Irish governments turn to answer claims of collusion

[Nally Stand]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

Surely all collusion is bad and should never be something that one should be 'fairly content' about.

Indeed, including Gardaí co-operation with the terrorist RUC.

[michaelg]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

Surely all collusion is bad and should never be something that one should be 'fairly content' about.

Indeed, including Gardaí co-operation with the terrorist RUC.

So why use the term fairly content as you did earlier?

[bennydorano]

Collusion is collusion boys, there can be no excuses made, no bullshit whataboutery, the lines trotted out like 'a few bad apples' are the same lines Ruc collusion apologists trotted out ad nauseum.

[Nally Stand]

I wonder if Nally Stand is as upset with this collusion.

Rest assured, Nally Stand won't lose any sleep over an ambush on two senior RUC men; one of whom was named by John Weir in a sworn affidavit as belonging to a loyalist paramilitary group in County Down who were closely tied to the UVF. I am also fairly content to know that any collusion was, as evidenced in today's report, due to "someone", in one garda station who passed on information to the IRA, and was not a functioning, long running state policy, as was the case with british state collusion.

Surely all collusion is bad and should never be something that one should be 'fairly content' about.

Indeed, including Gardaí co-operation with the terrorist RUC.

So why use the term fairly content as you did earlier?

Content to know that I won't have to listen to the Gregory Campbells of the world slabbering about collusion with the IRA being a state policy, as individuals like him would just love to have been the case.

[Nally Stand]

Collusion is collusion boys, there can be no excuses made, no bullshit whataboutery, the lines trotted out like 'a few bad apples' are the same lines Ruc collusion apologists trotted out ad nauseum.

Benny, it's a noble sounding argument but it doesn't stand up to sense. Are you therefore claiming that Garda collusion with the IRA was Irish state policy or are you suggesting that collusion with loyalists over thirty years was just due to "bad apples"? Your post clearly implies that one of those claims must be true. The report makes it abundantly clear - this WAS a case of one or maybe two bad apples acting in total isolation resulting in two deaths in over thirty years. Collusion in the six counties, simply WAS NOT a case of a few bad apples. There is a mountain of evidence which suggests it was full blown british state policy to collude with paramilitary gangs in the murder of hundreds of people. If you read Lethal Allies, you would be in absolutely no doubt about the extent of it. To equate the actions of one or two rogue guards with a decades long state murder campaign is fanciful.

[bennydorano]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

[stibhan]

Collusion is collusion boys, there can be no excuses made, no bullshit whataboutery, the lines trotted out like 'a few bad apples' are the same lines Ruc collusion apologists trotted out ad nauseum.

But sorry, collusion isn't collusion here. It's Smithwhick's definition of it. So the 'state' part of this thread title is completely ridiculous, since the 'state' is represented by literally 2 guards. As said, if 'the failure to act' is collusion then we have successive British Cabinets involved in collusion rather than just 'one or two bad apples' (David Ford).

The person who equivocated is the judge himself. It's not whataboutery, it's based on what he himself said.

[seafoid]

Collusion is collusion boys, there can be no excuses made, no bullshit whataboutery, the lines trotted out like 'a few bad apples' are the same lines Ruc collusion apologists trotted out ad nauseum.

But sorry, collusion isn't collusion here. It's Smithwhick's definition of it. So the 'state' part of this thread title is completely ridiculous, since the 'state' is represented by literally 2 guards. As said, if 'the failure to act' is collusion then we have successive British Cabinets involved in collusion rather than just 'one or two bad apples' (David Ford).

The person who equivocated is the judge himself. It's not whataboutery, it's based on what he himself said.

.
Revenge for Loughgall and someone in Dundalk Garda Station fed the info to the IRA.
It was hardly systematic.
And in the end the IRA recognised Norn Irn anyway. 

[deiseach]

My point is you dont have to equivocate, condemn it for what it is or say nowt, it's not defensible.

No it isn't, and it doesn't reflect well on the guards. Not because they were all in cahoots with the Provos but because of an unwillingness to deal with dodgy elements in their own ranks. It was the same with the McBrearty debacle in Donegal. The upper echelons knew something was wrong but they kept kicking the can down the road in the hope that . . . well, I don't know what they were hoping. Basically that it would all go away.

Note that any objective assessment of the murders of Bob Buchanan and Harry Breen has to incorporate their amazingly cavalier attitude to their own safety. They had a self-image of being ordinary peelers going about their day's work helping old ladies across the street and giving rapscallions a toe up the behind. They would regularly pop into any barracks along the border to talk shop. It was an insane way for two senior RUC officers to behave and the longer it went on the more the chances of something happening to them approached 1.

