Paul Kimmage interviews Sean Cavanagh

Started by Jinxy, September 09, 2018, 08:44:59 PM

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trileacman

Quote from: APM on September 17, 2018, 11:12:09 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 17, 2018, 10:44:53 AM
Oh really? Why did you pick James McConnell?

Fair enough point - pick any preacher!

Quote from: nrico2006 on September 17, 2018, 10:47:54 AM
I'd let him join the youth team. 

If you are being genuine, then I would say fair play - I'm not so sure I'd feel the same, no more so than if the parish priest was coming into the club to say a rosary with the u14s before a championship final.  I go to mass weekly, so have no problem with religion per se. But I would have a major issue with it being foisted upon people who haven't asked for it. 

My major issue in all of this is that we assume that all gaelic footballers are catholic and that the only ones that would want to play are catholic.  Therefore, why wouldn't this be a problem.  That is a very dangerous assumption and that's what gets my goat about this.

To be honest you're just foisting atheism upon your child the same way in which Harte is foisting Catholicism upon his team. So your kid wants to play soccer for a youth team and you refuse due to the religious habits of a senior side he might never have any involvement in? That's shitty parenting.

What if your kid grows up to be agnostic and sees the dressing room prayer as a harmless way to foster team bonding? What if you kid grows up to be religious and sees the prayer sessions as an integral part of life?

Hartes managing a group of 22-30 year olds not pre-schoolers. If they've qualms about the religious elements of the experience let them voice it with Harte, their old enough to fight there own battles with an aging county manager in the twilight of his career. Enough of these one man crusaders against the slowly diminishing role of Catholicism in the GAA.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

Itchy

Quote from: trueblue1234 on September 17, 2018, 10:07:17 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 17, 2018, 09:54:53 AM
Quote from: APM on September 17, 2018, 09:11:19 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on September 17, 2018, 08:55:18 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 14, 2018, 01:58:50 PM
Quote from: Zulu on September 14, 2018, 12:38:38 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 14, 2018, 11:01:04 AM
Quote from: westbound on September 14, 2018, 10:49:01 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on September 14, 2018, 10:31:18 AM
Quote from: Evil Genius on September 14, 2018, 01:04:17 AM
Quote from: APM on September 10, 2018, 09:51:35 AM
I know this was nothing new, but the stuff on Mass and the Rosary for me is something that the Tyrone CB should be looking very strongly at.  Totally inappropriate given the message it sends out to those with other faiths and none, that have an interest in playing Gaelic Football.
Noticed an reference to this elsewhere, so took a quick look to see what the reaction was on this forum.

Frankly, I'm shocked - though not surprised - that this particular aspect of Cavanagh's book doesn't merit a thread of its own (or at least some comment from more than one or two individuals).

I mean, is no-one else astonished, even outraged, that a team manager could get away with imposing his personal religious leanings on an entire team, to the exclusion of those who may feel differently?

i read a lot of stuff about sledging and foul play etc, but there is at least some possible redress (referee) or comeback (retaliation) to those things, but what can someone on the Tyrone panel who doesn't agree say or do to this? Speak out and never play for the county again?

And all that's BEFORE you get to the context of sport and society in  NI.

Could you imagine the shitstorm if eg the Linfield manager required his players eg to take part in some sort of Orange Order parade, or British armed forces commemoration, or attend a Free Presbyterian service?

It would be roundly and publicly condemned, with the governing body clamping down immediately, and QUITE RIGHTLY too, imo. In fact, it's unthinkable. (And I say that as someone who pretty much despises Linfield, btw).

"GAA For All (Protestants need not apply)"

Those aren't accurate comparisons - I'd say an accurate comparison would be attending a church service, and the comparisons you've chosen are telling about you, but your general point is valid. (On a slight tangent though, weren't Irish league players forced to take part in a ceremony and have an anthem they don't recognise as theirs played as though it were recently??)

I don't see it as a big imposition at all, but nonetheless everyone should have their own free choice - I haven't seen any evidence yet that they didn't. If anyone went to MH and said, I'm not comfortable, do you really think they would have suffered repercussions re selection? I doubt it very much. It would seem noone involved had an issue (Unlike the Irish league example I mentioned earlier actually).

