IFA's Football without Frontiers initiative

Started by T Fearon, June 08, 2007, 01:36:48 PM

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Main Street

Quote from: SammyG on June 09, 2007, 06:15:14 PM
You don't half talk some shite. FIFA/UEFA will not allow two separate countries to form one team, not now not ever. It would be the end of international football as we know it. What possible justification would there be for asking them to change their rules, especially as neither the FAI or IFA want it, the fans of the two teams don't want it (with the exception of a few nutters, most of whom have never been to a match) and I'd doubt if the players would want it as it would reduce their chances of getting a game.

Sammy,  FIFA do not have any power. The football federation map in Europe has changed radically since the break up of the SU.
One exception to the fragmention was with 2 seperate countries, West and East Germany,
now one country, one football federation. Never say never, there is a context.
FIFA's role is to set the regulations and rubber stamp the claims of a federation for recognition.

NI doesn't quite cut the mustard to be called a country. It's maybee a bit more than an Isle of Man with a football federation.
I am quite happy with the Irish Constitution granting citizenship to all born on the Island and any young lad can declare for Ireland as many have done. The 2 federations can coexist and compete as in the Setanta.

Strangely enough with the Stormont Parliament dead as a dodo, the British walking backwards out of there, Shinners sharing power, are the loyalists any more fearful and paranoid now than during the 50 years of the Stormont Parliament ?

Solomon Kane

Quote from: armaghniac on June 09, 2007, 11:35:40 PM
QuoteIf the "entity" as put it is sectarian, does it not logically follow then that the Irish Republic is also sectarian?

No.

The IFA was established in the 19th century reflecting a geographic unit. Politics meant that Ireland became partitioned in the 1920's, this should be matter of regret for all Irish people. You can argue that it was necessary as other things would be lost from leaving the UK, or (as I would argue) unecessary, but it has  many disadvantages either way. I argue that whatever political differences exist, that it should not be necessary for sporting organisations, goldfish breeders, drama societies etc to organise them in a divided way.


This Irish person does not for one second regret partition. There would still have been a civil war if the Irish Free State had 32 counties instead of 26, the only difference being it would have been along sectarian lines instead of pro/anti partition lines. It would have made the recent troubles look like a tiny skirmish. All parties at the time knew this, though few liked it, unionists included. It was as close to an honourable compromise as was possible. The use of the term political differences is pointless - the realility is that there is a political boundary, whether you like it or not and that is not going anywhere any time soon. SF have accepted this, all for getting a wee bit of Irish on letterheads in a few government departments and a few extra bob thrown at Irish language schools. Using their own previous logic they are now part of a Vichy administration.

SammyG

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 01:41:14 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 09, 2007, 06:15:14 PM
You don't half talk some shite. FIFA/UEFA will not allow two separate countries to form one team, not now not ever. It would be the end of international football as we know it. What possible justification would there be for asking them to change their rules, especially as neither the FAI or IFA want it, the fans of the two teams don't want it (with the exception of a few nutters, most of whom have never been to a match) and I'd doubt if the players would want it as it would reduce their chances of getting a game.

Sammy,  FIFA do not have any power. The football federation map in Europe has changed radically since the break up of the SU.
One exception to the fragmention was with 2 seperate countries, West and East Germany,
now one country, one football federation. Never say never, there is a context.
FIFA's role is to set the regulations and rubber stamp the claims of a federation for recognition.

They are one country so one team, when they were two countries they had two teams. Which is exactly the point I was making.

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 01:41:14 PM
NI doesn't quite cut the mustard to be called a country. It's maybee a bit more than an Isle of Man with a football federation.
I am quite happy with the Irish Constitution granting citizenship to all born on the Island and any young lad can declare for Ireland many have done.

Who are the many, I only know of a couple and none of those have actually played for the RoI.
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 01:41:14 PM
2 federations can coexist and compete as in the Setanta.
Of course they can, what has that got to do with this discussion?

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 01:41:14 PM
Strangely enough with the Stormont Parliament dead as a dodo, the British walking backwards out of there, Shinners sharing power, are the loyalists any more fearful and paranoid now than during the 50 years of the Stormont Parliament ?

I have absolutely no idea what that sentence means and I don't know any loyalists, so I've no idea what they're fearful of.

Fishead_Sam

T Fearon Whats your problem with the Irish Farmers Association?

Thats the only IFA around this part of the island & as far as I know they not sectarian, even though I think most of their members tend to be interested in the GAA.

