Mayo Football and Hurling - Discussion pages

[criostlinn]

"the man who bought back an Kevin O Neill in the twilight stages of his career and made him captain of the Mayo team.

A bold and triumphant move that was a direct gesture to the previous management.
It was welcomed by everyone after years of O Neill being overlooked, and it seen as a new dawn in Mayo footbal"


Was Kevin O Neill not brought back by Micky Moran.

[AbbeySider]

"the man who bought back an Kevin O Neill in the twilight stages of his career and made him captain of the Mayo team.

A bold and triumphant move that was a direct gesture to the previous management.
It was welcomed by everyone after years of O Neill being overlooked, and it seen as a new dawn in Mayo footbal"


Was Kevin O Neill not brought back by Micky Moran.

I reseeded that one and removed the post (it was a bit rantish anyway    ). Got my facts badly wrong. Forgot Moran brought back O Neill 

[moysider]

 I must admit I could never understand his decision to appoint O Neill captain or drop MacDonald from his plans. Now anybody who ever read my posts will know I never regarded Johnno as a Messiah. I dont believe in Messiahs in football or anything else. And I did nt believe in Johnno but I hope he proves me wrong. No agenda except I dont believe ( contrary to popular opinion I ll admit) that he s a good coach. I wont argue too much with his management abilities except that he s probably old school and keeps players at arm s length.
Dropping MacDonald was perhaps his way of making a break with the recent past and a statement that he was going to create a team of his own. Thing is he has put no stamp of his own on the team. There is no distinctive style.  Then there never was with Johnno teams. In the old days he inherited O Neill's team and O Neill's stamp was all over that team until 1990. When the old guard faltered Johnno did not rejuvenate them. In Galway he inherited older experienced players like DePaor, Fahy, Finnegan, Walsh who combined with the superiorly talented Joyce, Donnellan, Savage, Meehan and Clancy to win 2 AIs. Maybe an underachievement for that squad and they did it off the cuff with their ability rather than any great coaching input. When the Northern Revolution and Kerry raised the bar in 2002/2003 Johnno s team could not respond. They were still good enough to beat Mayo most years playing their old game ( and lets face it we made it easy for them) but ambitious teams in Croke Park were beyond them. As they will this Mayo team. As will Liam Sammon ( a top coach)'s Galway as well.
  Worringly, for him, Johnno has not put any stamp on this team either. All the established players played better for previous managers - and looked happier too. Players he has put his trust in have not been a success. Think Austin, Andy, Kilcoyne, Conroy, Boyle, Kilcullens, Devenney, Cuniffe. Now some were played out of position and I would attach no blame to the player but their positioning were his judgement and in too many cases it did nt work. Players he overlooked and had to turn back to last year like Aidan H and Nallen saved the team some face.
Some contributers on here insist Johnno was right to jettison Mac cause everything was going through him/ slowing things down, blah blah and blah. Fair enough there may be some merit in that. Until you have a look. Did Johnno introduce a new dynamic style? Er..... no. We got Austin O Malley behind 2 lads inside who were reluctant to make runs because the outfield players had nt the inclination or ability to kick long accurate ball in, and our best attacking player was usually playing corner back.
The Barry Moran as ff looked like a success for Johnno. In fact the only success he s had and he left that behind to accomodate a player in a role that would have been a dream role for the player he so callously dismisssed. It does nt make sense.
  Johnno must now hopes the players can rescue the show( if it was a play in the local hall it would have been boooed off stage and shut down first night) but I think its a fairly forlorn hope. Too many of them remember when playing for Mayo was exciting and fun. Hell, I remember when following Mayo was exciting and fun. The last 2 years have been as bad as I ve seen. And I remember the 70s and Tuam '82. Ouch. Maughan brought in lads like Madden, Connelley and Horan from obscurity and they went to the cusp of greatness. M and M got great response from everybody and the players obviously loved them. Likes of Harte, McGarrity, Brady, Dillon were inspired. Crucially it was obvious M and M enjoyed working with this group of players as well.
Johnno on the other hand does nt even seem to like or trust players. It all seems that its a personal crusade for him and players have to be tolerated rather than embraced. This I believe is the key to the Mac affair. Rather than embrace the player's abilities he focused on negatives and decided it was more expedient to get rid of him. Being a man of considerable ego he probably did not expect the public backlash, believing the public loved him more.
Right now he needs some players to love him and be inspired by his management skills and regain some old form. Or some new lads to step up and rescue his second coming. Maybe likes of Cafferkey, Regan will turn things around. Who knows maybe the last two years were part of a worthy process. I hope so.

