Irish Swell British Army Ranks

[Hardy]

Well at least he's not doing it on the streets I guess.

He probably is - just that it's some other country's streets.

[Evil Genius]

Letter in today's Indo

A tale of two sons of Westport
Thursday November 27 2008
Your report (Irish Independent, November 25) on the burial of a British Royal Marine shows a great contrast involving two sons of Westport.

One, Major John McBride, fought in the Second Anglo-Boer war for the freedom of a small country being attacked by what was then the world's greatest empire. He again faced the same empire in arms when fighting for his own country's independence. He was executed for his troubles.

The other, Marine Robert McKibben, died serving the remnant of that same empire in an attempt to suppress the independence of an equally valiant people in Afghanistan. I am willing to bet who will be remembered by history.

BRIAN P O CINNEIDE

ESSENWOOD ROAD, DURBAN 4001, SOUTH AFRICA

So if McBride were alive today, no doubt he would be out in Afghanistan, helping those nice, peace-loving democrats in the Taliban bring justice and equality to all the people of their country, just as his Afrikaaner brothers-in-arms were determined to do for all the people of South Africa a century ago, then...

Quite the most fatuous comparison of its type any of us shall read this week, I'd say...

[Evil Genius]

It is clear (and you agree) that the British army get involved and are involved in illegal and morally wrong conflicts. Knowing this do you not think young people should refuse to join in this army and by extension illegal and morally wrong conflict?

You believe Britain's involvement in Iraq is wrong yet you think they should have a better class of killer there conducting that war. How can you justify this?

Why do I get the impression you are more concerned with pushing me into a corner and "winning" your point, than in finding out what I really think?

For the record, I consider that Blair lied to the Commons over the justification for going into Iraq, therefore his conduct broke the law. Consequently, I wish that Britian had not joined in the invasion of Iraq.
But we are where we are, so we must make the best of it. And if that means staying on there until such time as our presence starts to do more harm than good, then so be it. (You may well consider that the British presence in Iraq is already doing so, but that is a different matter).
In which case, whilst we are there, then I want to see the best, possible calibre of squaddie out there. Which considering the great majority of Army personnel don't spend their day shooting at Iraqis, and those who do are invariably acting in self-defence, does NOT mean I seek a "better class of killer".
As for new recruits, there are essentially two aspects of their service which need to be considered. The first is whether they have informed themselves properly of what service life entails. A wider, more representative recruitment base means that that well-informed recruits will be more likely to be selected. The second is their motives for joining. However, this must be a matter for the Army to judge, not the recruit himself. But similarly, the wider the recruiting pool, the less dependant the Army will be on recruits whose motives might be suspect.
As for soldiers who have already enlisted, they are always at liberty to resign if they feel that what they are being asked to do is morally unjustifiable. From what I understand, few are doing so; on the contrary, many are sure they are doing a worthwhile job, even in Iraq.
You may, of course, disagree with them, but if so, I would hope that you have reached that conclusion from objective analysis, rather than some simplistic conclusion such as "If they're Brits, then they must be wrong"  

[Declan]

"If they're Brits, then they must be wrong"

Any examples of where they have been right??

[Doogie Browser]

Since the end of the Empire, the British Army has continued to attract large numbers of recruits from some of the former colonies. I am not aware of this being especially controversial in any of those countries, the way it is in the Republic.
I'm pleased to see it myself, since not only does it preserve centuries-old traditions, but also because the widest possible recruiting base will lead to the best qualified army, not least in terms of the enormous commitment that these recruits bring.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnson_Beharry

I would doubt that it is large numbers, what with the well documented cases of racism within the w**ks of the British Army.  From distant memory there were very few people of black origin walking the streets with the Brits during the troubles either (I know the colonies would not all be of Black origin), I could be wrong but I would very much see see the British Army as a cold house for minorities, they have had many many problems with racism, sexism, homophobic bullying, intimidation of cadets at training schools etc. 
 

[mylestheslasher]

It is clear (and you agree) that the British army get involved and are involved in illegal and morally wrong conflicts. Knowing this do you not think young people should refuse to join in this army and by extension illegal and morally wrong conflict?

