Syria

[Esmarelda]

Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.

[brokencrossbar1]

Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.

It may only be one mans opinion but Fisk is considered one of the most knowledgeable and respected journalists covering the Middle East and his opinion has serious gravitas. It really brings into question the actions of the US, British and French governments

[Esmarelda]

Many, many journalists have been casting doubt over the attacks. Robert Fisk is obviously reputable enough for people to actually start questioning it. Of course he's relying on one man's version of events so it's hardly evidence. Not that any of it matters of course.

It may only be one mans opinion but Fisk is considered one of the most knowledgeable and respected journalists covering the Middle East and his opinion has serious gravitas. It really brings into question the actions of the US, British and French governments

My point was that it's good that it's in the mainstream media, but that it's strange how so many people seemed to have to wait for Fisk to write his article before there was any question marks over the attack.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Renowned conspiracy theorist Admiral Lord West calling into doubt the gas attacks.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foj29LIXpy4&feature=youtu.be

[sid waddell]

When you threaten people with death you can cover up anything...

Syrian medics 'subjected to extreme intimidation' after Douma attack
Doctors say those who treated patients after attack have been told they and their families will be targeted if they speak out

The head of the largest medical relief agency in Syria claims that medics who responded to the suspected gas attack in Douma have been subjected to "extreme intimidation" by Syrian officials who seized biological samples, forced them to abandon patients and demanded their silence.

Dr Ghanem Tayara, the director of the Union of Medical Care and Relief Organisations (UOSSM) said doctors responsible for treating patients in the hours after the 7 April attack have been told that their families will be at risk if they offer public testimonies about what took place.

A number of doctors who spoke to the Guardian this week say the intimidation from the regime has increased in the past five days, a timeframe that coincides with the arrival in Damascus of a team from the Organisation for the Prevention of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which aims to determine whether chemical weapons were used. All the medics insisted on anonymity, citing the fear for their lives and those of their families.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/17/syria-crisis-medics-intimidated-over-douma-gas-attack

[sid waddell]

If you have nothing to hide, why attack a UN reconnaissance team?

A UN security team doing reconnaissance at the site of an attack in the Syrian town of Douma has come under gunfire, the head of the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has said, further delaying the arrival of chemical weapons inspectors.

The OPCW director general, Ahmet Üzümcü , told a meeting at the organisation's headquarters in The Hague on Wednesday that the security team had been forced to withdraw.

Üzümcü said that when a reconnaissance team arrived at one site, a large crowd gathered and the team withdrew. At a second site "the team came under small-arms fire and an explosive was detonated. The reconnaissance team returned to Damascus."

The delay in the inspectors' arrival, 10 days after the attack, will raise fresh concerns over the relevance of the OPCW investigation and possible evidence-tampering.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/18/arrival-of-chemical-inspectors-in-douma-delayed-by-gunfire

[brokencrossbar1]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

[seafoid]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)

[brokencrossbar1]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)

I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.

[sid waddell]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

Robert Fisk is a reputable journalist. He is also part of the "mainstream media", if that's what you want to call it.

I find it very interesting that those who generally dismiss "mainstream media" reports about what happens in Syria now accept a "mainstream media" report without question.

I also find it interesting that those who quote Fisk's article omit to mention that it states that the doctor he talked to used the same terms that the Syrian regime use.

As Dr Assim Rahaibani announces this extraordinary conclusion, it is worth observing that he is by his own admission not an eyewitness himself and, as he speaks good English, he refers twice to the jihadi gunmen of Jaish el-Islam [the Army of Islam] in Douma as "terrorists" – the regime's word for their enemies, and a term used by many people across Syria.

So I think we can say our doctor is not exactly an impartial observer, and it's pretty obvious Fisk knows this.

And given that so many people have been bussed out to Idlib, I think we can probably say with some certainty that it wouldn't be a great idea for those remaining to publicly voice opinions which go against the line of the Assad regime.

Fisk also says this:

France, meanwhile, has said it has "proof" chemical weapons were used, and US media have quoted sources saying urine and blood tests showed this too. The WHO has said its partners on the ground treated 500 patients "exhibiting signs and symptoms consistent with exposure to toxic chemicals".

At the same time, inspectors from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW) are currently blocked from coming here to the site of the alleged gas attack themselves, ostensibly because they lacked the correct UN permits.

The Syrian regime and the Russians say the area is "secured".

