Super 8s

Started by theticklemister, February 19, 2017, 10:55:16 PM

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BennyCake

Quote from: From the Bunker on July 22, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Why is this game being played?

Money for the Cork county board.

dublin7

Quote from: From the Bunker on July 22, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Why is this game being played?
You can't not play the game even though the result won't affect the league table. If a teams win the league in ANY sport before the season finishes do they just cancel all the remaining matches as the title has been won reagardless?

Rossfan

If it's a percentage of the gate Cork wont get the price of heating the water.
Billy Keane makes a good point in the Independent --
Cost €25 to stand in the Provincial grounds plus long costly round trips for the visitors.
Meanwhile the cost for Dubs on Hill 16 was €20 plus maybe €2 or €3 travel.
Assuming 4k Dubs went on the Terrace it's a subsidy of €20,000 to Dublin per game.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Rudi

Quote from: dublin7 on July 22, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 22, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Why is this game being played?
You can't not play the game even though the result won't affect the league table. If a teams win the league in ANY sport before the season finishes do they just cancel all the remaining matches as the title has been won reagardless?

Promotion and relagation reasons, this one does not apply here.

Owenmoresider

Quote from: dublin7 on July 22, 2019, 12:22:01 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 22, 2019, 11:51:14 AM
Why is this game being played?
You can't not play the game even though the result won't affect the league table. If a teams win the league in ANY sport before the season finishes do they just cancel all the remaining matches as the title has been won reagardless?
Most of those leagues will still have something riding on them, be it relegation issues or prize money (Premier League etc.) or draft placings and so on. Granted in the likes of the World Cup you might get this scenario but then the tickets for those games would have been long since sold and possibly sold out, so there's going to be a large crowd at it even if there's nothing to play for in reality. That's not exactly going to be an issue in Cork on Saturday week.

TheGreatest

Quote from: Rossfan on July 22, 2019, 12:26:08 PM
If it's a percentage of the gate Cork wont get the price of heating the water.
Billy Keane makes a good point in the Independent --
Cost €25 to stand in the Provincial grounds plus long costly round trips for the visitors.
Meanwhile the cost for Dubs on Hill 16 was €20 plus maybe €2 or €3 travel.
Assuming 4k Dubs went on the Terrace it's a subsidy of €20,000 to Dublin per game.

It is a good point.

On the flip side, there is a load of country folk living in Dublin from all counties, and when your team comes to town its good for them also, if not that often, but the likes of Mayo, Tyrone and Kerry fans get a lot of games in Croker yearly in championship. I never hear this being mentioned.



seafoid

Quote from: BennyCake on July 22, 2019, 11:06:28 AM
Tyrone have played 5 weeks in a row. Fans would have had to travel to Longford, Kildare, Clones, Roscommon and then Dublin. That's a lot of expense to put on fans. Plus ticket prices are too high.

Expecting fans to travel 5 weeks in a row (plus 2 more in the next 2 weeks) is taking the piss.
do you want the GAA to win the war against rugby in Cherrywood or not ?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Jayop

It's sad to say it but going to Croker for a game used to be an experience, something to savour, to look forward to and really soak up. Now it's a slog for all but the biggest games. Even Dublin fans used to only get playing in it for Leinster finals, AI semis and finals. Now it's week in and week out even for them to go watch a team that they already know in 95% of games will win at a canter. What's special about that?

For me the Super8 can be good but it really has to be made fairer. A good start this year was having the teams that won their province playing at home in the first leg. he next obvious thing is to take all the neutral games out of Corker, do away with the double headers and have them in neutral county grounds which will make a massive difference to those towns across the country and get use from all these white elephant grounds that are rarely if ever used at the moment.

The timing of them also needs to be looked at. Using Tyrone as an example here but the schedule for our players and fans has been really tough this year. If we make the AI then that's 11 games of championship football this summer. We've played 5 weeks in a row all games on the road, Longford, Kildare, Clones, Roscommon and Dublin. If I was going to each of those games with the wife and 2 kids then that would have cost me €300 in tickets, about €200 in diesel, and you'd easily say another €300 odd in incidentals, programs, bite to eat etc. That's a lot of money and too much for a lot of people to justify especially with another 2 games guaranteed now in another 2 weeks. Not sure much can be done there but if neutral grounds half way between the two counties were used then travel costs would be split.

Finally  proposal to make the groups a bit fairer would be to use a seeding system for the 2 qualifers in the groups..

This could work as follows. Dublin in one group and Roscommon are in one group. They would get the 1st and 3rd ranked teams through round four.

That would give a group of.
Dubs,
Rossies
Tyrone
Meath

And another group of.
Kerry
Donegal
Mayo
Cork

With the qualifiers this year it doesn't make much difference to the groups but over time I think this would be fairer.

