A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[armaghniac]

The way forward a hundred years ago would have been American chairmanship of a process involving all sides, a bit like 80 years later, and some American ideas about religious freedom to be incorporated into the constitution. But the British were determined to keep neutrals out.

[trailer]

There was plenty of Protestants down South and they had to endure Catholic laws. Contraception was outlawed until the 1980s (every sperm is sacred) and divorce until the 1990s after a failed referendum in the 1980s. Parties like Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil did not for example support the divorce referendum. It wasn't just bishops; the Catholic people and the Catholic politicians were every bit as bad. It took us an awful long time to grow up. It's no that long since half the country were gone mad chasing moving statues. Even some bishops were aghast at that nonsense.

This implies that Protestants were necessarily in favour of divorce etc. As current DUP policy shows, this idea that Protestants favour anything goes is bollix.

Yes, get that the DUP types are ultra conservative. But the main point is we were not a plural society. Catholicism ruled the roost. Sure even when our first Protestant president Douglas Hyde died, the majority of Catholic politicians did not attend his funeral. Fianna Fail stayed at home, and FG attended but decided to stay in their cars outside. And after all that man did for Irish culture. Lots of other examples. We sold babies sold out of wedlock. We banned books, forced teachers like John McGahern out of a job. We were a shocking bunch down South. And in a United Ireland we would still have been a shocking bunch. And if people like Padraic Pearse (a bigger headcase than Dev) got their way, we'd have been even worse.

So when we're discussing any future Ireland all this must be remembered. This is the the position that Unionism may come from. And their fears are not unfounded. The challenge is for us to build in safety nets for Unionism in a future Ireland. Step 1 is a functioning and well run Stormont government. This is why SF's position is stupid and ill thought out. An agreed Ireland is the way forward, not a 50%+1 and suck it up vote. To be prosperous for the next 100 years all sides must buy into the future of Ireland and all are capable of making a worthwhile contribution.

[BennyCake]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

[johnnycool]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

[BennyCake]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

[trailer]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

[BennyCake]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

[Eamonnca1]

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

There are nuances within unionism. Some are anti ILA like the DUP. Some would be ambivalent and don't care about it. Others would be interested in learning more about Irish but are put off by the politicisation of it. And others are fluent Irish speakers.

[trailer]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

All unionists are against everything and therefore we must not try. Is this your position?

[general_lee]

On the whole 50+1 thing, unionists are simply going to have to like it or lump it. The thing is, things will never be as bad for them in a United Ireland as they were for nationalists in the northern state and therefore scaremongering of violence is pointless. Unionists will be welcomed into a United Ireland. Likewise anyone who wishes is welcome to move to Britain.

[BennyCake]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

All unionists are against everything and therefore we must not try. Is this your position?

Try, by all means.

But history shows that when unionism is threatened it comes out biting. Ulster covenant, civil rights marches, workers strikes, Anglo Irish agreement, fallout from Drumcree parades, fleg protests. Unionists won't even discuss how a UI might work, as that will already show that they have moved one inch from their "never never never" position.

[Eamonnca1]

Try, by all means.

But history shows that when unionism is threatened it comes out biting. Ulster covenant, civil rights marches, workers strikes, Anglo Irish agreement, fallout from Drumcree parades, fleg protests. Unionists won't even discuss how a UI might work, as that will already show that they have moved one inch from their "never never never" position.

Some, we'll call them Type A, will come out biting. Others, we'll call them Type B, will be willing to make it work. The question becomes, how do we maximise the number of Type Bs and minimise the number of Type As? A lot depends on how the distinct identity of unionists is reflected in the institutions of the new state.

[balladmaker]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

[BennyCake]

We need to get to a place where united Ireland vs the Union is not green vs orange ... for those who promote a UI, they need to show why it is better both culturally and economically.  Likewise, those who promote the status quo of the union, need to explain in great detail as to why the union is better.  Let's have that big discussion and see where it goes, it may take the next 10+ years to have it, but let's have it.  Just demanding one or the other blindly does not suffice.

IMO NI is a failed entity, Unionists have failed NI, partition has failed this whole island.  But my opinion is worth nothing unless I back it up with hard facts.  My unionist colleagues in work have no argument to the economic fact that NI is a public sector dependent basket case.  Where's Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, Intel, IBM, HP etc etc based in the north?  Nowhere is the answer.

Successive British governments and their policies here have helped make the north a basket case. That's why there's no sign of google or Apple up here.

[smelmoth]

Trailer, a 50+1 vote is all you're going to get, if you're lucky. 1 million or so unionists aren't going to come quietly.

There will always be the died in the wool types on both sides, but the onus in a UI is to keep this group as small a minority group as possible on the PUL side.

Good luck with that.

The only way there'll be a UI, is to get your 50+1. But hang on tight for another few decades, while the troubles return with a vengeance. That'll be the price of a UI.

So you say. But you haven't even tried.

If you can't get unionists on board with an ILA, are they seriously going to consider the possibilities of even discussing a UI?

But what ILA is it? There are potential ILAs that you couldn't get a majority of nationalists to back. If ILA is to be a political football is it not time to publish the SF version so individually we can decide if we would back it?