Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
You could just lock this thread until Christmas then?
Plenty of club stuff to be after.
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
I think Derry and Armagh will remain competitive in Ulster. Tyrone, can't be as bad as this year, but unless they improve their panel from what it was this year, they will not walk over anyone. They could slide back even more.
Hard to know what Monaghan/Donegal will be like given new management coming in and probably new playing personnel. Will Murphy still be there for Donegal?
Antrim improved, but still not a threat IMO.
Cavan might surprise a few next year with their run in the Tealteann cup this year.
Down - can't see them doing much, but who know.
Compare to other provinces, we're probably still most competitive where realistically we have at least 4 teams in with a real chance of winning the provincial.
On the all Ireland stage, we have 5 teams in the top 10 in the country, so in general I'd say compared to other provinces we are very strong. However, none of those 5 teams would be favourites for an AI - Kerry, Dublin, Galway all would be ahead of them.
For what it's worth, my opinion on to 10 teams in order are:
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Derry
Armagh
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Tyrone
Roscommon
**Getting ready for the outrage at some of the ratings ;D
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
My prediction is that Tyrone will not beat Armagh or Derry before Christmas. The Tyrone club champions may well be beaten by the Armagh or Derry champions though.
percentage wise could you say Connaught is strong.
CONNACHT
Quote from: Eire90 on August 19, 2022, 01:00:21 PM
percentage wise could you say Connaught is strong.
Spot the Brit
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 19, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
I think Derry and Armagh will remain competitive in Ulster. Tyrone, can't be as bad as this year, but unless they improve their panel from what it was this year, they will not walk over anyone. They could slide back even more.
Hard to know what Monaghan/Donegal will be like given new management coming in and probably new playing personnel. Will Murphy still be there for Donegal?
Antrim improved, but still not a threat IMO.
Cavan might surprise a few next year with their run in the Tealteann cup this year.
Down - can't see them doing much, but who know.
Compare to other provinces, we're probably still most competitive where realistically we have at least 4 teams in with a real chance of winning the provincial.
On the all Ireland stage, we have 5 teams in the top 10 in the country, so in general I'd say compared to other provinces we are very strong. However, none of those 5 teams would be favourites for an AI - Kerry, Dublin, Galway all would be ahead of them.
For what it's worth, my opinion on to 10 teams in order are:
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Derry
Armagh
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Tyrone
Roscommon
**Getting ready for the outrage at some of the ratings ;D
Haven't felt this underrated since... 2021! Keep 'er lit! :D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 19, 2022, 08:24:15 PM
Haven't felt this underrated since... 2021! Keep 'er lit! :D
We don't underrate you. Armagh beat Tyrone 3 times in 2022, I wouldn't be surprised if it was only twice in 2023.
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 19, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
I think Derry and Armagh will remain competitive in Ulster. Tyrone, can't be as bad as this year, but unless they improve their panel from what it was this year, they will not walk over anyone. They could slide back even more.
Hard to know what Monaghan/Donegal will be like given new management coming in and probably new playing personnel. Will Murphy still be there for Donegal?
Antrim improved, but still not a threat IMO.
Cavan might surprise a few next year with their run in the Tealteann cup this year.
Down - can't see them doing much, but who know.
Compare to other provinces, we're probably still most competitive where realistically we have at least 4 teams in with a real chance of winning the provincial.
On the all Ireland stage, we have 5 teams in the top 10 in the country, so in general I'd say compared to other provinces we are very strong. However, none of those 5 teams would be favourites for an AI - Kerry, Dublin, Galway all would be ahead of them.
For what it's worth, my opinion on to 10 teams in order are:
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Derry
Armagh
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Tyrone
Roscommon
**Getting ready for the outrage at some of the ratings ;D
Roscommon ;D
Quote from: Turf on August 19, 2022, 09:12:16 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 19, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
I think Derry and Armagh will remain competitive in Ulster. Tyrone, can't be as bad as this year, but unless they improve their panel from what it was this year, they will not walk over anyone. They could slide back even more.
Hard to know what Monaghan/Donegal will be like given new management coming in and probably new playing personnel. Will Murphy still be there for Donegal?
Antrim improved, but still not a threat IMO.
Cavan might surprise a few next year with their run in the Tealteann cup this year.
Down - can't see them doing much, but who know.