Nb I used this ranking table which I find great from the end of the R4 qualifiers. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110650184&postcount=923

Redhand Santa

Quote from: Jayop on July 22, 2019, 03:56:34 PM
It's sad to say it but going to Croker for a game used to be an experience, something to savour, to look forward to and really soak up. Now it's a slog for all but the biggest games. Even Dublin fans used to only get playing in it for Leinster finals, AI semis and finals. Now it's week in and week out even for them to go watch a team that they already know in 95% of games will win at a canter. What's special about that?

For me the Super8 can be good but it really has to be made fairer. A good start this year was having the teams that won their province playing at home in the first leg. he next obvious thing is to take all the neutral games out of Corker, do away with the double headers and have them in neutral county grounds which will make a massive difference to those towns across the country and get use from all these white elephant grounds that are rarely if ever used at the moment.

The timing of them also needs to be looked at. Using Tyrone as an example here but the schedule for our players and fans has been really tough this year. If we make the AI then that's 11 games of championship football this summer. We've played 5 weeks in a row all games on the road, Longford, Kildare, Clones, Roscommon and Dublin. If I was going to each of those games with the wife and 2 kids then that would have cost me €300 in tickets, about €200 in diesel, and you'd easily say another €300 odd in incidentals, programs, bite to eat etc. That's a lot of money and too much for a lot of people to justify especially with another 2 games guaranteed now in another 2 weeks. Not sure much can be done there but if neutral grounds half way between the two counties were used then travel costs would be split.

Finally  proposal to make the groups a bit fairer would be to use a seeding system for the 2 qualifers in the groups..

This could work as follows. Dublin in one group and Roscommon are in one group. They would get the 1st and 3rd ranked teams through round four.

That would give a group of.
Dubs,
Rossies
Tyrone
Meath

And another group of.
Kerry
Donegal
Mayo
Cork

With the qualifiers this year it doesn't make much difference to the groups but over time I think this would be fairer.

Nb I used this ranking table which I find great from the end of the R4 qualifiers. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110650184&postcount=923

Would Dublin not be fairly half way/neutral for Tyrone/Cork and Kerry/Donegal? It would have been a logical enough choice for Mayo Meath too given a lot of Mayo people are based in Dublin. The Tyrone Cork game would have attracted a poor crowd wherever it was played. And I don't think the other two games I mentioned would have got as many people if played as two stand alone games somewhere outside Croke Park.

Jayop

Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 22, 2019, 04:11:19 PM
Would Dublin not be fairly half way/neutral for Tyrone/Cork and Kerry/Donegal? It would have been a logical enough choice for Mayo Meath too given a lot of Mayo people are based in Dublin. The Tyrone Cork game would have attracted a poor crowd wherever it was played. And I don't think the other two games I mentioned would have got as many people if played as two stand alone games somewhere outside Croke Park.

Yes in terms of distance absolutely it's a great location for ease of transport for those games you mentioned. But imagine that Tyrone/cork game was played in a 20000 ground with a full house, you'd have had a completely different atmosphere at the game. I just think days like that where you can hear everything the players are saying on the pitch for what should be a massive occasion is ruinous for the sport.

Redhand Santa

There was probably only a maximum of 3/4,000 there between Tyrone and Cork. There was even less there last year from the two counties when they played in Portlaois (around 10,000 there that day and mostly all in for the Armagh Roscommon game). Do you think more people from Tyrone would have travelled to somewhere like Portlaois that is harder to get to on Saturday past than Croke Park?

The only way you'd have got a half decent crowd was if one of the counties was at home. If you wanted to fill a neutral stadium it would have had to have been in a club ground.

Jayop

Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 22, 2019, 04:28:15 PM
There was probably only a maximum of 3/4,000 there between Tyrone and Cork. There was even less there last year from the two counties when they played in Portlaois (around 10,000 there that day and mostly all in for the Armagh Roscommon game). Do you think more people from Tyrone would have travelled to somewhere like Portlaois that is harder to get to on Saturday past than Croke Park?

The only way you'd have got a half decent crowd was if one of the counties was at home. If you wanted to fill a neutral stadium it would have had to have been in a club ground.

Fair point.

Owenmoresider

Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 22, 2019, 04:11:19 PM
Would Dublin not be fairly half way/neutral for Tyrone/Cork and Kerry/Donegal? It would have been a logical enough choice for Mayo Meath too given a lot of Mayo people are based in Dublin. The Tyrone Cork game would have attracted a poor crowd wherever it was played. And I don't think the other two games I mentioned would have got as many people if played as two stand alone games somewhere outside Croke Park.
An awful lot more of them are based in Mayo though. I know the outlook of those running the country is pretty much Dublin-centric, but surely that's taking it a bit far that we go putting on games in Dublin for the convenience of the relatively small number of ex-pats based there?

Blowitupref

#1648
Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 22, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 22, 2019, 09:47:09 AM
Super 8s need to be restructured or scrapped. The scheduling is terrible - teams coming through qualifiers playing up to 5 weeks in a row (not allowing for replays), then the semi-final is the weekend following the last round. There should be at least a week off before the semi-final.
It's also unfair and demeaning that provincial champions like Roscommon, who had to beat two Div 1 sides away from home to win their province, can end their season having to play out a meaningless game in Pairc Ui Rinn.
At this stage, I'd favour the knock-out QFs in a provincial ground.

The format this year actually probably gave Roscommon a better chance of making a semi final than the old format. The key game in the group for them was against Tyrone and they got it as a home match as opposed to Croke Park. They then got a second chance that they wouldn't previously have gotten. Unfortunately it was against the Dubs but their dominance is more of an issue than the format.

Dublin should not be getting two games in Croke Park though, that bit is a farce. Croke Park was the right venue for yesterdays double header but there was a poor crowd in on Saturday. Though no matter where Tyrone Cork was played it would have been a poor crowd (Portlaois was empty for the second half of the game last year with no atmosphere) and Croke Park was fairly neutral distance wise.

I think people are forgetting that there was regularly quarter final double headers with poor crowds depending on the pairings and there was regular hammerings. There have been big winning margins in this years super 8s but most games have been very competitive right up until the last 10 minutes. And the football on offer has been much more attacking than a few years back.

I don't think Roscommon were given a better chance especially with last years two All Ireland finalists in the group.

In the old format as Connacht champions they would have played one of Meath,Cork,Tyrone and i don't think they could have played Mayo again because of repeat pairing (open to correction there)

Even getting a the short straw in Tyrone and lost after a competitive display they could have gone off for the summer and be happy enough with their lot instead they had to face into the lions den last Saturday after a defeat and now have to finish the year off with a dead rubber game.  I agree like every other team in the super 8s Dublin should only get one game in Croke park.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Redhand Santa

Quote from: Blowitupref on July 22, 2019, 04:45:35 PM
Quote from: Redhand Santa on July 22, 2019, 10:33:23 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on July 22, 2019, 09:47:09 AM
Super 8s need to be restructured or scrapped. The scheduling is terrible - teams coming through qualifiers playing up to 5 weeks in a row (not allowing for replays), then the semi-final is the weekend following the last round. There should be at least a week off before the semi-final.
It's also unfair and demeaning that provincial champions like Roscommon, who had to beat two Div 1 sides away from home to win their province, can end their season having to play out a meaningless game in Pairc Ui Rinn.
At this stage, I'd favour the knock-out QFs in a provincial ground.

The format this year actually probably gave Roscommon a better chance of making a semi final than the old format. The key game in the group for them was against Tyrone and they got it as a home match as opposed to Croke Park. They then got a second chance that they wouldn't previously have gotten. Unfortunately it was against the Dubs but their dominance is more of an issue than the format.

Dublin should not be getting two games in Croke Park though, that bit is a farce. Croke Park was the right venue for yesterdays double header but there was a poor crowd in on Saturday. Though no matter where Tyrone Cork was played it would have been a poor crowd (Portlaois was empty for the second half of the game last year with no atmosphere) and Croke Park was fairly neutral distance wise.

I think people are forgetting that there was regularly quarter final double headers with poor crowds depending on the pairings and there was regular hammerings. There have been big winning margins in this years super 8s but most games have been very competitive right up until the last 10 minutes. And the football on offer has been much more attacking than a few years back.

I don't think Roscommon were given a better chance especially with last years two All Ireland finalists in the group.

In the old format as Connacht champions they would have played one of Meath,Cork,Tyrone and i don't think they could have played Mayo again because of repeat pairing (open to correction there)

Even getting a the short straw in Tyrone and lost after a competitive display they could have gone off for the summer and be happy enough with their lot instead they had to face into the lions den last Saturday after a defeat and now have to finish the year off with a dead rubber game.  I agree like every other team in the super 8s Dublin should only get one game in Croke park.

Roscommon were unlucky with the draw this year but under the old format they could have been equally as unlucky and drew Tyrone. I think it's fair to say they had a better chance of beating Tyrone in Hyde Park than Croke Park. If they'd done that they would have been odds on favourites to make the semi finals as a win v a knocked out Cork team in round 3 would have put them through.

One of the complaints about the old system was that every team in the country got a second chance except the provincial champions and the new format has solved that. Unfortunately ending up facing Dublin in croke park meant Roscommon more or less didn't have a second chance this year. The fact it was Dublin was probably a bigger factor in that than the venue.