The majority of Irish catholics are brought up with the ritual of mass, when they have their own free choice they'll all attend weddings, funerals, mass at easter/christmas, for whatever reason. A mass before games in this context isn't a big deal. Irish catholicism isn't taken that seriously, its just a routine for many, and I think thats the context it needs to be taken in. its not forcing your religious views onto others, as it is being portrayed.

I think you missed the point there.
Most Irish catholics wouldn't have a major problem with it. But What about somebody who isn't catholic? It's a pretty big deal to anyone of any other religion (or no religion).  It could certainly be viewed as 'forcing' your catholic views onto non catholics.
Obviously, we don't know how much 'forcing' was done, but all managers want players to do things as a team. Therefore it's likely that everyone was strongly encouraged to go as a team!

I'm not missing the point. The players were all from a catholic background. The hypothetical situation you describe didn't occur. If it had, I'm sure it would have been dealt with in the proper manner. MH would of course have been aware of the situation and adjusted accordingly. He is there to build bonds and win matches, not convert people to catholicism.

At the end of the day, this was something willingly partaken in by a group of people comfortable with the environment they were in. What we now have is people outside that environment theorising about what took place, or could have took place, or how players probably weren't comfortable but weren't able to say anything....none of which I believe for a second.

And of course, it could be noted that if there was an issue the captain should surely be the person to bring that up with the management team at the time. Instead he sniped about it later, and hasn't chosen to point out that everyone seemed satisfied with the arrangement (if there'd been any murmurings you can bet he'd have written about them!)


You don't know that to be the case yet your saying others are theorising, surely you're just doing the same. I doubt very much that 30 odd twentysomethings in any Gaelic football squad are practicing Catholics and believe in God. Personally I'd be very annoyed in that was asked of me in a team setting and I think many younger players/fringe players etc. would feel they may not be able to raise their concerns. Harte is in a position of Tyrone GAA authority and a religious man himself, he shouldn't have mixed them together. It was totally out of order IMO.

There hasn't been the slightest murmurings of complaint from those who have ever partaken. Many of these have also left the panel now, so aren't restricted by the fear of MH that some posters would have you believe. So in the absence of a shred of evidence to the contrary, despite ample resources and time for such to be found, I think I'm entitled to form the opinion noone had an issue with it.

I agree completely that they are all very unlikey to be practicing catholics - the point the rest of the post made is that, when brought up as a catholic, you still partake in rituals when it suits - weddings, funerals, christmas, easter - without it costing you a thought. I think the same relevance should be placed on this ritual (i.e. not that much).

Good post which is very accurate.  Additionally, I doubt there are many top protestant forwards in Tyrone that we are missing out on.  I would be interested to see how many protestants are actually playing club football in Tyrone or any other of the counties in the North.

This attitude is a complete joke.  You need to wake up to yourself. 

Imagine the same conversation on the OWC forum.  "Sure what odds if Glentorinfield bring in Pastor James McConnell before the games for a prayer service.  There aren't too many Catholics playing in the Irish League and most of them play for Cliftonville anyway". This is what we call institutional sectarianism. 

What part of this don't you understand? It is not the players that you are currently missing out on in Tyrone - it is the long term perception of the GAA as an exclusively catholic organisation.  This applies as much to lapsed catholic families in Dublin, to protestants in the North, to Muslims in Ballyhaunis or to a catholics themselves that aren't comfortable with religion being brought into the changing room. 

It is also a concern that Mickey Harte's perception of the GAA is exclusively catholic, so much so, that he takes this approach.