Compare to other provinces, we're probably still most competitive where realistically we have at least 4 teams in with a real chance of winning the provincial.
On the all Ireland stage, we have 5 teams in the top 10 in the country, so in general I'd say compared to other provinces we are very strong. However, none of those 5 teams would be favourites for an AI - Kerry, Dublin, Galway all would be ahead of them.
For what it's worth, my opinion on to 10 teams in order are:
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Derry
Armagh
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Tyrone
Roscommon
**Getting ready for the outrage at some of the ratings ;D
Roscommon ;D
Every year since 2015 they have been in either the top in Div 2 or playing in Div 1 so 10th probably about right.
You only have to look at Division 1. Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan, Tyrone....and Derry are not out of place in Division one if placed there. If drawn in the prelim of Ulster you could meet 4 of those sides in order to win Ulster.
Down are in a bit of a lull. Antrim, Cavan and Fermanagh will yoyo between 2 and 4.
Quote from: ONeill on August 19, 2022, 10:00:29 PM
You only have to look at Division 1. Armagh, Donegal, Monaghan, Tyrone....and Derry are not out of place in Division one if placed there. If drawn in the prelim of Ulster you could meet 4 of those sides in order to win Ulster.
Down are in a bit of a lull. Antrim, Cavan and Fermanagh will yoyo between 2 and 4.
I wouldn't have Cavan in with the other 3 at all, they've plenty of good footballers & a good manager. I doubt they'd fear any team in Ulster.
Quote from: Blowitupref on August 19, 2022, 09:52:06 PM
Quote from: Turf on August 19, 2022, 09:12:16 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on August 19, 2022, 10:48:53 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 19, 2022, 10:31:21 AM
Are Armagh and Derry the real thing or will Tyrone walk all over them ?
It's a long way to Christmas
I think Derry and Armagh will remain competitive in Ulster. Tyrone, can't be as bad as this year, but unless they improve their panel from what it was this year, they will not walk over anyone. They could slide back even more.
Hard to know what Monaghan/Donegal will be like given new management coming in and probably new playing personnel. Will Murphy still be there for Donegal?
Antrim improved, but still not a threat IMO.
Cavan might surprise a few next year with their run in the Tealteann cup this year.
Down - can't see them doing much, but who know.
Compare to other provinces, we're probably still most competitive where realistically we have at least 4 teams in with a real chance of winning the provincial.
On the all Ireland stage, we have 5 teams in the top 10 in the country, so in general I'd say compared to other provinces we are very strong. However, none of those 5 teams would be favourites for an AI - Kerry, Dublin, Galway all would be ahead of them.
For what it's worth, my opinion on to 10 teams in order are:
Kerry
Dublin
Galway
Derry
Armagh
Mayo
Donegal
Monaghan
Tyrone
Roscommon
**Getting ready for the outrage at some of the ratings ;D
Roscommon ;D
Every year since 2015 they have been in either the top in Div 2 or playing in Div 1 so 10th probably about right.
Am I right in saying Armagh are the 5th best team in Ireland despite having won no league or championship trophy in say the last 5 years?
Teams are as they are this year.
The past is a foreign country and all that
Less than 12 months since Tyrone won Sam. Keep talking....
Tyrone ones obviously think this year was a blip and they're going to waltz back in and take up where they left off in 2021, while they've obviously a lot of talent something looked to be wrong in that set up, that's not as easily rectified, plus the foot has been removed from Armagh & Derrys' necks, I don't see either team submitting any more. Plus, the luck was hanging out of Tyrone in 2021, only worse team to even reach an AIF was Down in 2010, at least they'd the decency to lose.
Quote from: bennydorano on August 22, 2022, 12:37:52 PM
Tyrone ones obviously think this year was a blip and they're going to waltz back in and take up where they left off in 2021, while they've obviously a lot of talent something looked to be wrong in that set up, that's not as easily rectified, plus the foot has been removed from Armagh & Derrys' necks, I don't see either team submitting any more. Plus, the luck was hanging out of Tyrone in 2021, only worse team to even reach an AIF was Down in 2010, at least they'd the decency to lose.
You may be right. Generally speaking we've been in the top 4 for most of the last 2 decades. So hoping it was just a bad year after the excitement of 2021. But nothings guaranteed. I'd still fancy us to win Ulster next year if we can pull it together. And the AI is a more realistic target for teams now than 3-4 years ago when Dublin had their stranglehold. All to play for for a lot of teams.
