Truth At Last

[scalder]

I fear that the often mentioned inevitability of Unity will prove just as incorrect as the predicated inevitable electoral rise of SF in the south. Under the GFA we for the first time acknowledged and accepted the unionist veto, I hope I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

[Evil Genius]

I fear that the often mentioned inevitability of Unity will prove just as incorrect as the predicated inevitable electoral rise of SF in the south. Under the GFA we for the first time acknowledged and accepted the unionist veto, I hope I'm wrong but that's how I see it.

There's the rub: what you term "the Unionist veto", we prefer to see as the Principle of Consent (i.e. not to be ruled by Dublin).

How would you feel if I said that the 1916 Rebels were merely exercising "the Nationalist veto" (i.e. not to be ruled by London)?

All of which leads to a powerful underlying theme to this thread, namely that there is an obligation, or duty, upon all Irish people to require to break the Union and establish a United Ireland. That is, that the desire of other Irish people to maintain the Union is simply not legitimate.

Of course, those of us from a Unionist background are used to being subjected to this (frankly) rather insulting mindset - we're only blow-ins, after all. But the worst vituperation appears to be reserved for those from a (seeming) Nationalist background who recognise that their neighbours derive from another tradition and wish to live peaceably side by side with them. The epithets are all here - Castle Catholics, stoops, traitors etc. And highest on the list of turncoats appears to be "Uncle Tom John Hume" (as another poster so charmingly dubbed him).

Just why are people like him not allowed to think for themselves? Is it because deep down, with his Planter surname, he's not really "Irish"? Perhaps someone of impeccable Gaelic lineage could enlighten me? Gerry Adams perhaps? 

[scalder]

Yes I understand that you see it differently but I believe that Irish unity should be decided by the people of Ireland as a whole that a blocking vote should not be given to a minority.  Maybe we should have a repartition reflecting the nationalist majority in 4 of the 6 northern counties. I agree terms of abuse are not helpful but from my perspective I can't understand how you can expect to be seen as anything other than 'blowins' when your allegiance is to a foreign country and not primarily to Ireland. Why are they now allowed think for themselves? Quisling should have said that he was not a traitor or an collaborator and that he was 'just thinking for himself.'

[SammyG]

Yes I understand that you see it differently but I believe that Irish unity should be decided by the people of Ireland as a whole

Why? If the Spanish government wanted to merge with Portugal, it wouldn't go ahead just because the Spanish voted for it, it would need a majority of Portuguese people as well. Why should NI and the RoI be any different?

[OdoSkimodo]

Because portugal wasn't seperated from Spain in an attempt to gerrymander a majority of people in favour of it's existence.

[Rossfan]

Under the GFA we for the first time acknowledged and accepted the unionist veto,

If that were so then  the votes of Nationalists in the 6 North Eastern counties wont count in the event of a referendum on Re Uniting Ireland politically ??
Somehow I recall the GFA referring to a majority of the people of Northern(sic) Ireland ??

[scalder]

And led to the creation of the Northern State?

[SuperMac]

Serious historians, both in Britain and Ireland, today accept that Churchill's offer was a sincere one. De Valera refused partly because he wasn't sure about the bona fides, partly because he wasn't sure he could sell it in the country and partly because he feared that if Britain did fall to the Nazis, the Free State would be screwed for having collaborated with the Brits.
The analogy with e.g Cyprus or India was an entirely false one since in both cases they were already part of the Empire, with British troops stationed in them i.e. the offer of independence was an encouragement to the natives to enlist, since Conscription would never have worked, or to prevent a rebellion and switch to the enemy.
By contrast, the Free State had Dominion status (i.e. semi-independence), as well as something to offer (the vital ports) in return for Churchill's offer of NI.
As for the promise of Irish Home Rule, that was made (not by Churchill, btw) to Redmond, in return for the support of the Irish Volunteers in WW1. Which was fair enough, except that the Easter Rebels rose in 1916 at the very time when Britian was in most peril in the war with Germany. This preceived act of treachery (whether you consider it such or not), combined with the massive vote for Sinn Fein in 1918 (consequent to the execution of the Rebels), entirely changed the basis of relations between Britain and Ireland from that which had existed in 1914 and before.