Wise up.  Institutional sectarianism - good one.  The fact of the matter is that most GAA players are catholic.  Very few protestants play and I don't see that changing.  Do I have any issue with them playing?  Of course not, it would be great if it was more welcoming to protestants and became more inclusive.  However, in this case that you are getting your knickers in a twist over, a manager has taken his team to mass before games.  Harte knows the makeup of his squad, which I assume is all catholic, therefore he has done what he has done on this basis.  I doubt he would have arranged this if the squad had members of other faiths included.  I'm sure a lot of fellas didn't really want to go, moreso because they couldn't be bothered rather than the fact that they are extremely offended.  They had a choice still.  I am Catholic, but its been a long time since I was at mass, really because I have other things I would rather do.  If I was in the squad, I wouldn't have wanted to go but I probably would have went as it is no big deal and I've been hundreds of times before.  As Haranguerer said, you partake in rituals when the need arises - weddings, funerals, Christmas, Easter etc, without it costing you a thought.  I'm sure the players that attended went without much mulling over required, its only mass after all.

Look I'm a Mickey Harte supporter. I wouldn't want anyone else in there managing Tyrone for the time being as I think he's the best at what he does. But I can't agree with this attitude.
It's not about whether there is a fantastic Protestant playing out there at the  minute that we're missing out on. It's the perception that the Tyrone team is all catholic and that it is part of the culture. The knock on effect of that is that some protestants that were maybe thinking of playing, or parents of children who were thinking of sending their children to football in Tyrone may have second thoughts given this perceived culture. You could argue that it wasn't going to happy anyway, but that doesn't matter, as long as we aren't creating a barrier to it happening. So it's not about who we might be missing out on now, but who we may be missing out on in the future by creating this image.

I think that's a very reasonable post. I'm just surprised more people don't see it that way too.

Jinxy

It's mad that this is even up for debate in 2018.
Believe what you want to believe, that's your business.
Don't make it anyone else's.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

befair

Quote from: easytiger95 on September 17, 2018, 10:53:58 AM
Quote from: BennyCake on September 17, 2018, 09:02:22 AM
The game is taken too serious. Players devote most of their lives, even to club football. ROared on by a demented manager making a name for himself and a brown envelope in his back pocket, getting boys to climb redwood trees and pulling monster trucks in the chapel car park. Players end up doing anything to gain success and lose sight of what's fair, honourable and sportsmanlike. So we end up with lads taken to hospital, broken jaws, lost teeth etc.

There is no outlet for your average club player, those who can't/won't devote the time/effort to play elite club football. No place for recreational football, just for the craic. Where the stakes are low, and boys are lining out for the enjoyment, to stay fit and the comradeship.

The GAA go on about the drop off after minor level. The main reason for it isn't lack of interest in the game. It's that people just can't commit to crazy schedules just to play club football.

+1000

My son is just starting off in the game - for a couple of medical reasons he is probably never going to trouble Brian Fenton's place on the Dublin team, but I would love if he could just have it as a past time to knock around with his friends. I doubt that is going to happen and I think the drop off will come a lot quicker as things get a lot more competitive when they hit the teen years.

These posts are absolutely right. The Underdogs episode last week encapsulated exactly where gaelic football has gone wrong. All the emphasis was on physical conditioning, rather than skills; it's like they were selecting a team of commandos. It's an amateur sport, and these extreme levels of fitness are not necessary for good health; but because one team is doing it, everyone has to do it. We're running to stand still and the joy and pleasure of playing football has been lost

trileacman

Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 02:13:15 PM
It's mad that this is even up for debate in 2018.
Believe what you want to believe, that's your business.
Don't make it anyone else's.

Agreed.

So why are people insisting the Tyrone panel shouldn't go mass as a group if that's there wishes?
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

Jinxy

Do you genuinely believe all the Tyrone players want to go to mass and say the rosary etc.?
And if the answer is 'No', then do you think any individual player would feel free to opt out?
I went to mass every Sunday when I was a child.
NEVER wanted to be there and when I said it to my parents later in life they said, "Sure no one was forcing you to go".
Technically that's true, but if the assumption has always been that you will go and everyone else is going too, are you likely to turn around to your parents and say, "Actually, I don't fancy this religion stuff at all".
There is an implicit power imbalance here.
All the power resides with Mickey Harte in this equation.
If you made the panel after slogging your guts out and you're desperately trying to break into the first XV, are you going to turn around to Mickey and say, "Count me out of this stuff"?
Mickey may well be fine with that, but that's not the point.
You're presenting the player with a difficult choice he should never have to make about something that has absolutely nothing to do with sport.
Would you take the risk that opting out of mass, the rosary etc. will put a black mark against your name?
If you were any use you'd be playing.

haranguerer

Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 02:13:15 PM
It's mad that this is even up for debate in 2018.
Believe what you want to believe, that's your business.
Don't make it anyone else's.