Yet a UN team has come under attack.

So, either the Syrians and the Russians are lying when they say the area is secured, or they were the ones attacking the UN team.

Why would they do this? 

[sid waddell]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)

I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.

Yeah, but this conflict has been ongoing since 2011, and we still don't have western boots on the ground in any meaningful way.

For years people said that that was because Syria didn't have much oil.

Can't have it both ways.

[brokencrossbar1]

I know Sid there are plenty of questions about the whole thing and I'm not going to attempt to portray myself as knowing much about it. I question both sides version of events. Like everything they all have agendas, as does Robert Fisk etc. The reality is that for all the information we receive we really know FA squared.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

Not sure anyone here is taking Fisk's word without question.  I posted a link to the article because it is by a reputable journalist calling into question the line that has been given in the media about gas attacks, and thus deserves attention.  And because he, like the British military people I also linked, cannot be dismissed as a crank, conspiracy theorist or Russian puppet.

Regarding the gas attack, if that's what it was, the U.N. has claimed that both sides in Syria have used chemical weapons.  http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/. So if there was indeed a gas attack, it is hardly a huge leap to wonder whether the rebels rather than Assad's forces were behind it.

And in any event, to bomb Syria before examining evidence regarding what happened, well, that's back in "but Saddam has WMD, we know this" territory.

[seafoid]

In every conflict there are 2 different 'truths'. Each side has their own 'truth'. It happened here for years in NI. I saw it at first hand. The propaganda machine of Assad and the western powers are in full flow. I would believe Robert Fisk, as I've read and listened to him an awful lot over the years and he comes across as a well versed and intelligent man who doesn't cow down to MSM tactics. That doesn't mean that everything he writes is absolutely correct but I give him a lot of credence. The reality is that there is an agenda here....presumably oil....and the only real winners will be the corporates in the oil and arms industry.

Syria doesn't have much oïl
Russia wants to keep its base in Tartus which gives it access to the Med.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_naval_facility_in_Tartus

Iran wants to consolidate Shia power. Hezbollah are Lebansese Shia and Assad's sect is effectively Shia.
The Christians in Syria do not want Sunni rule.
The Sunnis are a mess (ISIS etc)

I'm has some levels of oil and is apparently one of the larger oil countries in the Middle East but it is a key strategic point for oil and gas pipelines. Like all countries in the area there are plenty of religious disputes but at the abckmofmit all these disputes are flames at this stage in history purely for economic reasons. The US and Russia would not be interested in this area unless there were financial or strategic benefits in it.

Syria is 59th
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_oil_production

I think this is more geopolitical than anything else
US power is fading. Russia is messing. Iran is consolidating what it achieved in Iraq.

[sid waddell]

Not sure anyone here is taking Fisk's word without question.  I posted a link to the article because it is by a reputable journalist calling into question the line that has been given in the media about gas attacks, and thus deserves attention.  And because he, like the British military people I also linked, cannot be dismissed as a crank, conspiracy theorist or Russian puppet.

Regarding the gas attack, if that's what it was, the U.N. has claimed that both sides in Syria have used chemical weapons.  http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/08/24/u-n-claims-syrian-regime-and-islamic-state-used-chemical-weapons/. So if there was indeed a gas attack, it is hardly a huge leap to wonder whether the rebels rather than Assad's forces were behind it.

And in any event, to bomb Syria before examining evidence regarding what happened, well, that's back in "but Saddam has WMD, we know this" territory.

Yeah but the same questions were asked after last year's chemical attack.

"Why would Assad's regime do this now"?

They did.

CBS News went to Douma and found this.



They also found people who backed up that it was a chemical attack.

Douma was the last rebel-held town near Damascus, and the attack led to the weekend missile strikes by the U.S., Britain and France, targeting Syria's alleged chemical weapons facilities. On Monday, CBS News made it to the house where the suspected chemical attack took place.

"All of a sudden some gas spread around us,"  one neighbor recounted. "We couldn't breathe, it smelled like chlorine."

CBS News correspondent Seth Doane was one of the first Western journalists to reach the site of the alleged chemical attack in Douma -- brought to the heavily damaged building by Syrian security forces. He found residents who spoke of choking on acrid gas after a canister landed on the roof of the building.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-inside-douma-the-site-of-apparent-chemical-attack-2018-04-16/

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/syria-gas-attack-inspectors-opcw-douma-un-bashar-assad-russia/