Personally, I think that the likes of Armagh and Derry have mentally broken some barriers this year in terms of turning over the like of Tyrone and Donegal, who have been strong contenders for Ulster for the past decade. Whereas in the not to distant past, a win by either team over Tyrone or Donegal would have been seen as an upset, I wouldn't say that is the case anymore, as all 4 are as strong as one another, with possibly Donegal slightly behind the other 3 atm.
Tyrone are extremely hard to diagnose. A lack of motivation possibly was their main downfall this year, as nobody can deny the quality throughout the squad. I would reserve judgement on them until we see how they perform in 2023. If they are lacking motivation, this years should reinvigorate that.
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Derry are definitely not the best team in Ulster.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2022/0820/1316887-clarke-not-ready-to-close-door-on-armagh-career/
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
To be fair, Tyrone have been top4 for a long time so while I think the AI was a bit lucky, it wasn't Leicester Citg levels of surprise.
If I was betting on an ulster team to win the AI next year my money would still be on Tyrone. Will take a few more years of success for Armsgh or Derry to make me think any differently.
Quote from: The Coddfather on August 22, 2022, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Derry are definitely not the best team in Ulster.
Who is then? Derry beat Tyrone and Monaghan fairly comfortably. Donegal was an arm wrestle but they eventually prevailed so they certainly earned their Ulster title this year beating three out of the four top teams on their way to the title. They have a good underage/schools system and a competitive club scene so I would still think that they are on an upward trajectory.
I did think about putting Armagh at number 1 as they easily accounted for Tyrone and Donegal in the qualifiers and you could argue that they were more impressive than Derry. But Derry probably have a greater scope for improvement I would argue.
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 22, 2022, 01:42:13 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Troll effort - 8.5.
Not sure why you would think its trolling, its just an opinion, nothing more than that.
Quote from: The Coddfather on August 22, 2022, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Derry are definitely not the best team in Ulster.
If only there were a competition to decide who is
Quote from: Duine Inteacht Eile on August 22, 2022, 01:54:25 PM
It's just that your logic is flawed.
Tyrone have been knocking about the top teams for a long time and recently won the AI. They are placed in 4th as "they have to prove it wasn't a fluke."
The teams in places 1 & 2 have come from nowhere for the 1st time in a lifetime, in which neither won the AI, but there is no mention of a possible fluke.
Performances in the most recent year will always naturally carry more weight than those of the previous year. It was fairly obvious that Tyrone have gone backwards this year both based on League performances, players leaving the squad and 2 bad championship defeats. The truth is that they are neither as good as 2021 or as bad as 2022. They are a long way off AI winning level though and I think that in time the Kerry 2021 semi final will go down as one of the great ambushes in recent times much like the Donegal defeat of Dublin in 2014.
If Donegal got someone like Malachy O'Rourke in I don't think they'll be too far away, huge talented, depends how much mental damage has been done.
Quote from: The Coddfather on August 22, 2022, 01:26:57 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
Derry are definitely not the best team in Ulster.
(https://www.irishnews.com/picturesarchive/irishnews/irishnews/2022/05/31/190623744-13b8d079-253f-4682-805f-2f1b0768945b.jpg)
I beg your pardon??!!
The great Tyrone team of 03-08 never followed up an all Ireland. The question is whether this team will follow the same pattern or not.
not really conducive at the moment. In an amateur sport it probably comes down to the professionalism, social scene and affordability of everyone involved. Can players afford to park their lives for 2 years at a time or do they take an intermittent approach. I believe that ultimately the split season and closing down the county scene for longer periods of the year will in the future work better for the county players who can have more offtime,worktime, social life and of course club football before they come back and go again. Age and professional profile are crucial factors within a team winning an all ireland. It makes the ageing Mayo players commitment to excellence more and more stand out. In kerry there is as much a relief at winning as there is euphoria, but it is truly unique in that, often it is often fear of being only a one time all ireland medal winner that drives them on again and again. Where else would you get it?
2023 Mayo to be top dog. You heard it here first.
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2022, 02:49:04 PM
The great Tyrone team of 03-08 never followed up an all Ireland. The question is whether this team will follow the same pattern or not.
