Hamas attack Israel & subsequent genocide

[PadraicHenryPearse]

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

[ThereAndBackAgain]

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

When you're on your knees and fighting for the very existence of your country then yes, I'd say it's excusable to abstain on a vote that could harm you. You have the luxury of sitting on your high horse while not having to endure random missile attacks or the possibility of freezing to death this winter. How nice for you.
 

[tonto1888]

Ukraine voted against a ceasefire in Gaza, the hyprocritical shower of scumbags, they can go f**k themselves from now on as far as I'm concerned.

Yep. A f**king disgrace after the whole world rowed in behind them.

Can't you read? They didn't vote against it.

Did you row in behind Ukraine Armagh18, eh?

They abstained, which in my eyes equals voting against. Same as the Brits

Ireland was a member of the Axis during WW2 because they were weren't a member of the Allies. 

Totally different. But you know that anyway

Yes of course my statement is incorrect, a bit like saying an abstention is the same as a vote against at the UN. No one knows what pressure is being brought to bear on Ukraine. They are in a fight for their survival and their biggest ally has shown recent signs of wavering. But sure they should just take a moral stance and take it on the chin when the essential to their very survival flow of aid and weapons dries up.

They [rightly in my view] asked for, expected and accepted worldwide support for their resistance to an invasion by Russia.

They sought support for their stance in the UN criticising the invasion and used Russia's flagrant targetting of civilians and civilan infrastructure as a means of garnering sympathy and support for their cause.

Their gutless abstention the other night completely undermines that cause in my view. Using the targetting of civilians as means of raising support for your own cause but not showing an iota of empathy for an  even greater war crime is despicable.

I am fairly certain that a large percentage of people will share that view and that there will be a massive decrease in support for the Ukrainian cause as result of this. And rightly so.

You say all this with the luxury of not having Russian missiles raining down on your head and having to rely on certain allies for your survival. But sure, according to you, more Ukrainian children should now die because of the political situation Ukraine finds itself in. You're an idealistic fool.

Yeah I am sort of foolish like that tbf. Chagrined now that you've pointed it out.

Silly old me, I Find myself liking people more when they vote against dropping high explosives on babies than when they don't.

Wish I was a bit more sensible and pragmatic like yourself, maybe when I grow up who knows.

The Ukrainians know all about having high explosives dropped on them. I'm sure all they need is a good dose of your idealism to see them through this tight spot they're in.

which makes their decision to abstain even odder

Not really, when your very survival is reliant on aid and weapons from a wavering US. And an abstention is not a vote against, as I've pointed out many times already.

so you keep saying. An abstention may not be a vote against but it is certainly not a vote for. And as I said, it's odd from Ukraine. Until you consider that Zelensky is pretty much pro israel

There are 40 Million Ukrainians. Zelensky is not Ukraine.

many of whom are suffering at the hands of russia in the same way Palestinians are suffering at the hands of israel. Odd decision from Ukraine

IMO quite understandable given their reliance on the US. I wish it were otherwise. The US is an unreliable ally.

I can't disagree with your last line

[PadraicHenryPearse]

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

When you're on your knees and fighting for the very existence of your country then yes, I'd say it's excusable to abstain on a vote that could harm you. You have the luxury of sitting on your high horse while not having to endure random missile attacks or the possibility of freezing to death this winter. How nice for you.
 

edit - pointless trying engaging with you, and I'm sure you are running out of insults to call me at this stage!! 

[ThereAndBackAgain]

if you do something, say not vote against a genocide its only ok if you do it in your own self interest. 

self interest is a handy excuse... someone should tell the Israel and Russia to use this.

 

When you're on your knees and fighting for the very existence of your country then yes, I'd say it's excusable to abstain on a vote that could harm you. You have the luxury of sitting on your high horse while not having to endure random missile attacks or the possibility of freezing to death this winter. How nice for you.
 

on there knees, a few posts back you said they weren't losing.

Israel and Russia have and do use excuses for there actions all based on their own interests, that is a massive part of the issue.

I also said they aren't currently winning either. I'd say everything that Ukraine has endured over the past almost 2 years fits the description of being on your knees.

Israel and Russia are aggressors. Ukraine is defending itself. Big difference.

