Refugees

Started by Mayo4Sam14, September 03, 2015, 04:42:21 PM

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Kursk

Quote from: stew on October 29, 2015, 11:22:38 PM
Quote from: Kursk on October 29, 2015, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
The human side to the escalation in Syria has been a massive influx of people crossing from Turkey into Greece,
especially the islands, with Lesbos the most popular.  Over the past week or 2 there has been a massive increase in
the number of people crossing, and last night was a pretty bad night. I came across this blog entry from someone who
was on the ground and describes what it was like on the shores as the coast guards rescued dozens from the sea

http://mariennapw.com/2015/10/29/entry-iii-the-sinking-of-the-nameless-recollections-of-a-volunteerjournalist/

Yes. It is tragic. What gets me is the way European Nations pay lip service but don't do anything ! This paragraph is a case in point

"And as long as the EU refuses to grant these refugees safe legal passage, the smugglers will continue to exploit them. Ultimately, it is our governments with the power, resources and responsibility to act, who I hold responsible for what happened last night; and what is happening in so many nights in so many places across Europe now."

ffs, children are dying. Step up Europe. The total population of Europe is about 0.8 billion (??). For the sake of argument lets assume a billion. The total number of refugees (in turkey) is only 4 million so that is only one 1 refugee for every 250 people. It is a tiny percentage.

The way I see it, Europe is like a moral repository and has a duty to accept these people while those with less morals (US, Israel, Assad, IS etc) fight it out.

Europe has stepped up, which is more than some Muslim countries did, Russia was very loathe to help these people and are helping prop up an animal, their puppet!

Stew, I would agree with you but you are mixing up weak "humanitarian" gestures with actually doing something. If somebody bombs green bay is your first reaction to retreat to Minneseota and organize humanitarian aid or is your first reaction to confront the aggressors with whatever force you can muster?

We call all agree that Russia is lacking by European/American moral standards but I think we can also all agree that European/US moral standards are past their sell by date and must be copmpromized in the modern world ?

Kursk

Quote from: stew on October 29, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
Quote from: Kursk on October 29, 2015, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
The human side to the escalation in Syria has been a massive influx of people crossing from Turkey into Greece,
especially the islands, with Lesbos the most popular.  Over the past week or 2 there has been a massive increase in
the number of people crossing, and last night was a pretty bad night. I came across this blog entry from someone who
was on the ground and describes what it was like on the shores as the coast guards rescued dozens from the sea

http://mariennapw.com/2015/10/29/entry-iii-the-sinking-of-the-nameless-recollections-of-a-volunteerjournalist/

Yes. It is tragic. What gets me is the way European Nations pay lip service but don't do anything ! This paragraph is a case in point

"And as long as the EU refuses to grant these refugees safe legal passage, the smugglers will continue to exploit them. Ultimately, it is our governments with the power, resources and responsibility to act, who I hold responsible for what happened last night; and what is happening in so many nights in so many places across Europe now."

ffs, children are dying. Step up Europe. The total population of Europe is about 0.8 billion (??). For the sake of argument lets assume a billion. The total number of refugees (in turkey) is only 4 million so that is only one 1 refugee for every 250 people. It is a tiny percentage.

The way I see it, Europe is like a moral repository and has a duty to accept these people while those with less morals (US, Israel, Assad, IS etc) fight it out.

So you think the Russians and Europeans have superior morals than the yanks?

Germany has stepped up tremendously whilst some Muslim states wanted nothing to do with these people.

Morality is dead when politics encompasses a situation like this, Americans have given more aid over the past hundred than any other nation, the Russians do little in comparison and Putin is a despicable  KGB war criminal.

I wouldn't say Russia has "superior" morals but I would ask you how strong are your morals if you are not prepared to defend them ? What does it actually mean to be "moral" ? Talk is cheap. For example, if Russia was allowed more influence in the Balkans in the mid 90's perhaps srebinicia could have been avoided. Instead Nato rattled their sabre and the serbs were forced to react.