No-one disagrees with this on this thread.

five points

Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 02:44:34 PM
Do you genuinely believe all the Tyrone players want to go to mass and say the rosary etc.?
And if the answer is 'No', then do you think any individual player would feel free to opt out?
I went to mass every Sunday when I was a child.
NEVER wanted to be there and when I said it to my parents later in life they said, "Sure no one was forcing you to go".
Technically that's true, but if the assumption has always been that you will go and everyone else is going too, are you likely to turn around to your parents and say, "Actually, I don't fancy this religion stuff at all".
There is an implicit power imbalance here.
All the power resides with Mickey Harte in this equation.
If you made the panel after slogging your guts out and you're desperately trying to break into the first XV, are you going to turn around to Mickey and say, "Count me out of this stuff"?
Mickey may well be fine with that, but that's not the point.
You're presenting the player with a difficult choice he should never have to make about something that has absolutely nothing to do with sport.
Would you take the risk that opting out of mass, the rosary etc. will put a black mark against your name?


That's funny. Sean Boylan did exactly the same with Meath and won 4 All Irelands doing it. They've won nothing since he was ousted.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/many-of-the-meath-team-had-gyms-then-they-were-called-farms-26212721.html

QuoteOne big advantage we had at the time was that the routine changed little for many years. We had a kick around on Saturday evenings before all big games, attended Mass and went home to our own beds. Most of our matches were in Croke Park so Sunday was basically the same, whether the game was an early championship outing or the final.


johnnycool

Quote from: trileacman on September 17, 2018, 02:31:13 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 02:13:15 PM
It's mad that this is even up for debate in 2018.
Believe what you want to believe, that's your business.
Don't make it anyone else's.

Agreed.

So why are people insisting the Tyrone panel shouldn't go mass as a group if that's there wishes?

How would you know that all these young men in their 20's want to go to mass enbloc?

I'd say that as a representative group for lads that age they are an outlier wrt attending Mass.

Would there be the potential for lads to feel pressure to attend Mass to keep the right side of management??


trileacman

Thats false equivalence. A) you were a kid,  B) they were your parents who raised you, clothed you and looked out for you.

These are grown men and it regards playing county football for a mildly successful team managed by a man who is routinely under a barrage of criticism and scrutiny. Dozens of players and coaching staff have walked away from Harte and gone to be highly successful afterwards in life, football and work. I don't t if any of these men are in a crisis as to whether mumbiling the rosary and daydreaming through mass is an affront to their deeply held beliefs. And even if it were I'd question the sanity of men who'd persevere through such a moral crisis for the reward of a mc Kenna cup match or 15 mins against Carlow in the qualifiers.

You're making this a personal issue. Personally youve objections to it but your projecting your moral objections onto a Tyrone panel who've to date only ever expressed apathy and a sense of inconvenience to it.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

Jinxy

#205
Quote from: five points on September 17, 2018, 03:05:41 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 02:44:34 PM
Do you genuinely believe all the Tyrone players want to go to mass and say the rosary etc.?
And if the answer is 'No', then do you think any individual player would feel free to opt out?
I went to mass every Sunday when I was a child.
NEVER wanted to be there and when I said it to my parents later in life they said, "Sure no one was forcing you to go".
Technically that's true, but if the assumption has always been that you will go and everyone else is going too, are you likely to turn around to your parents and say, "Actually, I don't fancy this religion stuff at all".
There is an implicit power imbalance here.
All the power resides with Mickey Harte in this equation.
If you made the panel after slogging your guts out and you're desperately trying to break into the first XV, are you going to turn around to Mickey and say, "Count me out of this stuff"?
Mickey may well be fine with that, but that's not the point.
You're presenting the player with a difficult choice he should never have to make about something that has absolutely nothing to do with sport.
Would you take the risk that opting out of mass, the rosary etc. will put a black mark against your name?


