Is FF gone as a party?

Started by macker15, April 10, 2021, 10:59:54 PM

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Itchy

Quote from: mouview on April 11, 2021, 07:29:09 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 04:57:40 PM

You justr cannot be serious! The sight of little Aaron, a five year old, having to eat his dinner off a pavement in Dublin cost FG thousands of votes.  There wasn't a shred of concern for the homeless and FG had a totally ineffectual mimistert, Eoghan Murphy, who was losing hands down to the Sinn Fein spokesman on houising.
I mean alll this happened in the very recent past  and there's any amount of links you can reference.
The aspersions you cast on the homeless are without foundation- if you google a few reports in any half decent   newspaper, you won't have to trawl far to get the truth.
FG did not cause the homeless situation in the fierst place. There had been a lack of social housing for years before they took over but, by God, they made a bad situation much worse.
And another thing, the oul' platitude that FG was always ready to do their public duty and were ever ready to step in and restore the country's finances after a spell of FF mismanagement at the helm doesn't stand up to scrutiny because every time they succeeded FF in government they got dumped on their arses next time around!
Enda was the first FG taoiseach to win a second time in ofice.

And why does Aaron have to eat his dinner off the footpath in the first place? What were Mammy (and Daddy if he was lucky) doing about it? What were SF going to do about it, with their money-tree economics? Who was minding the kids when those two hit off to Dubai for 'cosmetic surgery' last week? When it came to doing the time for it, they objected, saying there was no-one to mind them. Of course, provision has to be made for providing emergency accommodation and housing for genuine cases. How many times do you read of addicts having beds in hostels and preferring to sleeping rough instead. There simply has to be more of an onus on people in this nation to look out for themselves and not to be encouraged to look for the easy way out of social welfare and free housing constantly.

Spoken like a true FG man. I'd prefer to take my information about the terrible increases in homelessness and the reason for same from the many heros on the ground dealing with it. Using an obscure example to try and paint a general picture is the stuff of FG.

weareros

When I was young I would have jumped for joy if FF was wiped out: they stood for everything I saw bad about Ireland: a land of brown envelopes, too much power for the church, the narrow mindedness that blocked divorce in 1986, awful planning which had its apotheosis in ghost estates, zombie hotels, and bank bailouts, and of course high emigration of youth. That's a bygone Ireland fir the most part so it doesn't seem quite the celebration now. Ireland is a centrist country so a centrist party could always make a comeback. Fine Gael seemed dead and buried at one stage and those of us who were Labour voters at time thought Ireland was about to go Left/Right and to a more adversarial two party parliament like UK. But Irish people are not as binary as those who study politics in places like UCD and Trinity like to think. Of course they are thinking the same again with Left Right Sinn Fein/FG battles of the future. FG did come back from dead all those years ago by cornering a lot of the Libertarian voter, liberal on social issues, and liberal on free market economics, and retaining gentleman farmers down the country. FF however are badly lost at moment, but it is nothing a new charismatic leader could not solve. The bastards.

Itchy

Quote from: weareros on April 11, 2021, 08:03:47 PM
When I was young I would have jumped for joy if FF was wiped out: they stood for everything I saw bad about Ireland: a land of brown envelopes, too much power for the church, the narrow mindedness that blocked divorce in 1986, awful planning which had its apotheosis in ghost estates, zombie hotels, and bank bailouts, and of course high emigration of youth. That's a bygone Ireland fir the most part so it doesn't seem quite the celebration now. Ireland is a centrist country so a centrist party could always make a comeback. Fine Gael seemed dead and buried at one stage and those of us who were Labour voters at time thought Ireland was about to go Left/Right and to a more adversarial two party parliament like UK. But Irish people are not as binary as those who study politics in places like UCD and Trinity like to think. Of course they are thinking the same again with Left Right Sinn Fein/FG battles of the future. FG did come back from dead all those years ago by cornering a lot of the Libertarian voter, liberal on social issues, and liberal on free market economics, and retaining gentleman farmers down the country. FF however are badly lost at moment, but it is nothing a new charismatic leader could not solve. The bastards.

Well its true that they have without doubt (and leaving party allegiances asdide) the worst leader they have ever had and the worst Taoiseach the country ever has seen, missing in action in a global pandemic. But where will this new charasmatic leader come from, I dont see anything but the same old same old in the party ranks. And thats a good thing.

seafoid

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:46:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2021, 05:41:06 PM
Politics in Ireland now is a game of musical chairs.

Whoever is in power when the next crash happens will be destroyed at the following election. Voters like the perception of competence and crashes destroy this.

https://youtu.be/dPUhxJHo_Bs



If FF are that party next time they are fucked but if they are not they will own the future.