[Lar Naparka]

 Now, now, lads, I will not have a single bad word said about the Anointed One.
(Possibly a cupla dozen okay but just a single one....? No way, Jose!)
O'Neill was elected by a players' vote. I recall reading this in the Mayo News.

Anyway, I have made, and intend to keep, my New Year's Resolution.
I sincerely wish Johnno and the lads the very best of luck; it's a no-brainer that we all do the same, I suppose.
Furthermore, I hope he proves me teetotally wrong and produces a team with some shape and purpose and even a basic idea of what they are supposed to be doing on the field in the first place.
If he can field a team that is capable of playing to the best of its ability, I will honestly accept the outcome.
An All Ireland would be grand but I'd settle for the best he can coax out of the side, whatever that may be.
So, if you will excuse me, I'm off to locate my crash helmet; I'm worried I may get hit by a flying pig before long.

[stephenite]

It's not healthy to be going over the McDonald saga again.

The only irrefutable truth on this thread

[Davitt Man]

Mayo drew with Cork in a challenge match last Saturday in Kilmallock (2-12 to 1-15) with goals from Alan Dillon and Mikey Sweeney. Ger Cafferkey is understood to have impressed again at full-back while Barry Moran was posted at full-forward against a strong Cork selection.
Pat Kelly, whose transfer back to Kilmaine from All-Ireland club champions St Vincent's was rubber-stamped last week, also lined out in the half-back line and should get another run-out next Sunday.

[Zulu]

I must admit I could never understand his decision to appoint O Neill captain or drop MacDonald from his plans. Now anybody who ever read my posts will know I never regarded Johnno as a Messiah. I dont believe in Messiahs in football or anything else. And I did nt believe in Johnno but I hope he proves me wrong. No agenda except I dont believe ( contrary to popular opinion I ll admit) that he s a good coach. I wont argue too much with his management abilities except that he s probably old school and keeps players at arm s length.
Dropping MacDonald was perhaps his way of making a break with the recent past and a statement that he was going to create a team of his own. Thing is he has put no stamp of his own on the team. There is no distinctive style.  Then there never was with Johnno teams. In the old days he inherited O Neill's team and O Neill's stamp was all over that team until 1990. When the old guard faltered Johnno did not rejuvenate them. In Galway he inherited older experienced players like DePaor, Fahy, Finnegan, Walsh who combined with the superiorly talented Joyce, Donnellan, Savage, Meehan and Clancy to win 2 AIs. Maybe an underachievement for that squad and they did it off the cuff with their ability rather than any great coaching input. When the Northern Revolution and Kerry raised the bar in 2002/2003 Johnno s team could not respond. They were still good enough to beat Mayo most years playing their old game ( and lets face it we made it easy for them) but ambitious teams in Croke Park were beyond them. As they will this Mayo team. As will Liam Sammon ( a top coach)'s Galway as well.
  Worringly, for him, Johnno has not put any stamp on this team either. All the established players played better for previous managers - and looked happier too. Players he has put his trust in have not been a success. Think Austin, Andy, Kilcoyne, Conroy, Boyle, Kilcullens, Devenney, Cuniffe. Now some were played out of position and I would attach no blame to the player but their positioning were his judgement and in too many cases it did nt work. Players he overlooked and had to turn back to last year like Aidan H and Nallen saved the team some face.
Some contributers on here insist Johnno was right to jettison Mac cause everything was going through him/ slowing things down, blah blah and blah. Fair enough there may be some merit in that. Until you have a look. Did Johnno introduce a new dynamic style? Er..... no. We got Austin O Malley behind 2 lads inside who were reluctant to make runs because the outfield players had nt the inclination or ability to kick long accurate ball in, and our best attacking player was usually playing corner back.
The Barry Moran as ff looked like a success for Johnno. In fact the only success he s had and he left that behind to accomodate a player in a role that would have been a dream role for the player he so callously dismisssed. It does nt make sense.
  Johnno must now hopes the players can rescue the show( if it was a play in the local hall it would have been boooed off stage and shut down first night) but I think its a fairly forlorn hope. Too many of them remember when playing for Mayo was exciting and fun. Hell, I remember when following Mayo was exciting and fun. The last 2 years have been as bad as I ve seen. And I remember the 70s and Tuam '82. Ouch. Maughan brought in lads like Madden, Connelley and Horan from obscurity and they went to the cusp of greatness. M and M got great response from everybody and the players obviously loved them. Likes of Harte, McGarrity, Brady, Dillon were inspired. Crucially it was obvious M and M enjoyed working with this group of players as well.
Johnno on the other hand does nt even seem to like or trust players. It all seems that its a personal crusade for him and players have to be tolerated rather than embraced. This I believe is the key to the Mac affair. Rather than embrace the player's abilities he focused on negatives and decided it was more expedient to get rid of him. Being a man of considerable ego he probably did not expect the public backlash, believing the public loved him more.
Right now he needs some players to love him and be inspired by his management skills and regain some old form. Or some new lads to step up and rescue his second coming. Maybe likes of Cafferkey, Regan will turn things around. Who knows maybe the last two years were part of a worthy process. I hope so.

