Seanad Éireann - should it stay or should it go?

[muppet]

The people who didn't vote didn't give a damn. The people who voted gave enough of a damn to turn out and stop the power grab. Simple - that's how it works. Bleating about turnout is irrelevant. If you don't care enough to vote, how and why are we supposed to accommodate your opinion? Your opinion doesn't count by definition and the people are right by definition, no matter who doesn't like it.

All else is speculation. It's always a good day for democracy when attempted government manipulation of the constitution for their own benefit, not that of the people, is thwarted.

This vote is a victory for soundbytes over shambles.

'Power-grab' sounds great, but the history of the Seanad suggests that it never had any power. The Taoiseach has 9 arbitrary appointments out of 60 FFS. That is 15% of the seats!

The electorate had the opportunity to make 60 non-achieving politicians redundant, and they turned it down. We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

[Rossfan]

This vote is a victory for soundbytes over shambles.

'Power-grab' sounds great, but the history of the Seanad suggests that it never had any power. The Taoiseach has 9 arbitrary appointments out of 60 FFS. That is 15% of the seats!

The electorate had the opportunity to make 60 non-achieving politicians redundant, and they turned it down. We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

The Taoiseach gets to nominate 11.
Will anyone over 30 live to see this disgusting waste of time of an institution "reformed" ??

[LeoMc]

The referendum was very much a "when did you stop beating your wife?" Option .
Do you want poor oversight or no oversight?

Poor oversight is marginally better in that it could be reformed (and politicians could put the people first).

[Nally Stand]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

[Syferus]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

Nally, you wouldn't know where to get a Sinn Fein fridge magnet calendar, would you?

Was a bit drunk last week and threw a Shinner mate's treasured calendar behind the kitchen unit. It was a 2011-12 one too so it's a bit of a vintage item.

[trileacman]

We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

I take it you'll stop bitching now when the next kleptocratic move is made then?

[Nally Stand]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

Nally, you wouldn't know where to get a Sinn Fein fridge magnet calendar, would you?

Was a bit drunk last week and threw a Shinner mate's treasured calendar behind the kitchen unit. It was a 2011-12 one too so it's a bit of a vintage item.

Aye there should be one down the back of the kitchen unit where you left it, ya fcukin idiot.

[Syferus]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

Nally, you wouldn't know where to get a Sinn Fein fridge magnet calendar, would you?

Was a bit drunk last week and threw a Shinner mate's treasured calendar behind the kitchen unit. It was a 2011-12 one too so it's a bit of a vintage item.

Aye there should be one down the back of the kitchen unit where you left it, ya fcukin idiot.

I'm just back after trying, I don't fit.

[Nally Stand]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

Nally, you wouldn't know where to get a Sinn Fein fridge magnet calendar, would you?

Was a bit drunk last week and threw a Shinner mate's treasured calendar behind the kitchen unit. It was a 2011-12 one too so it's a bit of a vintage item.

Aye there should be one down the back of the kitchen unit where you left it, ya fcukin idiot.

I'm just back after trying, I don't fit.

I'm afraid that ain't my problem. Maybe dispel some of that hot air and have another try.

[Maguire01]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

But it was Gerry's argument, before Pearse won the internal debate:

"That is not real reform; it is power grabbing. It may be a very democratic coup but it is a coup none the less. There is more power for government, less accountability and democracy and fewer checks and balances against political abuse and patronage."

And i'd imagine if the polls had been showing in favour of retention early on, SF's position would have been different on this. It was pure opportunism (just as it was with FF in the opposite position). With the northern element especially, SF's position made absolutely no sense - and they were well out of line with their voters.

Yes, the Seanad has limited power as it stands, but abolishing it would have removed any possibility for there to ever be an effective challenge to the Executive. With the whip system in the Dail, the opposition is totally powerless. I can't see any major shift coming there, regardless of who is in power.

[Hardy]

The people who didn't vote didn't give a damn. The people who voted gave enough of a damn to turn out and stop the power grab. Simple - that's how it works. Bleating about turnout is irrelevant. If you don't care enough to vote, how and why are we supposed to accommodate your opinion? Your opinion doesn't count by definition and the people are right by definition, no matter who doesn't like it.

All else is speculation. It's always a good day for democracy when attempted government manipulation of the constitution for their own benefit, not that of the people, is thwarted.

This vote is a victory for soundbytes over shambles.

'Power-grab' sounds great, but the history of the Seanad suggests that it never had any power. The Taoiseach has 9 arbitrary appointments out of 60 FFS. That is 15% of the seats!

