Mayo Football and Hurling - Discussion pages

[Bod Mor]

First off may I commend you on a fine post Moysider and I'm not being coy here but I haven't ever posted the county I'm from in all my time here so if you'll indulge me I'll continue to do so. Suffice to say I have Munster and a major hurling team to support but football's my drug so the rugby doesn't do much for me and our hurling history is similar to Mayo's football one, so that narrows my home county down to one of 3 or 4.

Has to be Limerick! 

IMO if Mayo get a decent draw in the qualifiers then ye could do very well this year but Mayo fans have to be patient and whether it is JOM or somebody else they have to get more than a year or two before the knives come out.

I'll take nothing less than a Connacht title this year or I'll feckin do away with myself!

[the Deel Rover]

a great post there moysider is repsone to Zulu (who's post i enjoy but not allways agree with  ) in fairness to moyider i would consider him definitely one of the most knowledgeable of the mayo posters on the board here , be it discussing sigo college football with sligonian, mayo minors ( he was talking up the mayo minors this time last year along with R&g Sniper i think telling us about the young players coming through or going through various decades of mayo suffering and Heartbreak moysider imo you really know your stuff. keep her lit   

[Mayo4Sam]

A good debate going on here, just thought i'd add my 2 cents worth.

I should state first that I am a JOM fan, while my first Mayo memories are of Dublin in 85 JOM brought real joy in hyde in 89 and for all of that summer, and was badly shafted by the county board.

From the moment JOM was re-appointed Mayo manager it seems like half of the county has been down on him, a large amount of this has gto do with his choice of timing, coming up to a general election it was felt that he was coming back just to get elected. Maybe true maybe not, JOM had always said he'd like to manage Mayo to an AI and his hand was prob twisted to come back.

Moysider to say that he has never built a team isn't exactly true, maybe its a definitional thing, he won an U-21, when he inherited Mayos team he built them from a semi to an AIF, he had to deal with losing his best player halfway through 89. He went onto Leitrim and took them from almost being good enough to winning a CC. When he took over galway they had just lost in tuam for the first time since '51, yes he had young lads to bring thru but he had to bring them through all the same and make them into a team. He managed to get a good year out of divilly and got joyce, donnellan and savage to play in a team of established "stars", and dont forget that this was galways biggest problem.
I guess my point is that just because the players are there doesn't mean you dont have to build a team.

With regards to MacDanger, theres no good in going over it but JOM prob felt it was worth losing him to set down a marker or maybe it was just a communication problem.

I agree that it is very worrying that we are losing tight games, esp the galway match last year, a game we should have been able to kick on and win it, the tyrone match not so much, yes other teams mite have gotten that last point but knowing now what we know, how many teams would have been there? Not that i think we would have beaten dublin after that.

I think JOM deserves the benefit of the doubt for this year and next year, he has proven his worth in the past.

"If we lose this game we may as well burn the old town as there is no surer league points than Ballina"

A little OTT, a good derry team is coming down and it'll be a tough match, esp seen as the showgrounds will be a swamp and more than likely suit derry better

[OirthearMhaigheo]

Some great debates going on here indeed and it's nice to see things building up (slowly) before our first league game. Can I also say it's nice to see a neutral point of view on here in the form of Zulu, it's good to see someone without ulterior motives (are you listening RosnaR!) giving his tuppence worth.
I don't agree with alot of what your saying Moysider I would have to say but you do make your points well and at the end of the day we are all entitled to an opinion. I am also a Johnno fan (I may have said that once or twice!) so I would agree with nearly everything Mayo4Sam said above. I won't repeat everything again but just state that I agree with Mayo4sam that Johnno does have a track record of producing teams, that's undeniable. I see what you're saying Moysider about inheriting teams (Mayo '88/89, Leitrim '93/94, Galway '97/98) but he did make them into something, a little credit where it's due.
Where I would agree with you is I wonder has the game moved on and has Johnno moved with it? I would be worried about this as the signs aren't great that we are set up very well tactically. However, the signs are better this year that the problem positions are being looked at properly, Cafferky at FB and B Moran at FF are being given a right go in challenge matches and seem to be doing well. Contrary to some of the comments on here I think Johnno's man-management skills are excellent and his training methods always enjoyable, the supposed lads that are giving out are most likely subs or cast-aways from the squad.
Well it's January and we're already arguing the same points that we left off with in the summer so it's shaping up to be a long year off the pitch, here's hoping it will be a long one on it, I think we can all agree on that!