That's funny. Sean Boylan did exactly the same with Meath and won 4 All Irelands doing it. They've won nothing since he was ousted.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/many-of-the-meath-team-had-gyms-then-they-were-called-farms-26212721.html

QuoteOne big advantage we had at the time was that the routine changed little for many years. We had a kick around on Saturday evenings before all big games, attended Mass and went home to our own beds. Most of our matches were in Croke Park so Sunday was basically the same, whether the game was an early championship outing or the final.

a) I'd imagine all of those players were regular mass-goers, as most of the country was back then.
b) Regardless of that, I still don't agree with it.
'What we used to do' doesn't really cut the mustard as an argument.
The Captains don't kiss the bishops ring before games anymore and the mere idea that they ever did is laughable in this day and age.
Times change, attitudes change.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

five points

Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 03:17:53 PM

a) I'd imagine all of those players were regular mass-goers, as most of the country was back then.
b) Regardless of that, I still don't agree with it.
'What we used to do' doesn't really cut the mustard as an argument.
The Captains don't kiss the bishops ring before games anymore and the mere idea that they ever did is laughable in this day and age.
Times change, attitudes change.

Meath's success rate has certainly changed too.  :)

omaghjoe

Any other form of team bonding could easily be ridiculed if there wasnt complete universal buy in from every single team member. The simple fact of the matter is that it is open season on religion these days so everyone jumps on the bandwagon of slagging it off.

The fact is, its a team sport and the individual must give up part of himself which often means doing things that you wouldn't be fully be behind otherwise, for the simple goal of the greater good of the team.

Jinxy

Quote from: trileacman on September 17, 2018, 03:13:34 PM
Thats false equivalence. A) you were a kid,  B) they were your parents who raised you, clothed you and looked out for you.

These are grown men and it regards playing county football for a mildly successful team managed by a man who is routinely under a barrage of criticism and scrutiny. Dozens of players and coaching staff have walked away from Harte and gone to be highly successful afterwards in life, football and work. I don't t if any of these men are in a crisis as to whether mumbiling the rosary and daydreaming through mass is an affront to their deeply held beliefs. And even if it were I'd question the sanity of men who'd persevere through such a moral crisis for the reward of a mc Kenna cup match or 15 mins against Carlow in the qualifiers.

You're making this a personal issue. Personally youve objections to it but your projecting your moral objections onto a Tyrone panel who've to date only ever expressed apathy and a sense of inconvenience to it.

Look, I'm not blind to the fact that the landscape in Tyrone is a bit different when it comes to issues of religion, identity etc.
I can understand why people from your neck of the woods might think, 'Sure what's all the fuss about?'
There are far worse things in life than being compelled to sit in a church daydreaming for half an hour for the sake of team unity.
I go to plenty of funerals, weddings etc. to support my friends & family in times of happiness and sadness.
I don't take communion because I believe that would be incredibly hypocritical and also pretty disrespectful to those who genuinely believe.
My specific issue in the context of the Tyrone regime is the notion that players can freely opt in or out.
If they're going to mass and they want to go to mass, the best of luck to them.
If they're going to mass because they feel they've no choice in the matter, I think that's wrong.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

omaghjoe

Quote from: five points on September 17, 2018, 03:27:14 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 17, 2018, 03:17:53 PM

a) I'd imagine all of those players were regular mass-goers, as most of the country was back then.
b) Regardless of that, I still don't agree with it.
'What we used to do' doesn't really cut the mustard as an argument.
The Captains don't kiss the bishops ring before games anymore and the mere idea that they ever did is laughable in this day and age.
Times change, attitudes change.

Meath's success rate has certainly changed too.  :)

Yeah the Celtic Tiger changed Meath from being a band of violence loving apes to money loving yuppies. They cant see how football would increase their house price or salary so it doesnt matter anymore.