The electorate had the opportunity to make 60 non-achieving politicians redundant, and they turned it down. We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

Muppet, I think you're missing the point of those of us who see this as something of a victory for democracy, or at least a slap in the jaw (a "wallop" even?) to an arrogant government as a reminder that it can't take the meek acquiescence of the electorate for granted.

Nobody is defending the Seanad  as currently constituted. The fact that it is undemocratic doesn't mean that the attempt to abolish the bicameral system was not also an attempted diminution of our democratic oversight of the politicians. Does nobody see any validity in the argument that a parliament of Healy-Raes, Wallaces, Aherns and Shatters needs to be watched?

Yes, I know we elect them. But that's the problem. Democracy is imperfect. It gave you Unionist hegemony in the North for fifty years, for instance. A Senate of Donie Cassidys and Paschal Mooneys isn't going to do the job, but an abolished Seanad has no chance in perpetuity of being the body that can do it. A reformed Seanad has some chance of making a difference. Cynicism about the possibility of ever reforming the Oireachtas is perhaps understandable, but doesn't yesterday at least provide a hint of hope that the electorate is not entirely toothless in the fight for reform?

[muppet]

We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

I take it you'll stop bitching now when the next kleptocratic move is made then?

Of course not.

Just because the majority fall for it all the time doesn't mean I have to.

[muppet]

The people who didn't vote didn't give a damn. The people who voted gave enough of a damn to turn out and stop the power grab. Simple - that's how it works. Bleating about turnout is irrelevant. If you don't care enough to vote, how and why are we supposed to accommodate your opinion? Your opinion doesn't count by definition and the people are right by definition, no matter who doesn't like it.

All else is speculation. It's always a good day for democracy when attempted government manipulation of the constitution for their own benefit, not that of the people, is thwarted.

This vote is a victory for soundbytes over shambles.

'Power-grab' sounds great, but the history of the Seanad suggests that it never had any power. The Taoiseach has 9 arbitrary appointments out of 60 FFS. That is 15% of the seats!

The electorate had the opportunity to make 60 non-achieving politicians redundant, and they turned it down. We deserve the banking  kleptocracy we live in.

Muppet, I think you're missing the point of those of us who see this as something of a victory for democracy, or at least a slap in the jaw (a "wallop" even?) to an arrogant government as a reminder that it can't take the meek acquiescence of the electorate for granted.

Nobody is defending the Seanad  as currently constituted. The fact that it is undemocratic doesn't mean that the attempt to abolish the bicameral system was not also an attempted diminution of our democratic oversight of the politicians. Does nobody see any validity in the argument that a parliament of Healy-Raes, Wallaces, Aherns and Shatters needs to be watched?

Yes, I know we elect them. But that's the problem. Democracy is imperfect. It gave you Unionist hegemony in the North for fifty years, for instance. A Senate of Donie Cassidys and Paschal Mooneys isn't going to do the job, but an abolished Seanad has no chance in perpetuity of being the body that can do it. A reformed Seanad has some chance of making a difference. Cynicism about the possibility of ever reforming the Oireachtas is perhaps understandable, but doesn't yesterday at least provide a hint of hope that the electorate is not entirely toothless in the fight for reform?

I think you win your own argument Hardy.

The Seanad is completely undemocratic, so a no vote was not much of a victory for democracy.

[Hardy]

So what was the reason for the attempted abolition of the Seanad?

[Nally Stand]

Muppet beat me to it on this but all the talk of it being a powergrab is pure nonsense. The senate has next to no power and the power it does have, it doesn't use. A red herring argument.

But it was Gerry's argument, before Pearse won the internal debate:

"That is not real reform; it is power grabbing. It may be a very democratic coup but it is a coup none the less. There is more power for government, less accountability and democracy and fewer checks and balances against political abuse and patronage."

And i'd imagine if the polls had been showing in favour of retention early on, SF's position would have been different on this. It was pure opportunism (just as it was with FF in the opposite position). With the northern element especially, SF's position made absolutely no sense - and they were well out of line with their voters.

Yes, the Seanad has limited power as it stands, but abolishing it would have removed any possibility for there to ever be an effective challenge to the Executive. With the whip system in the Dail, the opposition is totally powerless. I can't see any major shift coming there, regardless of who is in power.

Ah get over yourself. I didn't mention SF in my post. I have already stated that I had reservations about its abolition as it would see less six county representation participation in Dublin.
I only stated my opinion that it is hardly a power grab when the seanad has next to no power anyway, and doesn't use the small bit of power it does have. So if the only motivation was grabbing power, it would be a very bothersome and risky campaign for very minimal reward.