Truth At Last

[Pangurban]

Quote from Garret Fitzgerald....The people of the 26 Counties are state orientated not Ireland orientated, and have been since the 1920s....a rare statement of truth from a free state politicians, and an end to the patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric that southern parties have getting away for years. Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border. Better to cement the bonds with Unionist friends and neighbours, with whom we have more in common. An item on the R.T.E. News tonight called for the cleaning up of Glasnevin Cemetery in time for the centenary of the rising. What rank hypocrisy. Having interred the Republic declared by the the executed leaders, they now propose to stand at their gravesides and salute them, while of course declaring to be their adherents. Full marks for honesty Garret, you are a Man among Minions

[blast05]

If you didn't know by now that all us free staters would take another tax cut ahead of a united ireland then your finger must be off the pulse   

[Pangurban]

I have always known that, but have never heard a free state politician willing to admit it. thats why i thought Garrets statement worth comment.

[J70]

Yet if they weren't going to honour the 1916 leaders you'd be complaining about that too.

What do you want from the people from the south? Should we be following a different path to that we are on regarding the north? If so, what is it?

[thejuice]

the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border.

Im finding that hard to swallow. Is this based on certain parties reluctance to form a coalition with Sinn Fein or what!! I dont know why anyone down here would be set against a United Ireland. Maybe I live in my own bubble on this issue.

[lynchbhoy]

the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border.

Im finding that hard to swallow. Is this based on certain parties reluctance to form a coalition with Sinn Fein or what!! I dont know why anyone down here would be set against a United Ireland. Maybe I live in my own bubble on this issue.

Jeez Juice
Economy would be the biggest worrying factor that would stop a UI - not a political one.

Like the re-building of Germany/Japan and the re-unification of Germany etc - the USA etc ploughed multi millions into this to build and support the new economy.
A UI needs no less than this.
Money to Ireland from UK, USA and EU. Why from USA & EU - well precedents have been set and Ireland is part of the EU and I would presume qualify for such a hand out to take over a 'weak state'.

[Mentalman]

What do you want from the people from the south?

Sack cloth and ashes apparently for having the temerity to be born in the 26 counties.

And yes, the views of an aging octogenarian long retired politician are totally representative of the beliefs of all sud politician, in fact the whole population...sweet divine.

[magickingdom]

Quote from Garret Fitzgerald....

who cares what the old crank says. when fianna fail politicians start talking like that then i'll start believing it. j70s post is spot on... saw some other fine gaeler saying they won the election because they gained 20 odd seats while the gov lost 9... beam me fcukin up

[muppet]

Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border.

We should have a poll on this. Is it because:

a) Ian Paisley has moved here?

b) Our banks are harder than yours?

c) Voters didn't think Gerry could even spell economy, stupid?

[magpie seanie]

Remind me that Ian Paisley (younger and actually an elected representative) is speaking for all people of the 6 counties the next time I hear him drone on.

[Evil Genius]

Economy would be the biggest worrying factor that would stop a UI - not a political one.

Like the re-building of Germany/Japan and the re-unification of Germany etc - the USA etc ploughed multi millions into this to build and support the new economy.
A UI needs no less than this.
Money to Ireland from UK, USA and EU. Why from USA & EU - well precedents have been set and Ireland is part of the EU and I would presume qualify for such a hand out to take over a 'weak state'.

Whilst the Yanks are capable of anything (witness how many gazillions of Dollars they're pissing up an Iraqi wall at the moment), there is no parallel to be drawn between the Marshall Plan in post-WWII Europe and Ireland a good 60 years later. In the former case, the Americans poured money into Europe and Japan since they were terrified, with good reason,  that these might fall into Communist hands.
There is no comparable threat to Ireland (unless you count the proto-Marxists in Sinn Fein and even they only got 6.9% of the vote in the recent Irish Election!)

As for the EU pouring money into Ireland - you're living in "cloud cuckoo land" if you think this will (or should) happen. The simple fact is that the Republic has already been in receipt of enormous subsidies throughout its entire membership of the EU and that particular "gravy train" is now pulling into the station, probably for good:

http://www.finfacts.com/irelandbusinessnews/publish/article_10003360.shtml

Taking one brief excerpt from the above, in 2004:

"The EU issued a detailed report on its 2004 Budget today and it shows that Ireland's net receipts from the EU Budget rose by €34 million to €1.594 billion.

The Irish at €396 per capita in net receipts from the EU, were the highest in the EU15 while the Dutch headed the net payers at €125 per head. Greeks benefited by €377 per capita, Portugal by €298 and Spain by €200. Germany paid $87 per capita into the EU Budget"

I've not bothered searching for the equivalent figures for the 1980's and 90's, but the divergence between net payers and net recipients was almost certainly higher, since the then smaller EU had a higher proportion of Members who were large and/or wealthy net payers (Germany, UK, Italy, Netherlands etc) and a smaller proportion of Members who were small and/or poorer net recipients (Irish Republic, Portugal etc).