With respect Moysider, and maybe I'm doing you a great dis-service but you appear to be passing off your opinion on what players felt about M&M, Maughan and JOM as fact without a shred of evidence. I must say that the Mayo posters on this board are generally, knowledgeable, reasonable and intelligent posters but ye seem to short circuit when it comes to talking about Mayo. Both Maughan and M&M got a load of abuse on here when in charge but to read Moysiders post you'd think they were geniuses, likewise JOM was the saviour for most Mayo people but once he got the job it wasn't long before the knives were out.

The last two AI's ye reached ye got hammered in, yet being piped by Galway and Tyrone last year seems to mean nothing to ye. To me that shows some progress on the previous year, last year JOM lost Howley at center back through injury after it looked like he was making the position his own and he lost T. Mortimer while the Connacht final was still in the melting pot and as a county ye lost Hanley before he even started. Yet JOM brought ye within a kick of a ball of Tyrone, that is a pretty impressive managerial performance in my book. I mean yer even giving out about him for down playing expectations ( a very sessible thing to do, especially since ye don't have the players to win an AI at the moment) yet when Brian Coady does the same he is a genius, keeping things on an even keel, not letting fellas get ahead of themselves. etc.

Unfortunately this is the type of analysis most supporters indulge in, if you're winning nothing is wrong and if your losing nothing is right. I often laugh when I hear pundits praise one coach and team for getting everything right while berating the other coach and team for not doing this, that or the other and this after a game in which only 1 or 2 points separated the two teams. You need to look much deeper and be realistic about you abilities and indeed the time it takes for a coach to change things around.

Anyway despite the pessimism displayed here I think ye are going in the right direction and I expect ye will do quite well this year, however that doesn't mean I think Mayo will win any silverware.

[rosnarun]

Give us a break ZULU
on one hand

The last two AI's ye reached ye got hammered in, yet being piped by Galway and Tyrone last year seems to mean nothing to ye.

but then on the other

Yet JOM brought ye within a kick of a ball of Tyrone, that is a pretty impressive managerial performance in my book.

with that kind of of clear headed thinking  im not suprised you are a big JOM fan or do you work as a spin doctor where you make the fact fit your argument or just a WUM

[stephenite]

There were quite a few senior players that felt that Mickey Moran and John Morrison were complete jokes, as a management team they were often left out of post team meetings that took place away from the training ground - this was flagged to you before Moysider - the players didn't obviously love them (some of them may well have) but they were just about tolerated by others

[Zulu]

You must be a moron if you think I'm a WUM or is it just that you think anyone who disagrees with you can't be giving an honest opinion based on the evidence that is available to them? And what is the point of the two quotes you use? In the first one I suggest that pushing Galway and in particular Tyrone very close despite losing Howley and Mortimer for the Tyrone game should warrant some degree of satisfaction amongst Mayo supporters given what has happened in the previous 3 or 4 years. And in the second quote I support that statement by suggesting that the performance against Tyrone was quite impressive give Mayo injuries and Tyrones subsequent achievements. Now by all means disagree with those views if you like but they are far from contradictory, they are in fact saying more or less the same thing.

