Down Club Hurling & Football

[Smurfy123]

I don't think the division 4 teams would want reserve teams in division 4
Would the be able to compete?
Downjim are use hosting Slaughtneil this weekend before the big Ulster Match?

[downjim]

Yes Ulster fry's are are specialty

[downjim]

On a serious note, would it not benefit Down football to have a better standard in the lower divisions?? With senior matches on at the same time then the reserve panels would not be that strong

[qubdub]

On a serious note, would it not benefit Down football to have a better standard in the lower divisions?? With senior matches on at the same time then the reserve panels would not be that strong

I would tend to agree. I assume they would be able to compete in the junior championship? It happens in Armagh and as far as I know apart from some minor opposition the world hasn't ended. I think it would benefit Division 4 more than it would be detrimental. Teams from Division 4 struggle badly in Division 3 so it might help improve the standard overall.

[OgraAnDun]

Will 2nds teams be elegible for promotion to Div 3?

[outinfront]

Any first team getting promoted from 4 really will have earned it.  Some of those teams in premier reserve are strong enough. 

[johnneycool]

Yes Ulster fry's are are specialty

More like Creatine and protein shakes for those lads.

[thewobbler]

For me this isn't really a mattter of what's better for the county, for senior teams or reserve teams. It's a matter of whether it has a chance in hell of succeeding, and is therefore worth the effort involved.

If implemented, I fundamentally believe it would fall flat on its face within a year or two, due to the pre-existing culture / traditions within the clubs of Down.

The reason why, in 2017, Kerry clubs will happily merge to enter a senior championship is because they always have done. The barriers of suspicion, trust, favouritism and family rivalries might still exist, but they're much, much lower than in a county in which this has never (or rarely) happened. It's what you do if you're a smaller club, in Kerry. It's not what you do if you're a smaller club, in Down.

The reason why, in 2017, Crossmaglen and a few others can enter seconds teams in the Armagh leagues is becasue they always have done. There is an ethos within the club to support two senior football sides, and while I'm sure every year it poses a few pressure points, there will be a tranche of people within the club determined to keep it this way. As long as those people exist, two teams can exist.

We don't have that history / tradition in Down (not in the past 30 years anyway), so what this proposal needs for it to work, is clubs that are committed to changing their existing ways of doing things; clubs that can generate the (willing) manpower to split their efforts in two each Friday night, not just in terms of players, but in terms of management, administration, grounds staff, medical teams, and supporters.

From my own perspective, I have family and work commitments that makes it difficult to get to some senior games. But if Ballyholland were playing an ACFLI match in Castlewellan and simultaneously an ACFL4 game in Ballyholland, I'd be attending the former, even though it's an extra hour round trip. And that's me who has been a seconds footballer and mentor my entire life. I'd expect that larger clubs than my own would have a greater level of manpower to call on to run two teams. But, be honest, would they be willing?

I just don't see it myself.

[qubdub]

Armagh teams have not always enterted seconds teams. In the last 20 or so years Crossmaglen are the only team to have done so, with Killeavy (until this month an intermediate team) and Cullyhanna following suit in recent years. Other clubs have dabbled and it remains to be seen each year which teams will forward a seconds team. I don't see why such fluidity shouldn't be afforded in Down and in fact I don't see what there is to lose. At the end of the day only teams who feel they have the playing numbers and willingness to make it work will enter teams anyway.

[supersub]

The top 6 Seconds teams would defiantly compete in Division 4. It would basically be the current Premier Reserve Championship squads playing these games if they were at the same time. I'd say a few of the Seconds teams could give the Div 4 and Junior Chanpionship a good rattle. I believe a Seconds team would not be able to go any further than Div 3 under the proposals.

[bigarsedkeeper]

I don't think there is many clubs in down could set up with 2 senior teams on a Friday night. It wouldn't just be a matter of the premier reserve team playing because at least 10 (if not all of it in the case of the bigger sides with 30+ togged out on a Friday night) of that side is togged out for the 1st team. We are down to only a handful of clubs now that can field a 3rds team now (only 7 that I can think of) and 2 of them are in the 2nd division. That would tell you that there's not many clubs with 45 players which is what you would need to make that work. But maybe it would encourage more players to stay on in that drop out age if they're playing div 3 or 4 on a Friday instead of reserve football on a Sunday. From my own experience Sundays don't seem to be working for young fellas now - Saturday nights seem to last longer than when I was younger.