[Applesisapples]

Why would it surprise anyone that a Garda colluded with the IRA? Maybe not just one but quite a number for all we know. Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame. At the end of the day he could have just said yes there appears to have been collusion, the deaths are regrettable and on behalf of Republicans we again apologise for the grief and hurt felt by these families. Trotting out what-a-boutery is disingenuous and as bad as the typically over hyped what-a-boutery of Tom Elliott who confirms his idiocy with every statement. Gerry managed to make Jeffrey Donaldson sound reasonable...some feat that. It is clear that there was no clear state collusion with the IRA in the way that loyalists in the RUC/UDR/RIR clearly aided and participated in loyalist murders. But that doesn't excuse the actions of individual Gardai.

[Nally Stand]

Why would it surprise anyone that a Garda colluded with the IRA? Maybe not just one but quite a number for all we know. Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame. At the end of the day he could have just said yes there appears to have been collusion, the deaths are regrettable and on behalf of Republicans we again apologise for the grief and hurt felt by these families. Trotting out what-a-boutery is disingenuous and as bad as the typically over hyped what-a-boutery of Tom Elliott who confirms his idiocy with every statement. Gerry managed to make Jeffrey Donaldson sound reasonable...some feat that. It is clear that there was no clear state collusion with the IRA in the way that loyalists in the RUC/UDR/RIR clearly aided and participated in loyalist murders. But that doesn't excuse the actions of individual Gardai.

From what I heard, he didn't engage in whataboutery, but rather pointed out the contradiction in the report which stated that:

1. There was collusion
but that..
2. There was no evidence of collusion found

[Tubberman]

Why would it surprise anyone that a Garda colluded with the IRA? Maybe not just one but quite a number for all we know. Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame. At the end of the day he could have just said yes there appears to have been collusion, the deaths are regrettable and on behalf of Republicans we again apologise for the grief and hurt felt by these families. Trotting out what-a-boutery is disingenuous and as bad as the typically over hyped what-a-boutery of Tom Elliott who confirms his idiocy with every statement. Gerry managed to make Jeffrey Donaldson sound reasonable...some feat that. It is clear that there was no clear state collusion with the IRA in the way that loyalists in the RUC/UDR/RIR clearly aided and participated in loyalist murders. But that doesn't excuse the actions of individual Gardai.

From what I heard, he didn't engage in whataboutery, but rather pointed out the contradiction in the report which stated that:

1. There was collusion
but that..
2. There was no evidence of collusion found

And it was their own fault wandering into South Armagh, what did they expect with their "laissez faire" attitude.

[Nally Stand]

http://www.judecollins.com/2013/12/6477/

JUDE COLLINS
"I find myself with five questions:

1. Mr Justice Smithwick makes it clear that two garda sergeants who were in touch with the IRA were not, repeat not the people who tipped off the IRA about the RUC men. He says there was garda collusion but he doesn't know who did it. How then does he know there was collusion? Or that the tip-off came from within Dundalk Garda Station?

2. Prior to the ambush, Superintendent Bob Buchanan made frequent trips to Dundalk Garda Station, using the same car and not bothering even to change the number plates. Why was this?

3. What were two such high-ranking RUC men doing travelling without back-up on a remote South Armagh road known to be highly dangerous for security forces?

4. Chief Superintendent Harry Breen looked after Complaints and Discipline in the RUC. and was Divisional Commander of H Division: that is, he was in charge of operations in South Armagh and South Down. That's why he was the RUC presence at the press conference following the shooting dead of eight IRA men at Loughgall in a 1987 ambush by the SAS. Does Mr Justice Smithwick conclude that the killing of Breen and Buchanan may have been seen by the IRA as revenge for Loughgall?

5. While all deaths in the conflict were primitive and brutal, does the high rank held by Breen and Buchanan make their deaths any more tragic than the violent deaths of less high-ranking RUC officers or British Army personnel or IRA volunteers?"

[armaghniac]

And it was their own fault wandering into South Armagh, what did they expect with their "laissez faire" attitude.

Their attitude was astonishing. It also mean that that least bit of information could lead to their deaths.

[deiseach]

Why would it surprise anyone that a Garda colluded with the IRA? Maybe not just one but quite a number for all we know. Listening to Gerry Adams response this morning though was embarrassing. The man has no shame. At the end of the day he could have just said yes there appears to have been collusion, the deaths are regrettable and on behalf of Republicans we again apologise for the grief and hurt felt by these families. Trotting out what-a-boutery is disingenuous and as bad as the typically over hyped what-a-boutery of Tom Elliott who confirms his idiocy with every statement. Gerry managed to make Jeffrey Donaldson sound reasonable...some feat that. It is clear that there was no clear state collusion with the IRA in the way that loyalists in the RUC/UDR/RIR clearly aided and participated in loyalist murders. But that doesn't excuse the actions of individual Gardai.

What did Jeffrey Donaldson have to say about it? He's never shown any concern before about State collusion in acts of murder.