[PadraicHenryPearse]

more questions being asked, now by Haaretz.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000

and absolutely no two state solution

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1735002128135905602?t=MUdFfgeoUQ_Q8MMF_tam2g&s=19

[theskull1]

Norman Finkelstein vs Alan Dershowitz On Israel-Palestine War With Piers Morgan

The gaslighting of this genocide from the pro israel crowd is sickening

[armaghniac]

The gaslighting of this genocide from the pro israel crowd is sickening

The use of the word genocide is inappropriate. It is not difficult to condemn Israeli violence without having to use excessive language. It is this type of poor argument that facilitate this gaslighting, but people are playing to their own crowd with slogans rather than effectively condemning Israel.

[theskull1]

Definition from the man who invented the word in 1944. It's the right word AFAIC

Generally speaking, genocide does not necessarily mean the immediate destruction of a nation, except when accomplished by mass killings of all members of a nation. It is intended rather to signify a coordinated plan of different actions aiming at the destruction of essential foundations of the life of national groups, with the aim of annihilating the groups themselves. The objectives of such a plan would be the disintegration of the political and social institutions, of culture, language, national feelings, religion, and the economic existence of national groups, and the destruction of the personal security, liberty, health, dignity, and even the lives of the individuals belonging to such groups. Genocide is directed against the national group as an entity, and the actions involved are directed against individuals, not in their individual capacity, but as members of the national group.

[Jell 0 Biafra]

more questions being asked, now by Haaretz.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000

and absolutely no two state solution

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1735002128135905602?t=MUdFfgeoUQ_Q8MMF_tam2g&s=19

So no two state solution.  That leaves only 3 possibilities. An integrated state, which would  give Palestinians equal standing (not happening). An integrated explicitly apartheid state.

Or ethnic cleansing with an Israeli Jewish state from....um...the river to the sea.

Which seems more likely the end goal?

[PadraicHenryPearse]

more questions being asked, now by Haaretz.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2023-12-13/ty-article-opinion/.premium/if-israel-used-a-procedure-against-its-citizens-we-need-to-talk-about-it-now/0000018c-6383-de43-affd-f783212e0000

and absolutely no two state solution

https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1735002128135905602?t=MUdFfgeoUQ_Q8MMF_tam2g&s=19

So no two state solution.  That leaves only 3 possibilities. An integrated state, which would  give Palestinians equal standing (not happening). An integrated explicitly apartheid state.

Or ethnic cleansing with an Israeli Jewish state from....um...the river to the sea.

Which seems more likely the end goal?

the latter. Genocide is very much the appropriate word because in words at the very top of the Israeli government  and in actions that is what is happening.

[Itchy]

The gaslighting of this genocide from the pro israel crowd is sickening

The use of the word genocide is inappropriate. It is not difficult to condemn Israeli violence without having to use excessive language. It is this type of poor argument that facilitate this gaslighting, but people are playing to their own crowd with slogans rather than effectively condemning Israel.

I'm sorry but if this is not genocide then the word has no meaning. Israel isn't even bothering to pretend anymore, they are telling you straight up what their intentions are.

Dont believe me, here is Norman Finkelstein. A white American Jew, a man whose parents were in concentration camps and a expert on israel- palestine conflict calling it what it is

https://twitter.com/PiersUncensored/status/1735048067844337698?t=-MPJAoepAMyk8BPvA2j6bw&s=19

[imtommygunn]

The gaslighting of this genocide from the pro israel crowd is sickening

The use of the word genocide is inappropriate. It is not difficult to condemn Israeli violence without having to use excessive language. It is this type of poor argument that facilitate this gaslighting, but people are playing to their own crowd with slogans rather than effectively condemning Israel.

It's not gaslighting or inappropriate though. Look at what is happening. Look at how many children have died.

Tbh I think it is gaslighting to say it's not genocide.

[Armagh18]

Its the definition of genocide ffs.

[armaghniac]

Its the definition of genocide ffs.

It is not. Isreal has the arms to kill everyone in Gaza if they wanted to.
The analogy I used before was, this is analogous to the invasion of Poland, when many Poles were killed, but is not analogous to the holocaust, which actually was genocide.