Consider also the character of Churchill, himself. Though an out and out Imperialist, he never had the great attachment to Irish Unionism of his father Randolph (who coined the phrase "Ulster Will Fight and Ulster Will Be Right", I think). Indeed, on one occasion Winston had to abandon a public address in Belfast during the Home Rule Crisis, since the RIC couldn't guarantee his safety - from a Unionist crowd.
Not only that, but Churchill had an almost pathological hatred of Nazism, combined with a fierce pragmatism which would cause him to do whatever it took to prevail.
For example, at the same time as he was making his offer to Dev, he also flew several times to France at enormous personal risk, to bolster the (pre-Vichy) French Government. In particular, he was desperately concerned that the French would give in and the huge French Naval Fleet* in the Med would fall into German hands. Had that occurred, the War might well have been lost, since Britain needed to keep the French fleet out of German hands as much as it wanted the Irish deep-water ports for the Royal Navy (to keep Britain fed and supplied from N.America).
In the end, Churchill was so desperate that his final offer was to form an Anglo-French Union, with French citizens all having full British Citizenship (and vice-versa), with a single Government, if necessary. However, the French military caved in and Reynaud (the French PM) couldn't swing it. Make no mistake, this proposal would have meant the end of the UK as a single, independent sovereign nation and Churchill knew it better than anyone.

Therefore, anyone who knows anything about the man knows that his offer to Dev will have been an entirely serious one. Which is why there is no doubt that Dev blew the best (only?) chance of a United Ireland during the whole of the 20th Century. Shame. 

Still, if you want to go on believing the tired old myths of Irish Nationalism, in the face of clear historical evidence to the contrary, carry on. I hope it gives you a nice warm feeling...


* - When the France finally fell to the Nazis and Churchill didn't trust the French Naval commanders either to sail to British ports, or scuttle before the German/Vichy Government took over, Churchill personally ordered to Royal Navy to sink them, their hitherto allies, with massive loss of life:
http://www.digitalsurvivors.com/archives/churchillsinkingfrenchfleet.php

You shouldn't have bothered typing all that rubbish out pal  . Go on, continue to live in fantasy land, glad you enjoyed my Uncle Tom John Hume remark though.

[armaghniac]

Therefore, why should it merit "aid" to oil the wheels of any political arrangement into which it has freely entered, when 90%+ of the world's population is considerably poorer than any Irish person? Half the world starving, and people here are expecting further handouts?

I think because this kind of decolonisation is not setting a precedent, as nowhere quite like the 6 counties exists elsewhere in Europe. However if NI is properly governed and peaceful, it should be fairly prosperous and while some transitional arrangements would be needed, it is not quite like unifying Korea. Such transitional arrangements would be a small enough part of the EU budget and the Romanians might even agree in case they want to re-unite with Moldova.

Of course, those of us from a Unionist background are used to being subjected to this (frankly) rather insulting mindset - we're only blow-ins, after all.

Time you stopped regarding yourself as blowins and try and tried integrate a bit, diverse Poles and Nigerians have managed it, so it can't be that hard.

And highest on the list of turncoats appears to be "Uncle Tom John Hume"

A prophet is never well regarded in his own land.

[SammyG]

I think because this kind of decolonisation is not setting a precedent, as nowhere quite like the 6 counties exists elsewhere in Europe. However if NI is properly governed and peaceful, it should be fairly prosperous and while some transitional arrangements would be needed, it is not quite like unifying Korea. Such transitional arrangements would be a small enough part of the EU budget and the Romanians might even agree in case they want to re-unite with Moldova.

What the fcuk are you on about? Are you trying to suggest that NI (or even the island of Ireland) is a colony of some sort?

Time you stopped regarding yourself as blowins and try and tried integrate a bit, diverse Poles and Nigerians have managed it, so it can't be that hard.

Don't know anybody, Unionist or otherwise, that thinks of themselves as a blow-in. My family have been here for a long long time, long enough to be considered a native. I think you'll find it was the people who wanted to bomb us into the sea (and our now ministers in our government  ) who saw us as blow-ins.