Kursk

Quote from: stew on October 29, 2015, 11:28:05 PM
Quote from: Kursk on October 29, 2015, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
The human side to the escalation in Syria has been a massive influx of people crossing from Turkey into Greece,
especially the islands, with Lesbos the most popular.  Over the past week or 2 there has been a massive increase in
the number of people crossing, and last night was a pretty bad night. I came across this blog entry from someone who
was on the ground and describes what it was like on the shores as the coast guards rescued dozens from the sea

http://mariennapw.com/2015/10/29/entry-iii-the-sinking-of-the-nameless-recollections-of-a-volunteerjournalist/

Yes. It is tragic. What gets me is the way European Nations pay lip service but don't do anything ! This paragraph is a case in point

"And as long as the EU refuses to grant these refugees safe legal passage, the smugglers will continue to exploit them. Ultimately, it is our governments with the power, resources and responsibility to act, who I hold responsible for what happened last night; and what is happening in so many nights in so many places across Europe now."

ffs, children are dying. Step up Europe. The total population of Europe is about 0.8 billion (??). For the sake of argument lets assume a billion. The total number of refugees (in turkey) is only 4 million so that is only one 1 refugee for every 250 people. It is a tiny percentage.

The way I see it, Europe is like a moral repository and has a duty to accept these people while those with less morals (US, Israel, Assad, IS etc) fight it out.

So you think the Russians and Europeans have superior morals than the yanks?

Germany has stepped up tremendously whilst some Muslim states wanted nothing to do with these people.

Morality is dead when politics encompasses a situation like this, Americans have given more aid over the past hundred than any other nation, the Russians do little in comparison and Putin is a despicable  KGB war criminal.

one other point.  giving aid is meaningless if the motives are not pure. Throwing money at poor, ill educated people is poor substitute for a coherent foreign policy.

give her dixie

Quote from: stew on October 29, 2015, 11:22:38 PM
Quote from: Kursk on October 29, 2015, 10:32:37 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on October 29, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
The human side to the escalation in Syria has been a massive influx of people crossing from Turkey into Greece,
especially the islands, with Lesbos the most popular.  Over the past week or 2 there has been a massive increase in
the number of people crossing, and last night was a pretty bad night. I came across this blog entry from someone who
was on the ground and describes what it was like on the shores as the coast guards rescued dozens from the sea

http://mariennapw.com/2015/10/29/entry-iii-the-sinking-of-the-nameless-recollections-of-a-volunteerjournalist/

Yes. It is tragic. What gets me is the way European Nations pay lip service but don't do anything ! This paragraph is a case in point

"And as long as the EU refuses to grant these refugees safe legal passage, the smugglers will continue to exploit them. Ultimately, it is our governments with the power, resources and responsibility to act, who I hold responsible for what happened last night; and what is happening in so many nights in so many places across Europe now."

ffs, children are dying. Step up Europe. The total population of Europe is about 0.8 billion (??). For the sake of argument lets assume a billion. The total number of refugees (in turkey) is only 4 million so that is only one 1 refugee for every 250 people. It is a tiny percentage.

The way I see it, Europe is like a moral repository and has a duty to accept these people while those with less morals (US, Israel, Assad, IS etc) fight it out.

Europe has stepped up, which is more than some Muslim countries did, Russia was very loathe to help these people and are helping prop up an animal, their puppet!

Stew, over 2 million refugees are in Lebanon, Jordan has hundreds of thousands, Turkey the same.......

It's not about what others are doing at this stage, it's about helping those on the move at the minute. I know you agree.

I have been following the Lesbos situation very closely as I have friends there for the past few weeks, and the past few
days have been terrible. It's nearly all volunteers who are helping out with donations, and hardly and aid groups are on the ground.

I watched this Drone footage of people on the move and all I can hear in my head is the Pogues song "Thousands Are Sailing"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBa7pJo-yPg
next stop, September 10, for number 4......

Kursk

Here is some more footage from Russian Television (RT) of the human catastrophe that Europe refuses to deal with

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvT8epRM_-Q

muppet

Putin, like Thatcher and the Falklands, needs a war to distract from his ailing economy. This one suits him nicely because although he is supporting a bad guy in the eyes of the West, he is also fighting against the evil ISIS. It is a no brainer for him to exploit the political paradoxes involved.
MWWSI 2017

Kursk

Whilst Russia , like any other country, has its economic problems the "distraction from ailing economy" is a line that is deliberately over emphasized by western media. The Russians are smart enough not to over extend themselves. You must remember that they will not incur the expense of any attempt at rebuilding civil institutions etc and all the other humanitarian nonsense that the Americans engaged in as a cover for imperialism. Turkey, lebanon and Europe will bear the humanitarian expense and quite right as well since all these counties have, in many ways, been complicit in what has been going on in the middle east, and specifically Syria,  for decades.