Farmers having a soccer association is this like an Norn Iron thing  ;)

Solomon Kane

Quote from: Fishead_Sam on June 10, 2007, 03:05:17 PM
T Fearon Whats your problem with the Irish Farmers Association?

Thats the only IFA around this part of the island & as far as I know they not sectarian, even though I think most of their members tend to be interested in the GAA.

Farmers having a soccer association is this like an Norn Iron thing  ;)


Personally I thought his other letter today was the funnier of the two. I wonder how the 0.5m nationalists in NI were "frogmarched" into the UK when they had in fact been living in the UK all along. To paraphrase Jimmy Rabbitt's da in the committments "Dr Eamon Pheonix must be shitting himself". :D :D

Main Street

Quote from: SammyG on June 10, 2007, 02:17:23 PM
Who are the many, I only know of a couple and none of those have actually played for the RoI.
Well Sammy I did say DECLARED not played.
I suppose I used "many" to describe the selection of 4 declarees on a competitive underage squad, off hand there's O'Connor, Wilson, Gibson and Kane.
That would be over 20% of the squad. I assume that they would have been good enough to make the NI squad. Within a narrow context of competent young talent then 4 is many, there may be more I don't know.

QuoteOf course they can, what has that got to do with this discussion?

What's the point of that the two federations can co-exist and compete? Sammy have a refresh on the thread content. My point is that its a total non issue for the 2 federations uniting. If any talented young lad doesn't want to play for NI then it is his civil right to obtain an Irish passport and declare for Ireland.


MW

Quote from: T Fearon on June 09, 2007, 10:03:58 AM
A couple of points.

Anyone who knows the history of Irish soccer  knows full well that the IFA induced the split by its parochialism and only selective inclusion of siouthern born players. Read Eoghan Corry's excellent book on the subject for the true story.

I've got Corry's book and even though it's slanted twoards a southern perspective, it says nothing of the sort.

The FAI broke away from the IFA  in 1921. The Irish Free State played its first full international in 1926.

What "selective inclusion of southern players" prompted this??

And also, call me crazy but if you're talking about the World Cup, it didn't start until 1930. And neither the Irish Free State nor (Norrthern) Ireland entered that tournament.

SammyG

Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 09:29:37 PM
Quote from: SammyG on June 10, 2007, 02:17:23 PM
Who are the many, I only know of a couple and none of those have actually played for the RoI.
Well Sammy I did say DECLARED not played.
I suppose I used "many" to describe the selection of 4 declarees on a competitive underage squad, off hand there's O'Connor, Wilson, Gibson and Kane.
That would be over 20% of the squad. I assume that they would have been good enough to make the NI squad. Within a narrow context of competent young talent then 4 is many, there may be more I don't know.
Their elligibility or otherwise has not yet been decided. I have studied the FIFA/UEFA regulations inside out and backwards and I can not see any grounds on which they qualify for the RoI. I could declare for Brazil but it wouldn't make me elligible. The fact that the FAI haven't actually played any of them would suggest, that they are (at the very least) dubious about their elligibility.
Quote from: Main Street on June 10, 2007, 09:29:37 PM
What's the point of that the two federations can co-exist and compete? Sammy have a refresh on the thread content. My point is that its a total non issue for the 2 federations uniting. If any talented young lad doesn't want to play for NI then it is his civil right to obtain an Irish passport and declare for Ireland.

Firstly there's no such team as Ireland (as you already know) and secondly and much more importantly, elligibility for a passport has absoluely no baring on elligibility to play for a country's football team. You have to meet the relevant criteria, as laid down by FIFA, namely be born in the country, live in the country for 5 years or more or have a parent or grandparent from the country.

nifan

My inderstaning is that Kane and Gibson moved in large part due to a falling out with some of the staff of the NI youth teams.

Swinging Fiona

It amuses me that many northern nationalists support a team that is partitionist.

Main Street

#40
Quote from: SammyG on June 11, 2007, 11:13:53 AM
Their elligibility or otherwise has not yet been decided. I have studied the FIFA/UEFA regulations inside out and backwards and I can not see any grounds on which they qualify for the RoI. I could declare for Brazil but it wouldn't make me elligible. The fact that the FAI haven't actually played any of them would suggest, that they are (at the very least) dubious about their elligibility

Firstly there's no such team as Ireland (as you already know) and secondly and much more importantly, elligibility for a passport has absoluely no baring on elligibility to play for a country's football team. You have to meet the relevant criteria, as laid down by FIFA, namely be born in the country, live in the country for 5 years or more or have a parent or grandparent from the country
.