You believe Britain's involvement in Iraq is wrong yet you think they should have a better class of killer there conducting that war. How can you justify this?

Why do I get the impression you are more concerned with pushing me into a corner and "winning" your point, than in finding out what I really think?

For the record, I consider that Blair lied to the Commons over the justification for going into Iraq, therefore his conduct broke the law. Consequently, I wish that Britian had not joined in the invasion of Iraq.
But we are where we are, so we must make the best of it. And if that means staying on there until such time as our presence starts to do more harm than good, then so be it. (You may well consider that the British presence in Iraq is already doing so, but that is a different matter).
In which case, whilst we are there, then I want to see the best, possible calibre of squaddie out there. Which considering the great majority of Army personnel don't spend their day shooting at Iraqis, and those who do are invariably acting in self-defence, does NOT mean I seek a "better class of killer".
As for new recruits, there are essentially two aspects of their service which need to be considered. The first is whether they have informed themselves properly of what service life entails. A wider, more representative recruitment base means that that well-informed recruits will be more likely to be selected. The second is their motives for joining. However, this must be a matter for the Army to judge, not the recruit himself. But similarly, the wider the recruiting pool, the less dependant the Army will be on recruits whose motives might be suspect.
As for soldiers who have already enlisted, they are always at liberty to resign if they feel that what they are being asked to do is morally unjustifiable. From what I understand, few are doing so; on the contrary, many are sure they are doing a worthwhile job, even in Iraq.
You may, of course, disagree with them, but if so, I would hope that you have reached that conclusion from objective analysis, rather than some simplistic conclusion such as "If they're Brits, then they must be wrong"  

Your army have been in Iraq and Iran before EG with the same horrendous results. Personnally, I have nothing but disrespect for the type of soldier who joins and army to see some fighting action, or to be a sniper or because they want to kill. I have pity for the guy who joins the british army as they believe they are doing some good when clearly they are being used in illegal and immoral wars. The mass murder of civilians, the flaunting of the geneva convention, torture, propaganda and lies - these are what the British army stand for. It is impossible to be thinking rationally and then to say you were against the illegal invasion of Iraq (and all that goes with it as I have outlined above) but since we are there we should get a good class of killer to inflict themselves on the people of this country. Where are your morals on this EG. Why don't you stop towing this pro brit line and come out and support the innocents that die - the men, women and children that the british army (supposedly acting on your behalf) blows to bits. They could be your children that die but for your fortune to have been born in Ireland. Do you not feel some shame for this or are they just the famous "colateral damage" the generals coldly speak about?

[whiskeysteve]

"The Irish Defence Force - as the name suggests - is a defence force, it's not an army," he says.

"It's for purely domestic use. It simply can't compare with the opportunities on offer with the British army."

Opportunities to do what? Their motives are astounding. I would be absolutely ashamed to be related to these extremely naive (at best) eejits.

wee boys with guns

I'll never forget the day army recruiters came into our school and gave a presentation. Only happened once and very conveniently in the run up to the invasion of Iraq. First half was all about the non-combat oppurtunites (joining the army for sky diving, rock climbing, socialising and utter nonsense like that) - then the real shit started. Slides about the atrocities carried out by Saddam and justification for the war. A classmate of mine put it to them that the invasion was motivated by oil rather than self defence - and straight away up comes a new slide with a full list of Saddams arsenal - nuclear warheads, ICBMs, nerve gas, chemical/biological weapons, all the WMDs of the day. And of course a few years later it is revealed to be a shameless pack of lies.

The fact that someone took the decision to distribute that propaganda to schools is outrageous. Imagine that the same individuals who concocted that 'intelligence' as part of a recruitment drive to send young men and women out to kill and be killed still hold their positions in the army and government, never mind locked up as accomplices to mass murder.

Personally think it would be outrageous to join up and fight for those utter bastards

[Rav67]

Well said steve

[pintsofguinness]

He got his action and I want mine

How sad.

What a vile thing to say. Basically an admission that his motivation for being a soldier is to have the opportunity to try to kill people. Truly disgusting.

If they want to be a solider there is an Irish army but clearly they want "action" and we all know what that means, he wants to blow the brians of someone.  As hardy says, quite sad.
Will these be the boys we're crying for when they come out on the wrong side of the "action" they were looking for?