Instead of imposing sanctions on Russia, Europe should be engaging with them to find ways of meeting Europes energy needs so that they have less dependence on the Middle east. People will eventually see that Russia is a much more natural ally to Europe than the US. It's key advantage over the US in terms of Europe/Asian relations is its proximity to everything that is going on. 

muppet

Quote from: Kursk on October 30, 2015, 01:43:05 PM
Whilst Russia , like any other country, has its economic problems the "distraction from ailing economy" is a line that is deliberately over emphasized by western media. The Russians are smart enough not to over extend themselves. You must remember that they will not incur the expense of any attempt at rebuilding civil institutions etc and all the other humanitarian nonsense that the Americans engaged in as a cover for imperialism. Turkey, lebanon and Europe will bear the humanitarian expense and quite right as well since all these counties have, in many ways, been complicit in what has been going on in the middle east, and specifically Syria,  for decades.

Instead of imposing sanctions on Russia, Europe should be engaging with them to find ways of meeting Europes energy needs so that they have less dependence on the Middle east. People will eventually see that Russia is a much more natural ally to Europe than the US. It's key advantage over the US in terms of Europe/Asian relations is its proximity to everything that is going on.

I didn't read that in any media story. The words you quoted are mine, not lifted from anywhere else.

What you did was to use a simple device to discredit my post. You invented a source, 'western media', without providing any evidence, and you then discredited that source.

Some of us can think for ourselves thank you.

MWWSI 2017

Kursk

Quote from: muppet on October 30, 2015, 01:46:49 PM
Some of us can think for ourselves thank you.

were you not the one that just presented your analysis of putins motives as a "no brainer" ? perhaps you should follow your own advice.

muppet

Quote from: Kursk on October 30, 2015, 01:53:48 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 30, 2015, 01:46:49 PM
Some of us can think for ourselves thank you.

were you not the one that just presented your analysis of putins motives as a "no brainer" ? perhaps you should follow your own advice.

It is a no brainer.

Are you able to debate the point, or do you merely insult anyone that has a different view to yours?
MWWSI 2017

Kursk

Where did I insult you ?

Look, I have no interest in engaging in personalized tit-for-tat exchanges with you. Looking at your posting history it seems you like to get involved in these kind of things a lot.


muppet

Putin's interference in Syria has to be seen in the context of other events.

Not least John McCain's agitation in Ukraine. There he was hugely influential in having a democratically elected crook overthrown and two unelected, but pro-west, crooks put in his place. No doubt he was influential in getting Ukraine a haircut on it's sovereign debt, something that the west denied Greece, but then Greece isn't in the old USSR.

McCain has some interesting friends in the Ukraine: http://www.businessinsider.com/john-mccain-meets-oleh-tyahnybok-in-ukraine-2013-12?op=1&IR=T

I can't couch for this blog but they make some interesting claims: http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/2014/01/07/us-ngo-uncovered-in-ukraine-protests/

Russia's response was violent and criminal, but to be expected. Anyone who expected differently of Putin is nuts.

The Democrat in the White House, since then, played a smart game and crashed oil prices. This has really put the squeeze on Putin while it also brought Iran to the negotiating table.

Putin is a long way from any negotiation table.

So now he has jumped into the Syrian conflict.

Putin is predictable.

I am more fascinated to see Obama administration's next move.
MWWSI 2017

muppet

Quote from: Kursk on October 30, 2015, 02:16:40 PM
Where did I insult you ?

Look, I have no interest in engaging in personalized tit-for-tat exchanges with you. Looking at your posting history it seems you like to get involved in these kind of things a lot.


:D :D :D :D

You don't even see the irony do you?
MWWSI 2017

Kursk

It may have been violent but to say it was criminal is a step too far imho. Essentially what is going in Ukraine is a civil war. You can argue that Russia helped kick it off but so did Europe and I think it was inevitable anyway. The majority of Ukrainians in the east identify as Russian. They have as much right to self determination as any other group right ? Europe can't choose what are the "good" causes for self determination and the "bad" causes.

Also, predictable is good. People want to know that their leaders actually reflect their will. The reason the EU  is doomed to fail (and probably democracy in Europe as we know it, if we are not careful) is that there are two parts to it. One you elect your leaders and two they actually do what you elect them to do. That is not happening. Not only are they not implementing the will of the people they are doing the exact opposite. Putin reflects the will of the Russian people, make no mistake about that. The reason the UK were caught completely unawares by the size of the tory election victory is that people are simply afraid to verbalize what they actually think due to political correctness. Putin and Russia are completely free of this nonsense and therefore have a great advantage.   

Of course none of this means that Putin is likeable or that the Russian state is likeable. However, that is irrelevant because the time of soft power is over.

muppet

MWWSI 2017