Followed up 03 plenty, of course they didn't do back to back, I think more than adequate dispensation for 04 and after 2 in 3 years in 05 the 08 success confirmed the greatness of the group and manager, without Tyrone in that era Kerry could well have done 5-6 in a row, Kerry in the noughties were pure class and the pre-eminent team, Tyrone rightly took the plaudits though as they delivered on the big days repeatedly and rightly team of the decade
Pre-eminent team: most successful
Team of the decade: the team everyone will remember
If the argument is who is the best team in Ulster at the moment, we have a competition to settle that debate every year. For the remainder of the spots, that is debateable.
Consistency is a big factor in what makes a team great in my eyes. Derry will be labelled a flash in the pan if they underperform next year, much the same way we state Tyrone "fluked" their all Ireland based off this year.
Cavan are a great example of this. From watching them dismantle Donegal in the Ulster final, they have faded to nothing now. The case could be argued they fluked their Ulster title, although on the day they were immense.
Hand on heart the Ulster championship can be won by a number of teams, there is no out and out favourite for 2023.
Quote from: tiempo on August 22, 2022, 03:06:37 PM
Quote from: seafoid on August 22, 2022, 02:49:04 PM
The great Tyrone team of 03-08 never followed up an all Ireland. The question is whether this team will follow the same pattern or not.
Followed up 03 plenty, of course they didn't do back to back, I think more than adequate dispensation for 04 and after 2 in 3 years in 05 the 08 success confirmed the greatness of the group and manager, without Tyrone in that era Kerry could well have done 5-6 in a row, Kerry in the noughties were pure class and the pre-eminent team, Tyrone rightly took the plaudits though as they delivered on the big days repeatedly and rightly team of the decade
Pre-eminent team: most successful
Team of the decade: the team everyone will remember
They were poor in 04 and 06. They ey were the wind beneath Kerry's wings in both years, ably assisted by Mayo.
They were a great team. The 2021 team learnt from them about economy and playing the clock down and taking your chance on the first go. Tyrone teams will probably always have that. A culture of winning.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
I think i'd rank teams based on the last 3 years than just this years.
Quote from: Blowitupref on August 22, 2022, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
I think i'd rank teams based on the last 3 years than just this years.
I completely agree... surely you have to consider Derry's performances in Ulster in the past few years?
You would have to go back to 2015 to find the last time Derry won an Ulster championship game before this year.
Quote from: Blowitupref on August 22, 2022, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
I think i'd rank teams based on the last 3 years than just this years.
I have taken all things into account but you can't argue that the current Derry aren't a completely different team to that of 3 years ago. Therefore its weighted heavily towards this years performances but again it's only my opinion and others can disagree if they want. If you were to base it off the last 3 years then Derry would be 5th or 6th ranked and you can't argue that the current Ulster champions are the 5th or 6th best team in the province.
Quote from: rrhf on August 22, 2022, 11:30:49 AM
Less than 12 months since Tyrone won Sam. Keep talking....
Normally I'd agree with that. But this year Tyrone had so many players leave the panel and were so far off the required level it almost seemed like they were a team in the early stages of rebuilding.
Of course, that could all change.
But I think based only on this years performances, Tyrone are well back.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 05:23:15 PM
Quote from: Blowitupref on August 22, 2022, 04:35:23 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 22, 2022, 01:04:15 PM
This is how I would rank the Ulster teams at the minute.
1. Derry
2. Armagh
3. Donegal
4. Tyrone
5. Monaghan
6. Cavan
7. Down
8. Fermanagh
9. Antrim
The truth is there isn't a lot between most of the sides, especially in that top 5 list of teams while Cavan and Down probably have some scope for improvement in terms of rising a division. I think Monaghan are a fading force and may well suffer relegation next season as they have too many older players. Tyrone have to prove that their AI success wasn't a fluke but I think it could take a few years and another change of management before they get back to that level again. Donegal possibly have the best players but they have flattered to deceive and lack real leadership which will only worsen when Murphy retires. So Derry and Armagh are out in front at the minute but they will have to back up the improvements they made this season. Anything less than an Ulster title for Armagh next season would be a disappointment.
I think i'd rank teams based on the last 3 years than just this years.
I have taken all things into account but you can't argue that the current Derry aren't a completely different team to that of 3 years ago. Therefore its weighted heavily towards this years performances but again it's only my opinion and others can disagree if they want. If you were to base it off the last 3 years then Derry would be 5th or 6th ranked and you can't argue that the current Ulster champions are the 5th or 6th best team in the province.