[moysider]

Just a couple of points Zulu in relation to my previous post and some of your criticism ( which I welcome) of it.

First of all I m not representing anybody except myself and I can say with certainty that I never abused either Maughan or MandM. In fact I was dismayed by the treatment of MandM and I still believe we lost very good coaches. Equally I was not impressed with the appointment of Johnno. When most supporters were greeting him with open arms I must say I was very apprehensive for reasons that I ve outlined previously. Events of the last 2 years do not surprise me and I dont expect much improvement any time soon but I d love to be proven wrong.
It is my opinion at the end of the day but I know several of the players who have played in the 90s and 00s for Maughan, MandM and Johnno. Obviously I can t say much more about that. I don t want to compromise their or my own identity. Johnno is also someone I know for some time also and I would have great time for him and what he has achieved in the game. But I think the game has moved on and his style of management is no longer as vital as it used to be and coaching I never felt to be his strong point. And as others have pointed out,Mayo first and foremost need a coach because Mayo teams by their nature lack structure. Thats it, no axe to grind, no hidden agenda.
You have Zulu on occasion pointed that we dont have the players to win an All Ireland. Now I try to avoid all Ireland talk myself and I m used to Mayo football being treated as Cinderella and condescended to for as long as I can remember. Mostly that was justified. At the moment Johnno has a pick on a par with any manager down the years. Maybe better as modern players in the county are more focused and ambitious.Our underage teams are frequently in the later stages of the Championship each year and thats a fair reflection of quality. I doubt many counties have as many players on Sigerson teams as us. Before we get revisionistic about this let me just point out that the 96/97 team would have been laughed out of court in Jan 96 as they struggled against 3rd division opposition. 95 was one of the lowest ebbs in our recent history yet Maughan added a couple of lads and turned a bunch of underachievers into a serious team immediately. He may have come up short in the end but with Maughan we often beat Galway and sometimes beat likes of Tyrone and Kerry. You however seem to think losing to Galway and Tyrone narrowly was a kind of progress 08. The reality was both Galway and Tyrone played within themselves and won comfortably though narrowly. We never looked like getting the equaliser against Tyrone even though we had 3 mins to do so. Most teams would have managed it but we were easily contained. Donegal easily strolled the end game in league final 2007 as well. There s a recurring theme here that does not bode well for the future.  When you consider that Galway beat us in Castlebar but we hardly ever manage to win against them away( it took a Maughan team to manage that) you may begin to understand some of our despair. Its not about AIs. Its about going as far in the Champioship as possible each year. You cant build a team by losing matches in McHale Park in July. Rebuilding is spin - another way of saying I m threading water and we re muck.  Talk of rebuiding cuts little ice when we lose to Galway in McHale park. Especially when you know that there was a team available that probably would have won but management persued whims. This Summer they will do a 3 in 3 years on us unless Ros puts us out of our misery first.
I know there was/is a belief out there that if Johnno got to a final he would get us over the line. He may have added to this himself with that quote of his or he may have been quoted out of context. Some people believe he may even have won 04 and 06. Now I must say I always found the notion laughable because I never saw the evidence of the tactical nous he would have needed to take on that Kerry team. As regards him building a team that might win one in a few years time. He s never built a team before so its a leap of faith. His efforts over the last 2 years have been poor. Again many of us pointed out these flaws before things went pear-shape and not with the benefit of hindsight. And even if he did get to a final would only be a 50/50 at best.
Johnno is also getting credit for dumbing down expectation. His results have done that anyway. But just to make sure he lays the gloom on with a trowel. If you paid any heed to him you d be afraid to go watch Derry on Sunday. Now I  only remember seeing Mayo lose 2 league matches in last 30 years or more in Ballina and I d have seen them all. Both were to the Great Kerry team. If we lose this game we may as well burn the old town as there is no surer league points than Ballina.
  We dont have much sweetness and light in Mayo so I cannot understand how removing peoples enthusiasm for football is a positive thing. The depression hit us 2 years earlier than rest of the country - Sept 06 to be precise. Instead of football being a bit of comfort its become a bit of a forbidden fruit - strictly not to be enjoyed. The weather is cuck, old fellas cant go to the pub anymore because they re easier to catch than young fellas driving Civics. Surely hype is a small price to pay for some success and someone of Johnno s experience could manage that without throwing cold water on expectations even when there is bugger all interest there. Mayo people need their madness for football. We dont have Munster rugby or a top hurling team.
  Any way I see James Horan had some similar views in today s ' western'. Where you from yourself Zulu?  Must say appreciate your interest in Mayo football.

[Zulu]

First off may I commend you on a fine post Moysider and I'm not being coy here but I haven't ever posted the county I'm from in all my time here so if you'll indulge me I'll continue to do so. Suffice to say I have Munster and a major hurling team to support but football's my drug so the rugby doesn't do much for me and our hurling history is similar to Mayo's football one, so that narrows my home county down to one of 3 or 4. 

Anyway, while I may come across as a JOM fan (it clearly does to some) I'm not really, rather I feel most posters are being too harsh. All a coach/manager can do is get the best out of what is available to him and when you are in the position Mayo are in, i.e. the group of 8 - 10 behind Tyrone and Kerry, then success or failure can rest on little things, many of which are outside the managers control. The reality is that Mayo could beat anyone of that  8-10 teams and if they avoided Kerry and Tyrone I think they could win the AI but they could also just as easily get beaten by any of those teams and would almost definitely get beaten by Tyrone or Kerry./ For example if Mayo and Wexford swapped draws last year Jason Ryan wouldn't be the bell of the ball and Mayo could have got to a AI semi final and maybe rattled Tyrone more than Wexford did. If that had happened would JOM be getting this amount of criticism? Unfortunately ye met Tyrone early and the year ended without anything to hang yer hat on.

IMO if Mayo get a decent draw in the qualifiers then ye could do very well this year but Mayo fans have to be patient and whether it is JOM or somebody else they have to get more than a year or two before the knives come out.

[moysider]

There were quite a few senior players that felt that Mickey Moran and John Morrison were complete jokes, as a management team they were often left out of post team meetings that took place away from the training ground - this was flagged to you before Moysider - the players didn't obviously love them (some of them may well have) but they were just about tolerated by others

Yeah I would be aware of that Stephenite. But if they were jokers they did nt do too badly and crucially the players played for them. Maybe the management had method in their approach. Were they a joke or just different and maybe they just did nt want to indulge senior players in decision making. Lets face it senior players came up with the 'Warm up into the Hill routine'. Great crack and all s well that ends well but if you were manager would you be happy with that kind of thing? So maybe management were trying to keep players focused on playing.

 That type of thing would never happen under Johnno. So maybe those lads who thought MandM abit of a joke felt motivated at the same time by their enthusiasm to pull off one the great stunts in Croke Park.

 For every player that respects a manager there ll be another that dislikes them. You get the same mixed opinion about doctors, teachers, vets, plumbers or dare I say it politicians. And of course players are never to blame themselves. Its always somebody else s fault. You know the old mantra that managers use. ' There s no I in TEAM'. But every shrewd manager knows that there are 15 I s in any decent team. And another 15 bitching about not being picked. If they did nt have ego s and think they were the best they d never have got to that level. A good manager can get these individuals to play as a team but they wont love each other or him. I ve heard the same divided opinion obout Mayo managers as far back as O Neill, Johnno in U21 days, successive minor managers and various club bosses. I m hearing stuff all the time from local clubs to the county boys but I would nt bother anybody with most of it. It goes with the territory. I prefer to observe how a team behaves to gauge health of a team. Performance naturally, but things like shape, discipline( Kerry obviously in trouble there last year indicating the manager was not really in charge) player confidence, body language etc. The most positive aspect of Mayo recently is discipline but that could be interpeted as lack of enthusiasm/aggression. Under MandM I thought we ticked more boxes.

[moysider]

There were quite a few senior players that felt that Mickey Moran and John Morrison were complete jokes, as a management team they were often left out of post team meetings that took place away from the training ground - this was flagged to you before Moysider - the players didn't obviously love them (some of them may well have) but they were just about tolerated by others

Watchin the Australian Open Stephenite. I m afraid Dementieva is keepin me up late. Thats one hell of a heathwave in Melbourne. Players hardly able to breathe. There s hardly a pitch playable over here. I would nt be in a hurry back if I were you.

[stephenite]

I would nt be in a hurry back if I were you.

Might be my only chance of a start with the Stephenites this year from what I'm hearing