Another GAA-insider's view on the Maze Stadium

[SammyG]

Sammy/Evil G etc.
Yes the GAA have adequate stadium but not in comparison to what is being proposed at the Maze. If the Maze is only going to be 35K (similar to capacity of Clones),the comfort and stadia facilities are by far superior and the GAA are being given the use of this. For the GAA to renovate Clones or any other Ulster stadium to this Comfort would cost £millions so the view of the majority of GAA fans i have been talking to about this is that if (and most have major doubts that it ever will) the maze is built why not make use when required but if not then we already have adequate infrastructure in place which can be upgraded.

That's not what is being proposed. The GAA won't have the option to use the Maze 'when required', they will be one of the anchor tennants and will be contracted to pay £750000 per year.

Sammy,

have you any proof, links, etc to back that up?

Yes, it was announced by the SIB and details have been given on various previous threads. If you can't find them I'll dig them out when I get home.

[Donagh]

I'm sure they do Donagh.  I think that the views of many members of this  board lean towards the viewpoints that concur with a certain political party and I'm not sure that it is a true barometer of the GAA overall.

I think it's very dubious to hold this discussion board up as a measure of what GAA people in general think
/Jim.

Jim, as the Board is dominated by northerners it's hardly surprising that their political views dovetail with a certain party when such matters are being discussed. However this is not a political issue and if you are discussing GAA and sporting matters in general it would be as representative of the broad sweep of opinions as you are going to get anywhere outside Congress. Unless of course you think that a certain political party spends their days up here plotting ways of influencing the Association by getting at insiders. For what it's worth this issue hasn't even registered on the radar of most GAA members I've spoken with and the general consensus on this Board seems to confirm that. Similarly the issue hasn't registered with the members of that political party either. Some of the Blocks and Cages have been listed and are under the control of the OFDFM – their future is secure with or without this stadium.

PS No matter what your sparing partners over on OWC may claim, I've found up here that it is extremely rare to find someone active in both a political party and a GAA club, probably due to the fact that both involve a great commitment in terms of time.

[mikerob]

The initial economic appraisal by PriceWaterhouseCoopers for the new stadium can be found here and it contains indicative attendance numbers provided by the GAA, IFA and UB/IRFU.

If the project proceeds, then I would expect that each sport will need to sign up to a minimum committment for attendances that I assume will form part of contractual arrangements for use of the stadium.

[snatter]

The initial economic appraisal by PriceWaterhouseCoopers for the new stadium can be found here and it contains indicative attendance numbers provided by the GAA, IFA and UB/IRFU.

If the project proceeds, then I would expect that each sport will need to sign up to a minimum committment for attendances that I assume will form part of contractual arrangements for use of the stadium.

cheers Rob.

I've just had a skim through it.

The assumptions made all sound very reasonable - they note that their attendance predictions are deliberatley on the prudent / cautius side.

I can't see any huge holes in it at all.

I also can't find any reference, direct or oblique, to SammyG's figures, but hey, that doesn't surprise me.

I'm still waiting for him to prove other unsubstantiated claims, such as the GAA getting more govt aid than the IFA, traffic engineers reports on travelling to the maze, etc.
Sammy, why don't you start substantiating your claims before posting them. If you can't, then don't bother posting.

Also, the report reiterates that our Ulster stadia are pretty poor - it says that Casement has only 2500 seats out of a 34k capacity (and not all of these seats are covered), that it's antiquated and "doesn't meet safety standards".
It estimates that it would cost the GAA between £25 to £35 Million just to upgrade Casement, without increasing capacity.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

If Casement doesn't "meet safety standards", how can the Ulster Council/Antrim County Board get away with hosting matches there??  I think what PWC mean is that it doesn't meet the standards for a UEFA Cup Final, which is dead-on as no-one has suggested hosting Galatasary and Espanyol at Casement.  I've had a quick scan through the eco appr.  It reads to me that PWC set out with the conclusion that a 42,000 stadium at the Maze was what SIB and DCAL wanted and then sought to justify it esp. since the perceived big stumbling block of the GAA was on board.  It seems to me that the level of consultation carried out was negligible and it totally ignores the existence of Clones.  One of the more laughable comments I saw somewhere was that the GAA would support a 42,000 seater stadium at the Kesh as it would enable them to bring more big games to "N Ireland"!!