[magickingdom]

fair play to the father, at least he gets it in what must be an impossible time for him. i'm very sorry when any british soldier is killed but they are not heros in my book and should not be remembered as such. if God forbid some lad who wants to be a sniper gets killed then what of it, he made his bed...



Marine's father forgives killers

Marine Robert McKibben died in an explosion in Afghanistan last week

The County Down father of a Royal Marine who died in an explosion in Afghanistan last week has said he has forgiven his son's killers.

Robert McKibben, 32, was killed alongside another marine while on patrol in the Helmand province.

His father Anthony told the Mourne Observer that his son "was a lot like me, I believe that wherever he is now he has forgiven the men responsible.

"He was in someone else's country and understood the situation," he said.

Marine McKibben's remains were flown in to RAF Lyneham in Wiltshire on Wednesday.

His funeral is expected to take place next week in Westport, County Mayo, where he was raised.

A statement from his family in Mayo said "we are all extremely proud of our Robbie".

"He had very definite plans of how he wanted to live his life. He was always thoughtful, considerate and had an amazing sense of humour that touched so many lives.

"He was so full of life and was loved so much by his family and by all his friends. Robbie has left a huge void in our hearts and he will never be forgotten."

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

When you're a paid carrier of lethal arms in the service of another country, specifically when that same country pursues operations of occupation and suppression overseas, you're a mercenary, never a 'soldier'.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Thing I don't understand is why don't they just join the Irish army? Seems to be like these are young lads who are out looking for some action rather than peace keeping duties.

The Irish Defence Force - as the name suggests - is a defence force, it's not an army. It's for purely domestic use

Well that's not true for a start.

A friend of mine joined a couple of years ago and he was out in Afghanistan this year with the Royal Irish Regiment. He got his action and I want mine

Well good luck to him. I hope he doesn't get more than he bargained for.

A scary attitude and it'd be interesting to see if his British Army superiors still thought this lunatic was a suitable person to join their occupations abroad.

[Zapatista]

Why do I get the impression you are more concerned with pushing me into a corner and "winning" your point, than in finding out what I really think?

For the record, I consider that Blair lied to the Commons over the justification for going into Iraq, therefore his conduct broke the law. Consequently, I wish that Britian had not joined in the invasion of Iraq.
But we are where we are, so we must make the best of it. And if that means staying on there until such time as our presence starts to do more harm than good, then so be it. (You may well consider that the British presence in Iraq is already doing so, but that is a different matter).
In which case, whilst we are there, then I want to see the best, possible calibre of squaddie out there. Which considering the great majority of Army personnel don't spend their day shooting at Iraqis, and those who do are invariably acting in self-defence, does NOT mean I seek a "better class of killer".
As for new recruits, there are essentially two aspects of their service which need to be considered. The first is whether they have informed themselves properly of what service life entails. A wider, more representative recruitment base means that that well-informed recruits will be more likely to be selected. The second is their motives for joining. However, this must be a matter for the Army to judge, not the recruit himself. But similarly, the wider the recruiting pool, the less dependant the Army will be on recruits whose motives might be suspect.
As for soldiers who have already enlisted, they are always at liberty to resign if they feel that what they are being asked to do is morally unjustifiable. From what I understand, few are doing so; on the contrary, many are sure they are doing a worthwhile job, even in Iraq.
You may, of course, disagree with them, but if so, I would hope that you have reached that conclusion from objective analysis, rather than some simplistic conclusion such as "If they're Brits, then they must be wrong"  

I am not trying to point score. What I am trying to do is enlighten you. You Evil Genius are a victim. You are a victim of misinformation. I understand were this comes from. Whiskeysteve touched on it earlier. You reached a stage were you were so concrete in your view you had no problem letting the world know it. Now when you see that view is wrong your simply cannot accept it. It's only human. The defence automatically goes up and you become stronger in defending the lie. You then convince yourself more than ever and the spiral continually goes down. Like the child who does something wrong and when quizzed says "he told me to do it" and feels justified in that.