With the accession of new countries such as Romania and Bulgaria, even the poorest parts of NI are considerably wealthier than all of the new countries.

Or, to put it another way, we are constantly being told that the Irish Republic is one of the world's wealthist countries. Therefore, why should it merit "aid" to oil the wheels of any political arrangement into which it has freely entered, when 90%+ of the world's population is considerably poorer than any Irish person? Half the world starving, and people here are expecting further handouts? Outrageous 

Mind you, for any form of Irish unity to come about, there are the political ramifications which need to be addressed, long before we start arguing over who's going to pay for it. On which point, your charmingly phrased final phrase ("taking over" NI) unwittingly demonstrates more than ever the perceptiveness of Garrett Fitzgerald's comment.

It is one of the great ironies of Irish history that the very people who most desire Irish unity (i.e. militant Irish Republicans) are often the self-same people whose words and actions do most to prevent it ever coming about. I would have hoped that 30 years of the Troubles would have demonstrated to all but the bigot or the fool that just as 800,000 reluctant Nationalists were never going to be cowed into meekly accepting their place in a United Kingdom, then a million more Unionists are never going to accept being "taken over" by a United [sic] Ireland. 

[magickingdom]

"The EU issued a detailed report on its 2004 Budget today and it shows that Ireland's net receipts from the EU Budget rose by €34 million to €1.594 billion.

that wouldnt cover half the fishing rights the eu got from irish waters. ever wonder why we an island nation surrounded by some of the best fishing grounds in the world dont have a fishing industry eg? well we sold it....

[SuperMac]

an end to the patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric that southern parties have getting away for years.... Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border.... Better to cement the bonds with Unionist friends and neighbours, with whom we have more in common.

Also heard Sir Garret Fitzthathcher saying to Mary Lou McDonald that one of the reasons SF did so bad in the free state elctions was that they had a british mp (Adams) as their main spokesman. B@STARD. But that's all you could expect from a west brit blueshirt anayway. We all remember John unionist Bruton and the 'tribal timebomb' regarding Mary McAleese. I'm from the 26 myself, but it's peculiar in that there are certain individuals down here who seem to be smug and dare I say, proud that british occupation and partition has been perserved. It shows the perversity of the state. BTW, I didn't vote SF.  Not an RSFer though I do read their paper from time to time. At least they kept their princibles.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents worth, " an end to the patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric ". 1000% correct, FF in particuliar. Nevertheless, I don't thing you could beat the king stoop, John Hume. How many times did we have to listen to " It's not the island that's divided, it's the people " sort of meaningless b*llshit. But the thing is, the stoops ALWAYS were full of patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric. They were the first ones to accept the northern state/unionist veto when around 1973 they voted at their conference (even the FG/Pd's refer to it as an Ard Fheis). That's at least 20 years before the free state parties. So, what why the hell were people in the six counties voting for them crowd for when they categorically stated they accepted partition around 1973 or so

" Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border ". Again, and though I agree in part, the stoops as a political movement were as just in favour of maintaining their political little fiefdoms and partition with it. It's like what James Connolly predicted when he wrote bout the "carnival of reaction" that would evolve if partition came about, that it would evolve on both sides of this border corrupt politicans whose only interest was self interest.

"Better to cement the bonds with Unionist friends and neighbours, with whom we have more in common". (Sound like a unionist troll ?) Cement bonds with british unionist bigots because the hypocritical politians both side of the border want to keep the brits occupying the north !!! If you cann't see the contradiction in that, I wouldn't start to explain   Not going to happen pal, don't bother trying. Despite all I have said, the majority of people on both sides of the border want to see a United Ireland. Economic integration will have to come first, and this is already happening. As corrupt as they are, the FF are the best to handle it, which says how pathetic the rest are. Coupled with the growing Nationalist population ( in electoral terms, it's closing by almost 1 and 1/4 % every 4 years, around 57% to 43% at the moment ), we will be well on the way to a United Ireland.

" then a million more Unionists are never going to accept being "taken over" by a United Ireland.  " When they no longer get the wink and nod from the britih govt. due to the greater Nationalist population in say, 20 years, they'll do exactly what their brethern did in the 26 co's when partition came about - nothing.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

It is one of the great ironies of Irish history that the very people who most desire Irish unity (i.e. militant Irish Republicans) are often the self-same people whose words and actions do most to prevent it ever coming about. I would have hoped that 30 years of the Troubles would have demonstrated to all but the bigot or the fool that just as 800,000 reluctant Nationalists were never going to be cowed into meekly accepting their place in a United Kingdom, then a million more Unionists are never going to accept being "taken over" by a United [sic] Ireland. 

