Anybody know when and why the Jan - July birthday rule came into play in underage GAA?
I think it's very unfair on players.
Has there ever been any discussion into changing it, aligning it with other sports at underage level?
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 01:50:42 PM
Anybody know when and why the Jan - July birthday rule came into play in underage GAA?
I think it's very unfair on players.
Has there ever been any discussion into changing it, aligning it with other sports at underage level?
What, the calendar year as opposed to the school year?
in Down (hurling and Camogie anyway) the young age groups are run off as academic years, i.e. P4, P6 etc etc and there's a benefit in that the young ones stay in their friendship groups and are more inclined to play along with their class mates.
Then we revert to from Under 12 up as calendar years.
Pros and Cons for both IMO.
Local soccer in the north are run off on calendar years as well IIRC.
Quote from: johnnycool on April 25, 2019, 02:23:25 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 01:50:42 PM
Anybody know when and why the Jan - July birthday rule came into play in underage GAA?
I think it's very unfair on players.
Has there ever been any discussion into changing it, aligning it with other sports at underage level?
What, the calendar year as opposed to the school year?
in Down (hurling and Camogie anyway) the young age groups are run off as academic years, i.e. P4, P6 etc etc and there's a benefit in that the young ones stay in their friendship groups and are more inclined to play along with their class mates.
Then we revert to from Under 12 up as calendar years.
Pros and Cons for both IMO.
Local soccer in the north are run off on calendar years as well IIRC.
Same in Tyrone.
there has to be a dividing line drawn somewhere for each year group so why not January.
For the younger ones the school year works better as they remain with their friends but at an older level players can either have a good birthday for club football or a good birthday for schools football which IMO is better than the same players dominating in both.
But why at U12 say, just keep all the kids born in the same calendar year in the same team?
I'd expect that it was originally implemented as there was inconsistency in the start dates for school in NI (in the eighties, some schools started students born after 1 jun, some after 1 Jul, some after 1 Aug) and continues to be in ROI (where kids can begin anytime from their 1st birthday until the day before they turn 6).
So the levellest playing field was not one involving school years.
No such thing as a bad birthday, only bad players. I was such a bad player even a good birthday couldn't save me.
There have been a few studies on this, off the ball did a piece on it last year covering the a phd paper from some guy on the impact of Birthday and player development but i can't find a link. In summary, across all sports if you are born just after the cut off date your chances of making it are much higher than if you are born before.
Here is an article on impact in soccer:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/why-birthdays-are-one-of-the-big-problems-affecting-irish-soccer-464885.html
It's not that the current calendar year is unfair, whereever we put the cut off it will be fair to some and unfair to others
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
Quote from: Mario on April 25, 2019, 06:55:29 PM
There have been a few studies on this, off the ball did a piece on it last year covering the a phd paper from some guy on the impact of Birthday and player development but i can't find a link. In summary, across all sports if you are born just after the cut off date your chances of making it are much higher than if you are born before.
Here is an article on impact in soccer:
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/soccer/why-birthdays-are-one-of-the-big-problems-affecting-irish-soccer-464885.html
It's not that the current calendar year is unfair, whereever we put the cut off it will be fair to some and unfair to others
Thanks.
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
Interesting David. Good article that Mario posted above.
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The early in the year births are almost a full year older than the late birthdays. In later years that does not mean as much but in the your age groups it has a big effect. The older (bigger/faster/more co-ordinated) kid gets more possession/game time/picked for better teams and hence progresses more than the younger kid.
-- edited to add
Looks like I mostly said what David said.
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
I think I read somewhere that NZ rugby are going to start or if they haven't already done so by the size of the kid rather than age.
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 09:05:02 AM
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.
How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
It's called relative age effect.
Explained pretty well here
https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/ (https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/)
In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.
It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0)
There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.
Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.
I was born 2nd January, perfect for the system we used and I believe better development when having that 'extra year' back in the day.. but going on modern coaching and training done nowadays I'm sure they are developing at a similar rate, unfortunately there has to be a cut off date and be it a school year or January someone will benefit better than others.
For instance if I'm born in the summer and was 'kept' back a year I could be a full 11 months older than players in my year!
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2019, 09:36:33 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
It's called relative age effect.
Explained pretty well here
https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/ (https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/)
In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.
It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0)
There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.
Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.
The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.
Quote from: shark on April 26, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2019, 09:36:33 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
It's called relative age effect.
Explained pretty well here
https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/ (https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/)
In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.
It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0)
There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.
Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.
The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.
Exams as well. A lot of schools will factor in the age (in months) if 2 children have similar marks in transfer test.
https://www.today.com/parents/study-kids-born-late-summer-have-advantage-kindergarten-over-peers-t116485
My oldest son was due around 10th of January and was born a couple of weeks early. 1 of my first thoughts when he was born early was feck that's gonna cost a year at minor :).
Quote from: Maiden1 on April 26, 2019, 10:57:22 AM
Quote from: shark on April 26, 2019, 10:25:19 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 26, 2019, 09:36:33 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:25:29 PM
Quote from: marty34 on April 25, 2019, 09:17:09 PM
Quote from: David McKeown on April 25, 2019, 09:07:01 PM
In the North most but not all soccer leagues went on jan - dec years. Used to annoy me as it meant separating school friends. When I tried to change it for the league I ran I was told I couldn't do it because of UEFA rules.
There's remarkable statistics though on this. In 2011 more than 65% of premier league players were born in the first 4 months of their school year. For some Olympic sports it's nearer 80%. There's lots of studies on birth bias.
Thanks for the info David.
Any reasons why?
The studies suggest that when it came to training the slightly older kids tended to be be bigger stronger etc and therefore performed better. Consequently those kids were selected to compete more often and receive more training etc.
It's called relative age effect.
Explained pretty well here
https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/ (https://believeperform.com/performance/the-relative-age-effect-in-sport/)
In a nutshell, kids born earlier the year (Jan-Mar) will mature physically than those born (Oct-Dec) they will be quicker, stronger and have more endurance as they are just developing quick than their younger team mates. Coaches, and we all have egos, will pick the bigger and quicker players and then focus more of the coaching on these players. So now you have a situation where the older set are not old bigger and quicker or have more endurance but are also getting better coaching. Another off-set is that there is then a higher drop-off rate for those kids born in Q4 than Q1.
It really ties in with From the Bunkers Too Many for One Team thread
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=29163.0)
There tends to be a physical levelling out at u16 onwards so imho that's when serious competitive sport should start, kids will always be competitive but we don't need to impose winning values on young kids.
Interestingly enough Leinster Rugby changed from u18 rugby born after 1st Jan to u18.5 born after 1st July and this has seen a massive increase in retention at that age group with more clubs fielding than ever before. They replicated this at u20s being u20.5 as well, which has seen an 30% increase in clubs fielding at 20s level. It's just tapping into those kids physically not able for adult rugby but can still develop at their own pace and stay playing the game playing with their mates.
The book "Outliers" by Malcolm Gladwell goes in to detail on this. From football to Ice Hockey - the evidence is consistent.
Exams as well. A lot of schools will factor in the age (in months) if 2 children have similar marks in transfer test.
https://www.today.com/parents/study-kids-born-late-summer-have-advantage-kindergarten-over-peers-t116485
My oldest son was due around 10th of January and was born a couple of weeks early. 1 of my first thoughts when he was born early was feck that's gonna cost a year at minor :).
Ha Ha,
That's not the first time I've heard that, although he will be eligible a year earlier..........
Quote from: johnnycool on April 26, 2019, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 09:05:02 AM
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.
How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on April 26, 2019, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 09:05:02 AM
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.
How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.
That just puts the younger May/June kids at a disadvantage in their education and their football god love them!
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 12:57:27 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on April 26, 2019, 09:27:09 AM
Quote from: BenDover on April 26, 2019, 09:05:02 AM
Armagh GAA has made to the move to switch all age groups to follow school year right up to minor/U18.5.
How does that work with intercounty club competitions like the Feile, Paul McGirr and so forth?
I know for Feile the January birthday rule was used, so I'd assume that'd be the same for the other inter county competitions.
so you'd need to run off a seperate competition to see who represents Armagh at Feile and various other intercounty club competitions?