I see there are over 70 pages of a thread on the subject of defectors on the OWC website. Surely Sammy with that level of debate intensity you would have been aware that there were more that 2 declarees.
An Irish national born in another football juristiction is no impediment to playing for Ireland. If the young lad has been capped at youth level for NI, it is still no impediment but just the FIFA Players' Status Committee will have to rubberstamp the move.
The FIFA rules were tightened up to deal with the Oman's passport for sale to Brazilians.
The exception  is article 15.3
When a player has a choice, FIFA recognise the Youth's intrest first and allow for change until he is capped at A level and under 21 years of age.
I would not put any money on the IFA appeal no matter what the odds were.


QuoteFirstly there's no such team as Ireland
No offence meant, just we call it Ireland, passport says Ireland, Minister of Foreign Affairs says I'm a citizen of Ireland.
AFAIA ROI is a discriptive term which in some contexts is used officially to differentiate.


Evil Genius

#41
You know, when Fearon originally declared his self-denying ordinance from slating anything and everything to do with soccer in NI, I was surprised he managed to hold off for so long.

However, not even I thought it possible that when he did return, we would see a "New Improved Fearon - now with 50% more Fatuousness", but by Christ, he's managed it.

To refresh our minds back to the original rant with which he opened this thread, Fearon posted the following:

"Noted the inception of this programme [Football Without Frontiers] yesterday, encouraging foreign nationals to get involved with soccer.

Though the title was more than a tad ironic, given that the IFA has erected fronntiers in soccer on this island, by causing the original split, and point blankly refusing to countenance any debate about one ireland soccer side,league etc"


There is only one ironic aspect to all this. In his rush to spew out his usual bile about the IFA "erecting frontiers" etc, he overlooked the fact that the IFA was actually hosting what is a combined initiative by a number of sporting bodies from all around these islands, including Sport Against Racism Ireland"*, based in Dublin, and "Show Racism the Red Card", a body which covers the whole of the UK and Ireland!

( http://www.irishfa.com/the-ifa/news/3140/football-without-frontiers )
FOOTBALL WITHOUT FRONTIERS
11/06/2007
The Irish Football Association's Community Relations Department has taken a lead role in the formation of a new UK and Ireland wide super group called Football Without Frontiers.

New UK and Ireland Wide Super Group Formed to Tackle Both Racism and Sectarianism in Football

This new group brings together expert knowledge from the following established groups:

Kickitout (London)
Football Unites Racism Divides (FURD) (Sheffield)
Sport Against Racism Ireland (SARI) (Dublin)
Show Racism The Red Card (SRTRC) (UK and Ireland)
Football For All (Scotland)
The Northern Ireland Community Relations Council (CRC – NI)
The Institute for Conflict Research (ICR) (Belfast )
The Irish Football Association's Football For All Community Relations Department (IFA) (NI)
With support from Alliance MLA, Anna Lo, this new group of Community Relations experts who work in football had their inaugural meeting at Parliament Buildings, Stormont, on Wednesday 6th June.

IFA Head of Community Relations, Michael Boyd, summarised the progress the group made in Belfast:

"This is the beginning of something special. Each individual group represented has made a valuable contribution to the sport of football over the last ten years making the sport more inclusive. Established groups like Kickitout, FURD, SARI and SRTRC have led the way in Europe, the UK and Ireland challenging racism and sectarianism in football. This new Football Without Frontiers super group brings this wealth of knowledge together so we can share learning and make more of a strategic impact in the future. We are delighted the first meeting was in Belfast and it has been an honour to help start this group up. We hope this partnership work will help us in Northern Ireland to build on the progress we have made at international level eradicating sectarianism and support development of a more inclusive, fun, safe and family orientated culture in the Irish League".



It's quite clear that when it comes to making a public p***k of himself, it is Fearon who knows no frontiers....


* - For those readers who may not be familiar with SARI, the Director is Brian Kerr, former manager of the ROI soccer team, and a valued guest of the IFA in Belfast.
"If you come in here again, you'd better bring guns"
"We don't need guns"
"Yes you fuckin' do"

Billys Boots

QuoteNew UK and Ireland Wide Super Group Formed

I guess that means The Travelling Wilburys will shelve their 'best-of' project.   :P
My hands are stained with thistle milk ...