[RedandGreenSniper]

All a coach/manager can do is get the best out of what is available to him and when you are in the position Mayo are in, i.e. the group of 8 - 10 behind Tyrone and Kerry, then success or failure can rest on little things, many of which are outside the managers control. The reality is that Mayo could beat anyone of that  8-10 teams and if they avoided Kerry and Tyrone I think they could win the AI but they could also just as easily get beaten by any of those teams and would almost definitely get beaten by Tyrone or Kerry./

This is the key. You are right Zulu. All a manager can do is work with what he has but I've a few observations on that.

Moysider mentions the fact that O'Mahony has never built teams. Not quite true, there was work to do in Leitrim and in Galway. I won't comment on Mayo and Liam O'Neill because I wasn't old enough at the time. The difference with Mayo at the minute is there is a lot more rebuilding to be done and JOM isn't blessed with an outstanding team.

People might point out that we have an Under 21 winning team from 2006 to call on and a decent minor team from this year. Well the minors are obviously a question for later on, its too early yet. But on the under 21's I've always been of the opinion that they were an average team very well motivated and very well managed by Holmes and Connelly. Realistically what players from that team are regulars on the senior team? You could only be completely confident with saying Keith Higgins. Of course the lack of a good flow of players makes the importance of players like Heaney, Nallen, O'Neill and, dare I say it, McDonald, even more pronounced.

I think Mayo supporters, in the main, are realistic about the talent available to us Zulu and I'd be fairly scouring the county looking for someone who thinks we'll win the All-Ireland. That is not the issue with Mayo fans and I don't think anyone is mad or frustrated with JOM because he hasn't won an All-Ireland with us. Nothing could be further from the truth.

But, going back to your point, about only being able to work with what he has, this is the key.
A lot of people in Mayo are not impressed with how JOM has used the players available to him. A good few of us highlighted how dangerous it was to play Shrule's Kieran Conroy at full-back last year for the Galway game (Connacht final). He never played full-back for club or county prior to 08 and JOM threw him on in a league game against Laois when Billy Joe got injured. He decided to stick with him and also place Colm Boyle, a light but fast attacking wing-back, in corner-back, another player with practically no experience in that position. Galway scored two first half goals as our defence was torn wide apart. Boyle and Conroy were both taken off in the first half. JOM was praised for acting decisively. That sickened my hole. So many could forsee the problems but JOM ploughed on. That we only lost by a point to Galway after such a disasterous start shows how capable we were of winning that game IF JOM had worked well with the players he had. He didn't and he alone must stand culpaple for that. That is one massive issue Mayo supporters have.

Then to the Tyrone game. We didn't get crucified on the line that day and Peadar Gardiner was finally back playing in his best position of wing-back where he did wonderfully well on Brian Dooher. To an neutral observer, the fact that we kept the eventual All-Ireland winners to one point reflects well on Mayo and JOM.  But Tyrone were cat that day. So cat in fact that I lumped on Dublin to beat them. They turned the corner in the Dublin game but, when they played us, they were still the team that had lost to Down in the Ulster championship. We had that game for the taking in the final ten minutes. But our players didn't have the belief. Their fault or the managers? I really don't know, people will have differeing opinions on this. But what I will say is while JOM is not known as a tactical genuis, he is known for an ability to organise teams for games and for instilling belief. He spoke of how he would like to have taken the Mayo team after their 06 All-Ireland semi win over Dublin. In that Tyrone game Mayo showed even less belief than in the 06 final. Kerry were never there for the taking, Tyrone were but we couldn't do it. For me that doesn't reflect superbly on management.

It means that the only teams beaten in championship by JOM's Mayo are Sligo and Cavan. Not good.

You say Mayo are one of the teams below Kerry and Tyrone, a group of 8-10 teams who are all capable of beating each other. Possibly. Factors outside our control might play a part but the feeling here is that factors in JOM's control have been the reason for losing games. You can only play with the players you have. JOM hasn't imo.

What would be a good year for Mayo? Getting to a Connacht final (believe me when I say it that Roscommon, if they get over Leitrim, will give us a serious run for our money and I won't rule out losing that) and playing Galway and if we lose, so be it. But let defeat come with so little what ifs that have plagued us. What I mean is let us show belief and character, let us have the best XV on the field and if that is not good enough, well que sera sera.
After that we're in the qualifiers. I'd like to see us play a team among these eight  to ten teams at the same level of us and beat them. An Armagh, a Monaghan, even Laois. Then we're in a quarter-final with a good result under our belt (either as Connacht champions or after beating someone half decent in the qualifiers). Perhaps that will instill confidence and we might do well in the quarter-final, perhaps even win it if we avoid Kerry and, to a lesser extent, Tyrone.