If you want to take that approach, Cavan and Down are the top ranked teams in Ulster as they both have 5 All-Irelands.
Football is seasonal, on any given year there are countless factors in determining how "good" a team is. In 2022, Derry were the best team in Ulster having beaten the 3 previously ranked top teams in Ulster.
Will they do it again next year? Who knows.
Will Kerry win the AI next year again? Who knows. But even if they don't, they're still the best team in Ireland this year.
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Here's a stat to put to bed the notion of Tyrone currently being the best team in Ulster ...
They've played 8 games against Ulster teams in competitive football in 2022 and their record is lost 7 drawn 1!!
They did beat Fermanagh
Jesus, what is it about Derry and Armagh wans. Obsessed with Tyrone. Always. Rent Free.
Quote from: God14 on August 23, 2022, 10:01:13 PM
They did beat Fermanagh
Jesus, what is it about Derry and Armagh wans. Obsessed with Tyrone. Always. Rent Free.
Lol I forgot about Fermanagh... you got me Tyrone are definitely rated the best team in Ulster now 😂😂
Quote from: screenexile on August 23, 2022, 08:34:06 PM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Here's a stat to put to bed the notion of Tyrone currently being the best team in Ulster ...
They've played 8 games against Ulster teams in competitive football in 2022 and their record is lost 7 drawn 1!!
Ok, were terrible in 2022 but should be back in 2023.
Quote from: screenexile on August 23, 2022, 10:50:13 PM
Quote from: God14 on August 23, 2022, 10:01:13 PM
They did beat Fermanagh
Jesus, what is it about Derry and Armagh wans. Obsessed with Tyrone. Always. Rent Free.
Lol I forgot about Fermanagh... you got me Tyrone are definitely rated the best team in Ulster now 😂😂
Lol at the shape of this discussion
Looking forward to starting back at school lads?
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
On the idea of a champions tax, I'm convinced that the split-season is going to help teams retain Sam.
I think the much longer gap between the final and being allowed start collective training/the start of the league will be a massive help for whoever is champion.
Quote from: twohands!!! on August 24, 2022, 11:18:28 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
On the idea of a champions tax, I'm convinced that the split-season is going to help teams retain Sam.
I think the much longer gap between the final and being allowed start collective training/the start of the league will be a massive help for whoever is champion.
I would agree on that. More recuperative time for players to rest up both mentally and physically. Letting them enjoy their down time and the reduced pressure of the club season can only be a good thing for players and also help prolong playing careers which had been shortening gradually.
Watching successful lads like McCaffrey and Mannion seeking time out of the game in their mid 20s due to the workload was becoming almost normal. The biggest challenge for lower ranked counties is to retain a core group of players that they can build something with and the split season can only help with that too.
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
To be fair Blanketattack is one of the only posters on this thread without skin in the game and properly unbiased. You can make an argument to suit the narrative you want to project to favour Tyrone, Armagh, Derry etc. I'd still be placing any money for Ulster on Tyrone because in my view I think they will bounce back an return to their pre 2022 form of making the semi's most years. They've got that longer term track record plus some strong under age coming through. It's hardly surprising that posters will rate the teams differently.
Quote from: trueblue1234 on August 24, 2022, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
To be fair Blanketattack is one of the only posters on this thread without skin in the game and properly unbiased. You can make an argument to suit the narrative you want to project to favour Tyrone, Armagh, Derry etc. I'd still be placing any money for Ulster on Tyrone because in my view I think they will bounce back an return to their pre 2022 form of making the semi's most years. They've got that longer term track record plus some strong under age coming through. It's hardly surprising that posters will rate the teams differently.
It wouldn't surprise me if they won Ulster and made the AISF/AIF next year. However, It wouldn't overly surprise me if they had a similar year to this one
The challenge for both Connacht and Ulster is to reduce the proportion of all Irelands won by Kerry and Dublin. They have won more than half of the Sams over the last 2 decades.
90s was the only decade in in the last 50 years that Kerry and Dublin didn't win a majority of Sams.
That great decade saw Down 2 Meath 2 Galway, Derry, Donegal, Kerry, Cork, Dublin 1 each.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 28, 2022, 10:50:57 AM
90s was the only decade in in the last 50 years that Kerry and Dublin didn't win a majority of Sams.