[mikerob]

The report does say "each of the Governing Bodies will be required to sign a contract to deliver a minimum number of events for 20/25 years" and outlines two possible models for operating the stadium:
- revenue share: there is an agreed % revenue share between the sporting body and the stadium operators
- base rent: each of the sporting bodies pay an agreed rent for use of the stadium

So revenue share looks like "pay as you go" with the contractual committment to deliver a certain minimum number of events (but what happens if they don't?) while the "base rent" model would presumeably incentivise the sporting bodies to deliver more than their minimum commitment.

The precise details "would form part of the negotiations with the Governing Bodies".

[SammyG]

The assumptions made all sound very reasonable - they note that their attendance predictions are deliberatley on the prudent / cautius side.

I can't see any huge holes in it at all.

I also can't find any reference, direct or oblique, to SammyG's figures, but hey, that doesn't surprise me.

Eh, did you actually read the report. It says that rent will be based on either a percentage of revenue or a base rent not matter how many matches are played. The SIB have quantified this as £750K for GAA, £500K for football and £250K for rugby

I'm still waiting for him to prove other unsubstantiated claims, such as the GAA getting more govt aid than the IFA, traffic engineers reports on travelling to the maze, etc.

You've had details on both of those items. Try having a look back through the many previous threads.

Sammy, why don't you start substantiating your claims before posting them. If you can't, then don't bother posting.

See previous answer.

Also, the report reiterates that our Ulster stadia are pretty poor - it says that Casement has only 2500 seats out of a 34k capacity (and not all of these seats are covered), that it's antiquated and "doesn't meet safety standards".
It estimates that it would cost the GAA between £25 to £35 Million just to upgrade Casement, without increasing capacity.

Err no it says that it would cost £25-35 million to bring Casement to the standard for a UEFA match. As the GAA don't have anything to do with UEFA, it's totally irrelevant. Also even if it was true £35 million to GAA for Casement is a fcuk load less than £115 million plus for the Maze.

[Main Street]

Err no it says that it would cost £25-35 million to bring Casement to the standard for a UEFA match. As the GAA don't have anything to do with UEFA, it's totally irrelevant. Also even if it was true £35 million to GAA for Casement is a fcuk load less than £115 million plus for the Maze.

I  read this bit, nothing there about UEFA standard
"The following works have
been identified by the SCNI to bring the venue up to a basic but functional standard:
• Demolish the existing stand and rebuild to give 6,000 covered seats to include changing and
media facilities;
• Provide floodlighting as this is likely to become a requirement for larger GAA fixtures;
• Upgrade other viewing decks to provide cover and/ or seats;
• Install suitable safety features such as a crowd control point to include CCTV and a PA system.
Costs of this work has been estimated by SCNI at between £24.6 million and £33.6 million and are
included in the Do Minimum option of the appraisal."
Looks like an upgrade would cost that much and overall would not come close to meeting the GAA's assessed minimum needs.

[snatter]

Err no it says that it would cost £25-35 million to bring Casement to the standard for a UEFA match. As the GAA don't have anything to do with UEFA, it's totally irrelevant. Also even if it was true £35 million to GAA for Casement is a fcuk load less than £115 million plus for the Maze.

Yet more delusional bollocks Sammy.

As I've already said Sammy - get your facts right before posting, otherwise, don't bother.
You've discredited yourself enough already.

The report mentions nothing about making Caement UEFA compliant.

For the record it says:

IMPROVEMENTS REQUIRED FOR CASEMENT PARK

The venue is poorly designed and recent renovations have provided reasonable uncovered standing viewing decks. The existing stand is poorly designed and does not comply with safety requirement.

Work	Rationale	Cost
Demolish existing stand and rebuild to give 6,000 covered seats to include changing and media facilities.	Existing facilities inadequate.	£8 – 12 million
Provide floodlighting.	Likely to become a competition requirement for larger GAA fixtures.	£0.6 million
Upgrading viewing decks to M1 and city side to provide cover and/or seats.	Very basic facilities are provided.	£15 – 20 million
Provide suitable crowd control point to include CCTV and PA system etc.	Safety requirement.	£1.0 million

This will bring the venue up to basic but functional standard.
Note: This will provide three reasonable venues with little or no capacity
for ancillary revenue.