But its not entirely impossible that we have a domesday scenario of being beaten by the Rossies and then losing to the likes of Limerick or Offaly in the qualifiers.

[westmayo]

It means that the only teams beaten in championship by JOM's Mayo are Sligo (twice) and Cavan. Not good.

It's worse than that Red and Green, it's only Sligo once in 08, sure Galway beat us in the pre-lim round in 07.
Two championship wins in two years

[Mayo4Sam]

I do think Mayo will have a serious job getting over Ros this summer, assuming they beat leitrim. The seem to be rejuvenated and under O'Donnell i think they'll have a real shot at connaught. For my money it'll be the toughest connaught to win in a long time

[RedandGreenSniper]

It means that the only teams beaten in championship by JOM's Mayo are Sligo (twice) and Cavan. Not good.

It's worse than that Red and Green, it's only Sligo once in 08, sure Galway beat us in the pre-lim round in 07.
Two championship wins in two years

Good spot

[Farrandeelin]

I do think Mayo will have a serious job getting over Ros this summer, assuming they beat leitrim. The seem to be rejuvenated and under O'Donnell i think they'll have a real shot at connaught. For my money it'll be the toughest connaught to win in a long time

Totally agree M4S. Where is the game due to be played? If it's in the Hyde I'd be travelling more in hope than expectation. I don't think it is though. As for the bold - definitely for Mayo it's the toughest in a long time anyway.

[RedandGreenSniper]

Pretty sure Mayo are at home to the winners of Leitrim v the Rossies. The only championship game that'll be in the new McHale Park this summer (unless qualifiers of course).

Will be a very tough Connacht championship - was it 2001 that Mayo, Galway, Sligo and Roscommon were the four league semi-finalists? That was amazing when ya think about it. Also the last year Roscommon won

[spectator]

Will be a very tough Connacht championship - was it 2001 that Mayo, Galway, Sligo and Roscommon were the four league semi-finalists?

Well remembered - ye bet us with a flurry of late scores in the semi played in Sligo, after we'd somewhat wasted our first half dominance. Disappointed to lose that day, but fair play as ye made it count in the final.

http://www.sligochampion.ie/sport/gaelic-football/mayo146s-staying-power-sees-them-through-to-final-950388.html

Ros should be competitive this year, but we're coming from such a low base we won't have the quality to match yourselves or Galway for seventy minutes of championship football. It's a long road back for Ros to reach Mayo \ Galway standards and it won't be done in year one, that's for sure.

If Johnno can nail down some of the central positions during the league, ye'll be well set up for giving it a good go this year, imo.

[Owenmoresider]

I do think Mayo will have a serious job getting over Ros this summer, assuming they beat leitrim. The seem to be rejuvenated and under O'Donnell i think they'll have a real shot at connaught. For my money it'll be the toughest connaught to win in a long time

Yep the word is good from the Rossie camp, amazing what a change of management can bring. Still will need to step it up but my initial thought that Leitrim would beat them isn't that way now, even in fortress Carrick. They will pose problems for Mayo then. We might get ourselves back on track this Spring, but it will be a big ask to beat Galway.

Re the 2001 league, and the four Connacht semi-finalists, it must be said that Foot and Mouth brought it about, as Tyrone were ruled out when going well. What's strange is, those four teams were all down in Division Three fives years earlier, and Leitrim towered above all of us in the dizzy heights of Division Two. Changed times all round.

[rosnarun]

but on the under 21's I've always been of the opinion that they were an average team very well motivated and very well managed by Holmes and Connelly.

is tht not the point the senior team do not look well motivated and very well managed. there is a massive selection of intercounty standard players from several goo U21 and minor teams over the last decade and more talented individuals from bad teams. the mangers job is to put his head on the block and pick the best 15 . he does not have the Luxury like us of picking a different team every time we log on.
But this is what he should live or die by. he has made a balls so far and been rewarded with an extension go figure .

this recession is a real nostalgia trip if were getting worried about roscommon again

[RedandGreenSniper]

but on the under 21's I've always been of the opinion that they were an average team very well motivated and very well managed by Holmes and Connelly.