It's very hard to admit you have been wrong. The thing to remember is that when you see you have been wrong you must accept that. If you don't you will always be wrong and fooling no one but youself. It is clear to any person that the British army have a terrible and brutal history. They have ransacked the world. They have destroyed races, cultures and languages. Within Britain this is seen as a proud history. It is a shamefull history. Most people within Britain have been led to believe for most of their lives that being a superpower and ruling half the world with an iron fist is something to be proud of. Their victims know the other side of that Iron Fist and know that there is no pride in Britains history. Until the time comes when British army recruits are honestly educated they will flow to join this proud and powerfull army in the search of Britain lost glory.

The Irish are still victims to the British Colonial education system and still have the wrong view of what Britains role in the worlds is and was. Many Irish are ashamed of the fact they do not speak they Irish language while the British are proud that half the world speak theirs. Tjis is a reverse of how we should feel. The British tried to violently destroy our language and culture and replace with their own. Like the cuckoo the impostor tried to kill and rob another and replace it with their own. The British should be ashamed of levels the English language is spoken when they acknowledge how it happened.  

There is absolutely nothing new about Iraq and Afghanistan. You can take them alone to make your points but they do not come alone. You can say that you will wait until good comes from Iraq but they truth is there will be no good. This is an old story. It has been the case for 100s of years. There can be no good coming from it like in the history of the British army there is no good intended.

The type of educated and better solider you claim to be looking for is not the same type the BA are targeting and recruiting. The best educated solider to swell the British ranks is one well educated in taking orders and not ask questions. Reality can often hit home when a soilder is in a place like Iraq and the questions start to surface. When this happens you just replace it with another (weak) motive for doing what they do.

I watched an interview with some squadies in Afganistan and they were asked why they did it. The answer was that they were not there for Queen and Country (they may be the reasons they signed up though) or democracy but thier comrades. They said 'I am here to watch his back and he to watch mine. We are the ones out in the frontline and the most important person to me is the guy watching my back'. It became so localised that they point was completely missed.This weak argument is a diversion from the reality and has these guys had their heads in the sand going round in circles. Your perfectly educated soilder.

[his holiness nb]

A previous post summed it up, these guys are out for "guilt free murder".

They are as bad, if not worse than the scum they march beside in Iraq.

[Evil Genius]

What I am trying to do is enlighten you. You Evil Genius are a victim. You are a victim of misinformation. I understand were this comes from. Whiskeysteve touched on it earlier. You reached a stage were you were so concrete in your view you had no problem letting the world know it. Now when you see that view is wrong your simply cannot accept it. It's only human. The defence automatically goes up and you become stronger in defending the lie. You then convince yourself more than ever and the spiral continually goes down. Like the child who does something wrong and when quizzed says "he told me to do it" and feels justified in that.

It's very hard to admit you have been wrong. The thing to remember is that when you see you have been wrong you must accept that. If you don't you will always be wrong and fooling no one but youself.

So you're trying to "enlighten" me, then is it? By informing me I'm a "victim" - a "victim of misinformation" moreover. But help is at hand, since you "understand" me and "where this comes from". And not only am I so "concrete in my [false, misinformed] view", but I cannot even desist from "letting the world know it". Worse, when disabused of my error, I "simply cannot accept it"; then again, maye that's not so bad, since I am at least "human"*. Nonetheless, I appear doomed to go on forever "defending the lie", and "the spiral continually goes down". Foloowed by some "child", "wrong", "fooling no-one" etc etc etc etc.

Where might I have ended up without you, Zapatista? Out of the goodness of your heart, you are prepared to share the accumulated wisdom of your life and take the time to guide even the most incorrigeably recalcitrant of "victims" back onto the path of true enlightenment. Indeed, such is the total lack of condescension or superciliousness in your message, that the scales have finally fallen from my eyes.

Thank you, Zapatista, for you are surely an Irish Mandela, Gandhi, Mother Theresa and Schweizer all rolled into one. In my new state of grace, I shall no longer do Evil, nor consider myself a Genius.

P.S. Any tips on chatting up women? For with your powers of persuasion, you must be fighting the Supermodels off with a stick...



* - A bit of a relief, really, since I was beginning to fear I was a Labrador Puppy which, for want of proper housetraining from one who "understands", keeps tearing up the furniture...