There's also big questions to ask to how it works. If you play for the 1st team does that automatically rule you out for the 2nd team? There's the whole issue with regular football for lads too. How do you manage to name a squad of say 25 players and tell the last couple of lads on that panel they more than likely won't get a game week in week out. At the minute those lads at least can play for the 2nds on a Sunday after. Maybe that's not a issue in the bigger clubs though. It would be interesting to hear the view from the big clubs on it.

[eyeswideopen]

How do we define a (B) team?
The current system of naming a Top 13 within a club who are only allowed to play for the (A) team is abused by many clubs. Does this need reviewed and redefined?
Are (B) teams only allowed into the ACFL where a club is also fielding a 3rd team in Reserve football?
Would it be fair to say a player can only represent 1 team in the ACFL1,2,3,4 in a season?
Or a player can move up to the (A) team but not down to the (B) team?
Resulting in players dropping from the (A) to the (C) team in the Reserve league when out of favour.
If a player has played Senior Championship the previous season should he be allowed to play Junior Championship the next?
All Question needing answered.

[downjim]

Would a top 16 work?

[supersub]

How do we define a (B) team?
The current system of naming a Top 13 within a club who are only allowed to play for the (A) team is abused by many clubs. Does this need reviewed and redefined?
Are (B) teams only allowed into the ACFL where a club is also fielding a 3rd team in Reserve football?
Would it be fair to say a player can only represent 1 team in the ACFL1,2,3,4 in a season?
Or a player can move up to the (A) team but not down to the (B) team?
Resulting in players dropping from the (A) to the (C) team in the Reserve league when out of favour.
If a player has played Senior Championship the previous season should he be allowed to play Junior Championship the next?
All Question needing answered.

Don't think it is any more to be fair. A bit more attention paid to it now.

[DownFanatic]

I think it is a positive thing that Down CCC are always looking at ways to improve our competitions and there has obviously been a lot of thought go into these new proposals. However, I'm not sure it will work.
Clubs like Kilcoo and Burren are increasingly using the depth of their panel to get through their Division 1 campaigns. Both probably used at least 30 different players this year.
I've no doubt the likes of Kilcoo, Burren, Clonduff and Mayobridge could cater for two senior teams in the ACFL structure.
Looking at the Armagh model the likes of Crossmaglen II's and Cullyhanna II's have essentially become a distinct entity within their club. But do our top clubs have the desire to run two teams on Friday night? Think of the logistics and personnel required to do this. Then there are the demands of the first team manager who may want 27/28 players to travel with his squad.
I'd be more inclined to see things stay how they are in this instance.
For me, and I've mooted it before, but four divisions of eight teams and one division of ten teams I think is and always has been our best option.
A two way league gives 14 fixtures for the top four divisions and 18 fixtures for the fifth division. After the league proper in the top four divisions the top four teams would go into a round robin playoff system with the top two teams at the end of this earning promotion and the top placed team winning the league. The bottom four teams would enter a relegation playoff round robin series with the bottom two getting relegated. In division five the top four teams would contest the promotion playoff only.
This all guarantees a definitive 17 league games per season for divisions 1 to 4 and at least 18 (maximum of 21) in division 5. I also think it would provide for much sterner competition and allows for a bit more flexibility with the calendar.
To add to this I'd bring in a Novice Championship. It would be essentially the fourth grade after the SFC, IFC and JFC. Teams beaten in the preliminary round and quarter finals of the JFC would then enter the NFC. Teams at the bottom of the basement division need something to strive for. The establishment of the Donard Cup and Shield has gone someway to addressing this but a proper Novice Championship would add a lot more prestige and value. Cork and Kerry run with one of these two.

Could look something like this going on this year's league positions:

Division 1

Castlewellan - Warrenpoint - Mayobridge - Burren - Kilcoo - Bryansford - Clonduff - Downpatrick

Division 2

Ballyholland - An Riocht - Longstone - Glenn - Saval - Rostrevor - Carryduff - Loughinisland

Division 3

Bredagh - St John's - Liatroim - Darragh Cross - Ballymartin - Shamrocks - Annaclone - Drumaness

Division 4

Tullylish - Clann na Banna - Drumgath - Saul - Glasdrumman - Bosco - Dundrum - Atticall

Division 5

Teconnaught - St Paul's - Ardglass - Dromara - Kilclief - St Michael's - Bright - Mitchels - Aghaderg - Ballykinlar