is tht not the point the senior team do not look well motivated and very well managed. there is a massive selection of intercounty standard players from several goo U21 and minor teams over the last decade and more talented individuals from bad teams. the mangers job is to put his head on the block and pick the best 15 . he does not have the Luxury like us of picking a different team every time we log on.
But this is what he should live or die by. he has made a balls so far and been rewarded with an extension go figure .

this recession is a real nostalgia trip if were getting worried about roscommon again

Yes they should be well motivated and well managed, I agree, and there does seem to be a shortfall in this regard - I've said that several times. Can't say there's a massive selection of players of inter-county standard though Ros. I could name maybe ten players who aren't in or around the panel now. Of those I can only think of one who would be on the starting team in my opinion. We don't have a wealth of talent, that's the reality I think. Are we getting the best of the talent we have? I don't think so but I'm prepared to be patient for this season

[moysider]

I do think Mayo will have a serious job getting over Ros this summer, assuming they beat leitrim. The seem to be rejuvenated and under O'Donnell i think they'll have a real shot at connaught. For my money it'll be the toughest connaught to win in a long time

Glad somebody posted this. I made a resolution earlier today that there would be no more realism from me and I would enjoy the stuff on the pitch, which is, at the end of the day the stuff that counts.
  Then I read this and I feel a knot in my stomach and I m reminded of the real fear from the late 70s when Roscommon bitch -slapped us around the place - even in McHale Park. There was no consolation in those beatings (not defeats).
  Not quite sure how to take this on board. Mayo are at home v Ros/Leitrim, so why the jitters? We ve a manager in place for 2 years rebuilding, so why the jitters? Ros only have a rookie senior manager.

  But people are getting jittery and probably rightly so. I dont get jittery anymore. Eventually you just use it all up and a sort of numbness or acceptance sets in. Either that or you stroke/ forget about it.

  Here s a few stats that I believe show that the real rivalry in Connacht is between  Ros and Mayo. It used to be Mayo and Galway in the first half of the last Century but Galway have been in a different zone since mid 1950s.

Since 1951( our last All Ireland) Galway have won 28 Connacht Championships and 6 All Irelands
Since 1951 ( our last All Ireland) Mayo have won 14 Connacht Championships and 0 All Irelands.
Since 1951 ( our last All Ireland) Roscommon have one 12 Connacht Championships and 0 All Irelands.

Looking at those stats it looks like Mayo and Ros are like 2 bald lads fighting over a comb. Stats may not tell the full story but they reveal a lot and people can draw their own conclusions. Bearing in mind Galway are half hurling( less football clubs than Mayo and only a fraction of Dublin or Kerry) and the City was mostly disinterested. Mayo ( the biggest football county in the province) have underachieved spectacularly. Why? One thing i convinced of is that much of Galway s dominance was down to Mayo s ineptitude. Galway won 3 AI s in a row 64-66 and the popular story was that Mayo were second best in country at the time. We had the talent to push them to the limit but they prevailed. When we did eventually beat them a talented Mayo side could go no further. Familiar?

So this Roscommon game has huge significance. Did nt they ever? A defeat to Galway can be explained away. They beat us in Castlebar 50% of the time anyway down the years and hardly ever lose to us at home - because basically we re soft and an easy touch for them. But how would we spin a defeat to a green Ros team in McHale Park 2009?

  I m sure management last year were aware with 2 home games that a Connacht win was a requirement. Now we have to win in Salthill this year if we  get to the final. If we lose either of those 2 matches(initially Ros/Leitrim at home)  it will have been a bleak 3 years and more importantly than stats the younger players will be badly damaged by it all.  Look at the stats again. We can talk all we want on here about progress and rebuilding but players see it differently. They expect to win and to lose to same opposition 3 years in a row .........I m sure some people will be able to explain it all away - not enough quality players etc, etc. Fair enough but it s becoming a bit lame if you look at it long term.

I ve seen a lot of Mayo/ Galway Championship matches and I ve drawn a few conclusions. Biased I accept but it was some consolation that Lar was around the same ballpark as well in a post some time ago..
  * Takes a very good Mayo team to beat an ordinary Galway team.
  * If they re even enough Galway win - 98 and take your pick from several other years, including last year.
  * Even if Mayo dominate possession like 95 Galway can win comfortably.
  * When Mayo are vastly superior like 89 we can only draw in Tuam but win comfortably in Castlebar.
  * When Galway are much better they fillet us. Tuam 82. Sadly the following week the Western People left the team photo space  blank from shame.  That was nt particularly nice.

I think we should take into consideration the history of the whole thing before we try to predict the summer. The theme has been pretty consistent and it does nt stack up too nicely for us at all.