[SammyG]

Err no it says that it would cost £25-35 million to bring Casement to the standard for a UEFA match. As the GAA don't have anything to do with UEFA, it's totally irrelevant. Also even if it was true £35 million to GAA for Casement is a fcuk load less than £115 million plus for the Maze.

Yet more delusional bollocks Sammy.

As I've already said Sammy - get your facts right before posting, otherwise, don't bother.
You've discredited yourself enough already.

The report mentions nothing about making Caement UEFA compliant.

For the record it says:

IMPROVEMENTS REQUIRED FOR CASEMENT PARK

The venue is poorly designed and recent renovations have provided reasonable uncovered standing viewing decks. The existing stand is poorly designed and does not comply with safety requirement.

Work	Rationale	Cost
Demolish existing stand and rebuild to give 6,000 covered seats to include changing and media facilities.	Existing facilities inadequate.	£8 – 12 million
Provide floodlighting.	Likely to become a competition requirement for larger GAA fixtures.	£0.6 million
Upgrading viewing decks to M1 and city side to provide cover and/or seats.	Very basic facilities are provided.	£15 – 20 million
Provide suitable crowd control point to include CCTV and PA system etc.	Safety requirement.	£1.0 million

This will bring the venue up to basic but functional standard.
Note: This will provide three reasonable venues with little or no capacity
for ancillary revenue.

I know you seem to have trouble reading but try reading the whole report rather than just isolating bits and it will make a bit more sense. The reasons that Casement needs upgrading are to 'meet safety standards'. ie the UEFA standards.

[his holiness nb]

"You've had details on both of those items. Try having a look back through the many previous threads"
"See previous answer"


So its down to not providing examples from previous posts when asked (as you repeatledly ask others for) instead say read back through mant previous threads. Funny I recall you lads having a go at me for saying something similar a while back.

"I know you seem to have trouble reading but try reading the whole report rather than just isolating bits and it will make a bit more sense"

Also the insults are becoming a bit more personal, ironic given the moral high ground taken previously over this sort of carry on.

[SammyG]

"You've had details on both of those items. Try having a look back through the many previous threads"
"See previous answer"


So its down to not providing examples from previous posts when asked (as you repeatledly ask others for) instead say read back through mant previous threads. Funny I recall you lads having a go at me for saying something similar a while back.

Sorry but I'm just getting a bit fed up providing the same answers in every single thread, because snatter can't/won't accept the previous answer.

"I know you seem to have trouble reading but try reading the whole report rather than just isolating bits and it will make a bit more sense"

Also the insults are becoming a bit more personal, ironic given the moral high ground taken previously over this sort of carry on.

Wasn't intended as an insult (well not a very major one  ). It is clear that snatter very rarely bothers to read anything before he replies, so I was just stating the obvious.

[his holiness nb]

An insults an insult, every time I insult anyone "I was just stating the obvious" doesnt seem to cut it.

[A Quinn Martin Production]

On page 18 of the PWC economic appraisal it dicusses the fact that the Sports council reported in 2003 that "...each of the major venues for respective sports, despite recent renovations, fall short of the standards of safety and comfort found at arenas in larger town and cities of Great Britain".  The following paragraph states that the in the opinion of the Sports Council there is work to be done "...just to bring these facilities (Casement, Windsor, Ravenhill) up to the minimum standard required to host major competitions..."

On p32 under the objectives sections it has the objective of bringing one major sporting event to NI p.a. and uses the example of the UEFA Cup Final or a rugby international.

IMO what this report says is that Casement requires significant work to bring it up to the standard to be able to host a major European sporting event e.g. a UEFA Cup Final or a rugby international...so what??  As I said above nobody is suggesting bringing a major European sporting event to Casement (apart from the Ulster Hurling Final obviously)

[SammyG]

An insults an insult, every time I insult anyone "I was just stating the obvious" doesnt seem to cut it.

Sorry but when somebody asks you a question, dozens of times and you answer it each time, but he refuses to read your answer and just asks the question again, then stating that he has trouble reading is hardly an insult.