That great decade saw Down 2 Meath 2 Galway, Derry, Donegal, Kerry, Cork, Dublin 1 each.
Why leave out the 60s when the hoors only got 3 ?
Because the 60s are more than 50 years ago? Only the likes of Orior can remember them days.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 28, 2022, 07:51:38 PM
Because the 60s are more than 50 years ago? Only the likes of Orior can remember them days.
50 years is arbitrary
2000-2009 had 1 Galway, 1 Amagh , 3 Tyrone and 5 Kerry.
50/50 isn't bad
The following decade had 1 Cork 1 donegal 1 Kerry and 7 Dublin.
The collapse of Meath is significant.
https://www.rte.ie/sport/football/2022/0829/1319316-mckenna-blow-for-tyrone-as-star-set-for-return-to-oz/
Quote from: trueblue1234 on August 24, 2022, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
To be fair Blanketattack is one of the only posters on this thread without skin in the game and properly unbiased. You can make an argument to suit the narrative you want to project to favour Tyrone, Armagh, Derry etc. I'd still be placing any money for Ulster on Tyrone because in my view I think they will bounce back an return to their pre 2022 form of making the semi's most years. They've got that longer term track record plus some strong under age coming through. It's hardly surprising that posters will rate the teams differently.
It may well be that Blanket Attack is unbiased, without skin in the game, but in itself that does not confer authority onto his claim "Tyrone are no.1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland".
Possibly Tyrone might reach that spot next year, but as it stands now they are not nr. 1&2. You can't credibly claim a team is currently nr. 1&2 based on a speculation about the glory days of future performances. :)
Quote from: Main Street on August 31, 2022, 01:34:44 AM
Quote from: trueblue1234 on August 24, 2022, 11:44:42 AM
Quote from: yellowcard on August 24, 2022, 11:05:00 AM
Quote from: blanketattack on August 23, 2022, 05:01:12 PM
Tyrone are no. 1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland. They just had the 20% new champions tax.
The 8 All-Ireland winning Dublin footballers, the current Limerick hurlers and Cody with 11 All-Irelands couldn't retain the an All-Ireland as new champions, so Tyrone were never going to either. Kerry will have a similar tax next year which puts Tyrone front and central to win the All-Ireland. The starting XV v Mayo would already put them in the frame but throw in two Canavans and a fit McShane and they'd be well ahead of the possé.
McShane getting fully fit is a big ask though. He must be the oldest 26 year old around!
Champions tax, I've heard it all now! Currently they are not number 2 in Ulster never mind Ireland. Players like McShane and McKenna have flattered to deceive. McShane has not been the same player since he was given the package to stay at home and Darragh Canavan has produced little at county level to suggest he can nail down a place for Tyrone never mind make a difference. The younger Canavan looks like a good player but is still a few years away from making an impact at senior level. Harte and Donnelly and probably a few others have their best days behind them whilst they have already lost a good few squad players since winning the AI title. It doesn't seem like a happy, motivated camp to me. I don't think even the most ardent of Tyrone fan would claim that they are number 2 in Ireland.
To be fair Blanketattack is one of the only posters on this thread without skin in the game and properly unbiased. You can make an argument to suit the narrative you want to project to favour Tyrone, Armagh, Derry etc. I'd still be placing any money for Ulster on Tyrone because in my view I think they will bounce back an return to their pre 2022 form of making the semi's most years. They've got that longer term track record plus some strong under age coming through. It's hardly surprising that posters will rate the teams differently.
It may well be that Blanket Attack is unbiased, without skin in the game, but in itself that does not confer authority onto his claim "Tyrone are no.1 in Ulster and 2 in Ireland".
Possibly Tyrone might reach that spot next year, but as it stands now they are not nr. 1&2. You can't credibly claim a team is currently nr. 1&2 based on a speculation about the glory days of future performances. :)
No but it can infer he isn't tainted with heart ruling the head. Armagh and Derry have both been in the doldrums so Its not surprising that they will be hoping that this year is a changing of the guards. I don't think it's unreasonable to use a few years as a yard stick for speculation. One year might throw up the odd outlier (fingers crossed in Derry's case). It might not either, and could point to the start of a successful run. But either way they're only opinions.