[Evil Genius]

Yes I understand that you see it differently but I believe that Irish unity should be decided by the people of Ireland as a whole that a blocking vote should not be given to a minority. 

Maybe we should have a repartition reflecting the nationalist majority in 4 of the 6 northern counties.

I agree terms of abuse are not helpful but from my perspective I can't understand how you can expect to be seen as anything other than 'blowins' when your allegiance is to a foreign country and not primarily to Ireland.

Why are they now allowed think for themselves? Quisling should have said that he was not a traitor or an collaborator and that he was 'just thinking for himself.'

Re your first point, that's fine - then again, you would say that, wouldn't you? But what would happen in the event of, say, 51% of people in NI voting for a United Ireland and 51% of people in the ROI* voting to maintain partition i.e. an overall majority in favour of maintaining the status quo? Quite simply, in 1921 a clear majority in one part of the island voted to break with the Union and a clear majority in the other part voted to retain it. In such circumstances, so long as their rights are freely and democratically respected, it is incumbent upon minorities "trapped" on both sides of the border to accept it.

As for re-partition, what do you do about e.g. Nationalists in West Belfast, or Unionists in Derry? Do you really want to Balkanise the conflict no sooner than we've just reached a settlement? I know I don't.

And as for your blithe acceptance of the term "blow-in", so long as a million Irish people, many of whose ancestors have lived in Ireland for centuries, are treated like that, you'll never have an Agreed Ireland, nor will you have a United [sic] Ireland imposed by force or chicanery or any other means. Or, to put it another way, how dare you tell me what political views are acceptable to hold and what aren't? I can see no distinction between that sort of bigoted prejudice and the bigoted prejudice of Unionists during the Stormont regime who decided that Nationalists in NI didn't "count" because they professed allegiance to a "foreign" country.

As for your analogy with Quisling...   Are you Mary McAleese operating under a pseudonym by any chance?  


* - Not so fanciful as some might think, the way things are going  

[deiseach]

deiseach "  Unionism has always reserved the right to take up arms to prevent such a corrupt parliamentary bargain. They would, in my opinion, be justified in taking such an action " - Are you serious ?

Yes. If Irish Nationalists are entitled to take up arms to further their political aims, then surely Ulster Unionists are entitled to the same, shall we say, courtesy?

[Evil Genius]

Under the GFA we for the first time acknowledged and accepted the unionist veto,

If that were so then  the votes of Nationalists in the 6 North Eastern counties wont count in the event of a referendum on Re Uniting Ireland politically ??
Somehow I recall the GFA referring to a majority of the people of Northern(sic) Ireland ??

The majority of voters, from all communities and on both sides of the border, ageed in the GFA that the status of NI as part of the UK will only change when/if a majority of voters in NI so decide. The Agreement has been ratified or recognised by just about every foreign government which has any interest, plus all the relevant multi-national organisations such as the EU and the UN.

Consequently, NI can clearly assert that after 86 years, much of it under challenge and assault of all kinds, it has now emerged into the 21st. Century with its right to exist more strongly established than ever.

Live with it.

[armaghniac]

What the fcuk are you on about? Are you trying to suggest that NI  is a colony of some sort?

When did it cease to be a colony?

And as for your blithe acceptance of the term "blow-in", so long as a million Irish people, many of whose ancestors have lived in Ireland for centuries, are treated like that,

However when any of us suggest that this group of people are not blow-ins but just plain ordinary Irish people like the rest of us, entitled to the same rights and subject to the same obligations are everyone else, we get landed upon. You can't have it both ways.

[Evil Genius]

You shouldn't have bothered typing all that rubbish out pal  . Go on, continue to live in fantasy land, glad you enjoyed my Uncle Tom John Hume remark though.

Is that really the best you can do? Two lines and a puerile gibe. And the laughable thing is, it wasn't even your first effort - you had to use the Edit function before you were satisfied!

As someone once said: "It is better to say nothing and be thought a fool than open your mouth, and confirm it"