Armagh's change is a shambles in every way
31-12, of any year was the worst date. Literally a day to early that caused you to miss an entire year's worth of fball at under age level
Quote from: DuffleKing on April 27, 2019, 09:08:50 PM
Armagh's change is a shambles in every way
As this is the first year of it being used I think you are being a bit premature
Have an nephew who has stopped playing football this year and can't help but think it's partially due to his bad birthday - he is an end of November birthday and this year was his bad year for U10. To add to this he is definitely a slower/late developer in terms of his height and weight - it's as clear as day when you see him with his class mates and friends. To give an idea of his size he has a female cousin who is 6 who is less than an inch smaller than him. At games and training he was just being physically outmatched by lads the same age as him, never mind the boys 23 months older than him amd you coulld see him just getting frustrated and annoyed as he's a fierce competitor (hates losing with a passion) He was/is very skillful when he got the ball and would run all day. He still is playing soccer (same age grades) and loving it, because physicality doesn't come into it to anywhere near the same extent as in GAA. I'm hopeful of a growth spurt at some stage down the road as pretty much all his adult relatives on both sides are around the 6 foot mark at least - his dad is around 6ft2 6ft3 and his older brother (still playing) is above average height for his height. It was his own decision to quit and no-one wanted to force him to go doing something he wasn't enjoying - his parents had a talk with him about quitting things and the importance of sticking at things and explained he was at a disadvantage because he was a late developer but didn't want to make a big deal of it.
For myself I do remember playing one U14 match and feeling like a bit of a bully marking a fella who was at least 2 if not 3 years younger than me (he was 3 school years below me in secondary school and I'm nearly sure he was playing up an age) that I beat out the door mainly because I was about 4/5 inches taller and and 2/3 stone heavier than him. Early February birthday and I had just gone through a growth spurt so it was a complete mismatch size-wise. Why one of the managers did make a switch I'll never know. It was fun at first but by the end it was just embarrassing and I felt bad for him. Still can vividly remember being confused in the dressing room after when one of the lads ws saying I'd a great game and trying to explain that I was just older/bigger than the lad I was marking. Overall I can't help but feel that the GAA could maybe be doing more at underage to sort out this issue, as I'm sure this is one of the main reasons a lot of lads quit at underage.
Quote from: twohands!!! on April 28, 2019, 08:32:22 PM
Have an nephew who has stopped playing football this year and can't help but think it's partially due to his bad birthday - he is an end of November birthday and this year was his bad year for U10. To add to this he is definitely a slower/late developer in terms of his height and weight - it's as clear as day when you see him with his class mates and friends. To give an idea of his size he has a female cousin who is 6 who is less than an inch smaller than him. At games and training he was just being physically outmatched by lads the same age as him, never mind the boys 23 months older than him amd you coulld see him just getting frustrated and annoyed as he's a fierce competitor (hates losing with a passion) He was/is very skillful when he got the ball and would run all day. He still is playing soccer (same age grades) and loving it, because physicality doesn't come into it to anywhere near the same extent as in GAA. I'm hopeful of a growth spurt at some stage down the road as pretty much all his adult relatives on both sides are around the 6 foot mark at least - his dad is around 6ft2 6ft3 and his older brother (still playing) is above average height for his height. It was his own decision to quit and no-one wanted to force him to go doing something he wasn't enjoying - his parents had a talk with him about quitting things and the importance of sticking at things and explained he was at a disadvantage because he was a late developer but didn't want to make a big deal of it.
For myself I do remember playing one U14 match and feeling like a bit of a bully marking a fella who was at least 2 if not 3 years younger than me (he was 3 school years below me in secondary school and I'm nearly sure he was playing up an age) that I beat out the door mainly because I was about 4/5 inches taller and and 2/3 stone heavier than him. Early February birthday and I had just gone through a growth spurt so it was a complete mismatch size-wise. Why one of the managers did make a switch I'll never know. It was fun at first but by the end it was just embarrassing and I felt bad for him. Still can vividly remember being confused in the dressing room after when one of the lads ws saying I'd a great game and trying to explain that I was just older/bigger than the lad I was marking. Overall I can't help but feel that the GAA could maybe be doing more at underage to sort out this issue, as I'm sure this is one of the main reasons a lot of lads quit at underage.
Everybody develops physically at different ages as we know.
The reason I opened the op is to find out what other sports do. At least if everyone was in the same year i.e. Jan 08 - Dec31st 08, then people would know that's where they stand so to speak.
I think it'd make more sense, even from an official point of view intead of checking what month, just check the year.