You are basically calling voters Stupid. I dont accept that given FF ran the country for decades under all sorts of appalling events. Give voters a bit more credit than that.

The parties are stupid. The voters are not.
It's a groupthink problem..The parties listen to the Department of Finance. They don't listen to.the people
. This is why the airports are open.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

seafoid

What was FF? It was the party of patronage for people often with the béal bocht who thought the State owed them something. FF ran its clinics bestowing on its voters the rights to which they were entitled anyway.

There was always an undercurrent of resentment mixed defiance. Like McCreevy saying "When I have money I spend it". As if  planning was just for educated people.

Cowen was the epitome of late successful FF.  He was supposed to be the brains with the mind for the numbers but was unfortunately in charge when the shit hit the fan. And it was all a show. Nobody in FF knew what to do.

Whatever happens, FF's constituency is still out there, bitching. Whoever wins it probably wins the big prize.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Snapchap

Quote from: ardtole on April 11, 2021, 01:44:12 PM
The social democrats are likely to increase their vote and seats at the next election. They have a few impressive tds and id expect them do well in future.

If the sdlp were to align themselves with a 26 county party, the Social Democrats would be a better fit than either ff or fg.

Ah now come on, Claire Hanna is already confused enough as it is:

- Member of the SDLP
- In a partnership with FF
- Vocal supporter of Labour
- Cavassed for at least two FG candidates in the last GE.

Now you want to add the Soc Dems to the mix?

weareros

Quote from: seafoid on April 11, 2021, 08:33:49 PM
What was FF? It was the party of patronage for people often with the béal bocht who thought the State owed them something. FF ran its clinics bestowing on its voters the rights to which they were entitled anyway.

There was always an undercurrent of resentment mixed defiance. Like McCreevy saying "When I have money I spend it". As if  planning was just for educated people.

Cowen was the epitome of late successful FF.  He was supposed to be the brains with the mind for the numbers but was unfortunately in charge when the shit hit the fan. And it was all a show. Nobody in FF knew what to do.

Whatever happens, FF's constituency is still out there, bitching. Whoever wins it probably wins the big prize.
It's out there but SF have taken it (for now and likely until they get to govern). A staunch Fine Gaeler who left the party, so disgusted was he with Enda Kenny, and moved over to FF told me his reasons, a good few years ago: Fianna Fáil will always give the working man something but Fine Gael have to have their foot on your throat all the time.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.

FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.
Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Itchy

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.

FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.
Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.

Silver hill

Let's put the Storey funeral issue to bed.
Michelle O'Neill was under massive pressure from grass roots in Belfast to attend his funeral given his standing in Republican circles, basically, after adams and McGuinness, he was the next man up.
Now, irrespective of his standing, MON should have seen the bigger picture and stayed well clear. Even she wasn't that stupid that wouldn't have known that unionists would have been all over it. This is where her arrogance comes into play. She thought she could go to the funeral, it would get stormy for a few days but ultimately, they would ride it out.
In saying that, did the funeral party itself actually break any of the rules?
Either in the church or at the cemetery?
There have been numerous funerals north, south, England etc, with thousands lining the streets. ( the guard in Mayo and Vera Lynn being two obvious answers). Most funerals throughout the country would break the restriction rules if you counted all the people that line the route.
Psni recommended prosecutions- what more could they have done in the eyes of Arlene and co? Now they're calling for byrnes head? What did they want, 59 cops wading into the funeral...how was that going to end?
DPP get the file and throw it out because there was no chance of a prosecution due to the negotiations pre funeral and the ambiguity re the numbers and the vagueness of the law.
DUP then want Herron from Dpp to step down.
Now they're rioting supposedly because of this and protocol that was completely of their own making and are blaming the 'criminals' Sinn Fein. Complete deadcatting.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.

FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.
Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.
Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Silver hill on April 11, 2021, 10:57:20 PM
Let's put the Storey funeral issue to bed.
Michelle O'Neill was under massive pressure from grass roots in Belfast to attend his funeral given his standing in Republican circles, basically, after adams and McGuinness, he was the next man up.
Now, irrespective of his standing, MON should have seen the bigger picture and stayed well clear. Even she wasn't that stupid that wouldn't have known that unionists would have been all over it. This is where her arrogance comes into play. She thought she could go to the funeral, it would get stormy for a few days but ultimately, they would ride it out.
In saying that, did the funeral party itself actually break any of the rules?
Either in the church or at the cemetery?
There have been numerous funerals north, south, England etc, with thousands lining the streets. ( the guard in Mayo and Vera Lynn being two obvious answers). Most funerals throughout the country would break the restriction rules if you counted all the people that line the route.
Psni recommended prosecutions- what more could they have done in the eyes of Arlene and co? Now they're calling for byrnes head? What did they want, 59 cops wading into the funeral...how was that going to end?
DPP get the file and throw it out because there was no chance of a prosecution due to the negotiations pre funeral and the ambiguity re the numbers and the vagueness of the law.
DUP then want Herron from Dpp to step down.
Now they're rioting supposedly because of this and protocol that was completely of their own making and are blaming the 'criminals' Sinn Fein. Complete deadcatting.
Not so fast!
We are talking about 26 county politics here and the effect it has on public opinion as  the SF party leaders ignored all the safety stuff they had agreed with to attend the funeral of a strong link with their republican past. It incensed many voters here and SF's showing in opinion polls reflected this.
The guard in Mayo and the funeral of Vera Lynn are side issues. A political party  disregarding its own policies when it suits them  is another matter.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Itchy

Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:01:25 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.

FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.
Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.
Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

I've no idea what you are asking me to point out to you, what you said about SF in the last GF? What's this about?

As for the funeral, you've just bought a load of propaganda shoved down your throat by the usual suspects. Were you similarly outraged by John Humes funeral for example, or the garda funeral. Its totally up to you who you vote for but voting because of a funeral ranks up there as one of the daftest reasons I've heard yet.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 11:14:59 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 11:01:25 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 10:26:14 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 11, 2021, 10:21:54 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:12:18 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 11:20:33 AM
Tubberman is spot on.
The North has little to do with how most in the 26 Vote.
The 14% new voters SF gained between May 19 and Feb 20 were mainly a dissatisfied 2 fingers to the establishment younger cohort.

FF are still the Builders party going by the Housing Minister's proposed new Legislation.
They may survive as the kingmakers in Coalitions if they can maintain 15 to 20 seats.

Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. They'll publicly agree on all their ills but when they get into the voting station they'll heat their daddy and grand daddy's whispering to them to tick FF.

The younger generation dont give a shit about this tradition but the FF boys can not bring themselves to face reality and so they talk about losing votes due to protest.
Well Itchy, one more time you are barking up the wrong tree. (And that's not the first time either!)
I voted SF in the last GF.
I taught for years in Finglas and, over the years, many of my past pupils became SF activists and through some of them I got to know Dessie Ellis. Through him I got semi-friendly with MLMD and I generallly trust  her on most things. Buit I am wary of the party's republican past and when I saw the massive turnout for Storey's funeral, with no regard for Covid restrictions, I decided that SF isn't the party for me. The links to the past are still too strong.
With regard to what I have said about SF's showing in the last GF, I ivite you to point out anything I said that is incorrect. Throwing insults all aroud like a windmill in a hurricane is no substitute for cold, hard facts.

If your moral barometer is horrified by people attending a funeral good luck finding someone else to vote for. Homeless crisis, no housing for young people, golfgate it goes on and on.
Here's the windmill in action again! ;D
I'm still waiting...give me a single instance where you say I was wrong about SF in the last GF. Can't be simpler than that.
My moral barometer isn't bothered about funerals one way or the other. But this was no ordinary funeral at no ordinary time and damn well you know it.
Just as you can't half turn off the gas or half kick someone up the hole, you can't half observe stated government safety restrictions.

I've no idea what you are asking me to point out to you, what you said about SF in the last GF? What's this about?

As for the funeral, you've just bought a load of propaganda shoved down your throat by the usual suspects. Were you similarly outraged by John Humes funeral for example, or the garda funeral. Its totally up to you who you vote for but voting because of a funeral ranks up there as one of the daftest reasons I've heard yet.
What has John Hume's funeral got to do with alll this? Sf preached one thing about Covid restrictions but on this occasion practiced something else.
This is what I said about SF in my first post:I personally like MLMD but I don't think SF is anywhere near becoming the dominant force in the republic- not yet anyway.
Coming into the last GF, they were lagging well behind in the opinion polls. They did very well because FFG was useless. "
And this is what you had to say to Rossfan:
"Spoken like a true closet FF voter. This is the rare breed I'm telling you about. I dare say Lar is one too. "
I have asked you to prove what you have to say about me. You didn't get it from what I had said about SF's current standing in the opinion polls or anywhere else.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Tubberman on April 11, 2021, 05:52:26 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2021, 05:44:12 PM
Quote from: Itchy on April 11, 2021, 05:34:03 PM
I voted sinn fein in last number of elections, not ashamed to say it either to anyone who asks. However I find it odd a fella who talks shite day after day  on an Internet forum under a pseudonym would be too shy to admit who they voted for
Last GE I voted Independent 1 and 2.
I left FF, FG and SF blank.
Happy now?

Tell us who the independents were, we can then apply some scrutiny to them.

You have some neck on you!
Yeah, I think he must be from Glangevlin. My missus is and God knows they all are as cranky as f**k around that part! Itchy just might be my father-in-law. ;D
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi