thirty-five years to do something about supporting the hard cases. Thirty-five years to show they care about more than just the fate of the foetus.

But they did nothing.

Now their bluff has been called and compassion is suddenly conjured up for the hard cases, along with more baseless predictions about floodgates opening and the whole country going to hell in a handcart.

They have cried wolf once too often.

Do they seriously expect anyone to believe anything they say anymore?


Well said Miriam Lord.



3
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 17, 2018, 02:28:17 PM »
I've no idea how the likes of Sid and Seanie do it, but fair play lads, you have done an amazing job putting forward the case for a Yes vote.

I don't envy your bosses though  ;D

4
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 10, 2018, 03:59:56 PM »
If a no voter tells me, honestly, that he/she considers a foetus to be alive from conception, and that they can't square their conscience with what the termination of that foetus would mean to them, then there is very little I can say to change their mind. I don't think I'd try either.

This is a vote of conscience - I don't think anyone going to the polls is doing so with a skip in their step. It is the most consequential social decision we have ever been asked to make.

The only regret anyone should have over their vote, is not using it. The campaigners on either side don't have to presume good faith on the part of their opponents. Perhaps we should do so here, so people don't have to be "humbled" at any stage of the game.

5
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 09, 2018, 04:58:31 PM »
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

Yes... and I was telling you that a parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite.??? People will vote on how a range of issues, for example in West Tyrone if the Shinners somehow managed (they wont) to get the A5 built, sorted out Brexit, and got Stormont going again I MIGHT consider voting for them...(if I had a vote) in spite of their position on this issue!

Not to mention that the current government in the Dail got 25% of the popular vote... not exactly democratic, throw in party whips and proportional representation and single issues soon get mired.

In Indyref many Scots did not vote yes because the case of independence hadn't laid out the economic plan of independence. You cant make a decision if you don't know what the consequences will be.
And the consequences of voting Yes on the 8th have been made clear by the incumbent government and that is that healthy humans will have their lives legally ended without ever having a chance or choice.

Besides I dunno why your trying to reduce this to purely about the question asked, you've expressed support for those consequences havent you? So give your rationale for that instead of trying to narrow the remit on what people should be voting on in this referendum.

What are you talking about? I already gave my reasons for voting yes. Read back the thread.

People vote on single issues in general elections all the time - see 2nd amendment voters in the US, UKIP voters (now Tories) in the UK. I believe you are the one limiting choice by saying people cannot do so. Of course they can, if they choose to, at the expense of other issues.

All I was pointing out was that, should the referendum be passed, given we live in a parliamentary democracy, the legislation that is causing No voters such distress (and genuine distress I am sure) can be modified in the future by the election of a government with a mandate to do so. Which is one advantage of taking this issue out of the constitution.

It is a simple point.

Careful about the scissors.


6
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 09, 2018, 03:31:06 PM »
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.
???
That must leave you as the butter knife Tiger

I am talking about the fact that if this referendum is passed, the legislation that will follow can be changed, by the wishes of the electorate by....you guessed it, voting out those who passed the legislation and voting in those with new, more draconian policies. So I wasn't actually talking about the process of the referendum, as I qualified at the start. I was talking about the subsequent democratic process.

You can apologise for your naivety or dishonesty at your leisure.

I wouldn't be walking around with sharp scissors if I were you.

7
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 09, 2018, 03:20:18 PM »
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

A parliamentary election is not a single issue plebiscite it involves multiple issues.

This however is a plebiscite on the 8th amendment and the consequences of it being removed of which the main one is the introduction of legislation for elective abortions for no medical reason at 12weeks.

To try and paint this referendum as anything else is either completely niave or just plain old dishonesty.

Still the sharpest knife in the drawer I see Joe.

8
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 09, 2018, 02:47:35 PM »
Quick constitutional primer for all involved -

If the referendum is passed and the government moves legislation legalising abortion that you don't like...you can vote them out.

During any election, you can always vote for the party with the most draconian proposal for facilitating abortion, and if they don't implement it...you can vote them out.

If any of your local TDs take a liberal stance on abortion, you can not give them a preference, in the hope they will be...voted out.

And if you think TDs are too stupid/gullible/unprincipled (fill in your own adjective) to be trusted with such an issue...you can vote them out.

The reason why the Constitution is the wrong place for this, and the Oireachtas is the right place, is that the science involved is constantly evolving, as are social attitudes. It is up to people to be active in that political process to influence it to their own position. Saying that the current reps are not good enough is a cop out. Run for office if you feel the system is letting you down. But don't let the perceived incompetence of legislators be a reason for denying women healthcare and autonomy over their own bodies in terrible situations.

9
GAA Discussion / Re: 'GAA Athletes for a No Vote'
« on: May 03, 2018, 12:06:37 PM »
You've missed the point. I have no problem with them expressing their views as private citizens, whatever their opinion. I have a huge problem with them hijacking a sporting organisation, conflating their views with the aims of the organisation- under the guise of "inclusivity", no less. The mind boggles at the cynicism.
So if they decide to insert themselves into a debate in such a dishonest way, they can have all the vitriol and venom i can give them.
They are big boys, aren't they, not snowflakes?