Isn't it an awful shame that it took 30 years of warring to get Paisley to sit in an administration with, not just Taigs, but Republicans, where he couldn't even share a greeting with them before! Of course, being the genius??? that you so evidently are, this logic is total anathema to you, being as it is so soundly grounded in fact -- it is not rare that things have to get (sometimes much) worse, before they can ever improve. And the "800,000 reluctant Nationalists" may never have risen in resistance in the first place had they been treated with anything like the normal respect due to human peers. Moreover, more Unionists than you are obviously aware of are silently resigned to the eventuality of a reunited Ireland at some point, maybe not tomorrow, but in the not too distant future; and there's no equation between their situation and that of the six-county Nationalists, but I'll leave that for you to work out as an exercise in dialectics.

Sorry to puncture your neat, though vacuous, smug and trite little hypothesis.

[Evil Genius]

an end to the patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric that southern parties have getting away for years.... Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border.... Better to cement the bonds with Unionist friends and neighbours, with whom we have more in common.

Also heard Sir Garret Fitzthathcher saying to Mary Lou McDonald that one of the reasons SF did so bad in the free state elctions was that they had a british mp (Adams) as their main spokesman. B@STARD. But that's all you could expect from a west brit blueshirt anayway. We all remember John unionist Bruton and the 'tribal timebomb' regarding Mary McAleese. I'm from the 26 myself, but it's peculiar in that there are certain individuals down here who seem to be smug and dare I say, proud that british occupation and partition has been perserved. It shows the perversity of the state. BTW, I didn't vote SF.  Not an RSFer though I do read their paper from time to time. At least they kept their princibles.

Anyway, here's my 2 cents worth, " an end to the patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric ". 1000% correct, FF in particuliar. Nevertheless, I don't thing you could beat the king stoop, John Hume. How many times did we have to listen to " It's not the island that's divided, it's the people " sort of meaningless b*llshit. But the thing is, the stoops ALWAYS were full of patronising bullshit and lying anti-partitionist rhetoric. They were the first ones to accept the northern state/unionist veto when around 1973 they voted at their conference (even the FG/Pd's refer to it as an Ard Fheis). That's at least 20 years before the free state parties. So, what why the hell were people in the six counties voting for them crowd for when they categorically stated they accepted partition around 1973 or so

" Northern Nationalist take note, the biggest obstacle to a united Ireland lies south of the border ". Again, and though I agree in part, the stoops as a political movement were as just in favour of maintaining their political little fiefdoms and partition with it. It's like what James Connolly predicted when he wrote bout the "carnival of reaction" that would evolve if partition came about, that it would evolve on both sides of this border corrupt politicans whose only interest was self interest.

"Better to cement the bonds with Unionist friends and neighbours, with whom we have more in common". (Sound like a unionist troll ?) Cement bonds with british unionist bigots because the hypocritical politians both side of the border want to keep the brits occupying the north !!! If you cann't see the contradiction in that, I wouldn't start to explain   Not going to happen pal, don't bother trying. Despite all I have said, the majority of people on both sides of the border want to see a United Ireland. Economic integration will have to come first, and this is already happening. As corrupt as they are, the FF are the best to handle it, which says how pathetic the rest are. Coupled with the growing Nationalist population ( in electoral terms, it's closing by almost 1 and 1/4 % every 4 years, around 57% to 43% at the moment ), we will be well on the way to a United Ireland.

" then a million more Unionists are never going to accept being "taken over" by a United Ireland.  " When they no longer get the wink and nod from the britih govt. due to the greater Nationalist population in say, 20 years, they'll do exactly what their brethern did in the 26 co's when partition came about - nothing.

Now let me see, have I missed anyone from your list of "Traitors to the Republican Cause"?

Garrett Fitgerald, John Bruton, FG's Blueshirts (obviously);
"Certain individuals down here"
"FF in particular" (1000% correct, it seems)
The SDLP (and John Hume, in particular)
"People in the six counties who voted for [the Stoops]"
Those South of the Border providing "obstacles" (in part, at least)
"Corrupt, self-interested politicians" - North of the Border
"Corrupt, self-interested politicians" - South of the Border
"British Unionist Bigots" (naturally)
Seemingly everybody else, except:

Sinn Fein (though not enough to be worth a Vote?)
and
Republican Sinn Fein*

Still, what do the rest of us all know, anyhow? After all, it's not as if e.g. 95%+ of the population of Ireland ever voted in a Referendum to recognise the continued existence of partition, so long as a majority of people in Northern Ireland so wished, is it?  




* - Was it their sparkling Newspaper articles, their Principles, or the Heroic Blow for Liberation struck in Omagh which swung it for you?