I raised the issue of the venom and vitriol being directed against these people. They didn't. They will almost certainly have known the vitriol and venom the likes of yourself would direct their way, but yet they were still prepared to stand up for their beliefs by putting their heads above the parapet. Respect to them for that.

Snowflakes? I don't think so.

It is my belief that they genuinely believe the words they are speaking and are doing so on what they - and I - believe is a life and death issue, and genuinely believe that that is consistent with the ethos of our organisation. You can put YOUR interpretation of their actions in whatever way you want for whatever cause you want. The manner in which you do though will give as much insight into yourself as those it's directed against.

Ah, so you're the snowflake.

10
GAA Discussion / Re: 'GAA Athletes for a No Vote'
« on: May 02, 2018, 09:27:31 PM »
Wow, I watched that video, and it really stuck in my craw.

Why should I take advice on a grave social issue from lads whose only claim to fame is having fairly decent hand to eye coordination and athletic builds?

The GAA is a sporting association and these lads are good at playing games - I wouldn't be asking them to perform brain surgery the next time I need it.

The entitlement of it. I want my GAA players to take scores and burst opponents. After that I can take them or leave them. Whether they were advocating a Yes or a No, they are doing it by leveraging the very organisation that gave them the profile they are abusing. I don't care what they do or say as private citizens.

They can rev up and f$%k off as far as I am concerned.

And this is the sort of vitriol and venom I referred to in a previous post on the matter. Respect to those that participated, knowing almost certainly that this could be the sort of reaction they would receive on social media for voicing their opinion.
You've missed the point. I have no problem with them expressing their views as private citizens, whatever their opinion. I have a huge problem with them hijacking a sporting organisation, conflating their views with the aims of the organisation- under the guise of "inclusivity", no less. The mind boggles at the cynicism.
So if they decide to insert themselves into a debate in such a dishonest way, they can have all the vitriol and venom i can give them.
They are big boys, aren't they, not snowflakes?

11
GAA Discussion / Re: 'GAA Athletes for a No Vote'
« on: May 02, 2018, 04:21:27 PM »
Wow, I watched that video, and it really stuck in my craw.

Why should I take advice on a grave social issue from lads whose only claim to fame is having fairly decent hand to eye coordination and athletic builds?

The GAA is a sporting association and these lads are good at playing games - I wouldn't be asking them to perform brain surgery the next time I need it.

The entitlement of it. I want my GAA players to take scores and burst opponents. After that I can take them or leave them. Whether they were advocating a Yes or a No, they are doing it by leveraging the very organisation that gave them the profile they are abusing. I don't care what they do or say as private citizens.

They can rev up and f$%k off as far as I am concerned.


12
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 02, 2018, 04:10:23 PM »
That's not what he meant.
If a woman has the appalling crime of rape inflicted on her, is made pregnant as a result, and subsequently decides to carry the pregnancy to full term and puts the baby up for adoption, that is her choice and the right choice for her.

The point is that by voting No, people will be voting to continue the situation where rape victims are forced to any resulting pregnancy to full term.

Unless they leave the country, obviously.

Somebody having an adopted child that they love that was the product of a rape, is not a reason for this state to force rape victims to be forced to carry a pregnancy to full term.

The dirty little secret the No side have is that they are extremely glad that Britain offers acess to abortion, because it's a safety valve. That way the No side can simply keep their fingers stuck in their ears and whistle away to themselves, pretending that there is no problem with how pregnant women are treated in Ireland.

I have a real problem with this line.

The most precious possession you have in this world is your own people.

Women are people too, you know.

It's time we start treating them like people, not vessels.


I agree.

That said, this vote is going to be a very personal one for everyone and I have no problem with Baile An Tuaigh giving his own personal reason for his preference. I don't find it persuasive on a general level, but as an explanation of where he is at on this, it seems valid enough.

13
I think Des was going for the 'for all the abuse soccer gets, the self-righteous GAA would never do this if the shoe was on the other foot' angle.
Basically, if a Dublin-supporting English man was attacked by Mayo fans, while standing outside Gills, would the Dubs find out which local soccer team he was involved with back in England and hang their jersey in the dressing-room?
I guess we will literally never know.
Anyway, he picked a strange hell to die on, if you ask me.

But will Des take the classy way out?


14
General discussion / Re: Eighth Amendment poll
« on: May 02, 2018, 01:50:14 PM »
I'll be voting yes for a few reasons - which were mostly covered by BB's post.

15
General discussion / Re: ABBA - To pollute the Airwaves again
« on: April 30, 2018, 06:38:47 PM »
My mother used to love them, and I have loads of memories of driving to Donabate beach as a child with her singing along to the cassettes (which were kind of like streaming, except sometimes you had to use a pencil to make them work). Some really nice summer memories attached to those songs for me.

Of course, you always reject what your parents like (and in the case of their James Last obsession, this can be a good thing). But years later, when I hear an ABBA tune, not only do I know every chord change because of my immersion in it back then, but I can also appreciate that, damn, those boys could write a song. And please don't compare them to manufactured, Stock, Aitken and Waterman crap from the 80s - it's not their fault no-marks covered their catalogue.

Here is my favourite, and if anyone can find my glittered platform boots, please let me know.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ90ZqH0PWI

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