Mayo Football and Hurling - Discussion pages

[RedandGreenSniper]

We still have
no fullback, no center back or corner back(s),
very weak midfield,
not many scoring forwards, maybe 2.

Would that be the general opinion of Mayo lads on this board?

Twould be close enough to the consensus. No full-back - correct. No centre back - probably correct, Trevor Howley wasn't able to hold it down last year due to injury. One good corner back coming through in Kevin McLoughlin but this would be his first year with the seniors. Other corner-back a problem. Very weak midfield? I'd have to disagree. Parsons had a great debut year and while McGarrity wasn't at his best, there's more in him. Only scoring forwards are Conor Mort and Dillon. Maybe Andy Moran if he ups it a bit. As JOM starts his third year it is still very much a work in progress. We should be a lot further down the line than we are. I don't know have we progressed at all but I'll see what happens this year before deciding

[Zulu]

Can I ask another question so, if most lads admit there isn't a full back, an outstanding, proven centre back and only 2 scoring forwards (neither of which are great as scoring forwards IMO) then why are so many of you highly critical of JOM? You talk of a lack of progression but how can you progress if you don't have the players?

[Lar Naparka]

Can I ask another question so, if most lads admit there isn't a full back, an outstanding, proven centre back and only 2 scoring forwards (neither of which are great as scoring forwards IMO) then why are so many of you highly critical of JOM? You talk of a lack of progression but how can you progress if you don't have the players?

The problem is that Johnno appears to have lost the deftness of touch that he once had. Since taking over, he has continually chopped and changed his team about without giving anyone a chance to settle down and develop some degree of understanding with others around him.
The game against Galway in Salthill last year was a case in point: not a single line of the team had played as a unit before this game. It certainly showed on the day as Galway left us at sixes and sevens from the throw-in. Peter Ford, the Galway manager, outmanoeuvred O'Mahony without bother and the changes needed, that were obvious to all, bar O'Mahony, only took place when the cause was lost.
This year has been as bad as the previous one where the need to make decisive sideline changes is concerned.  The game against Galway followed the same pattern more or less, as the previous one and the herrin' chokers won another game by default. Our championship record over the last two years has seen us beat Cavan and Sligo and after that you would be struggling to find positives.
Maybe we lack a natural full back or a centre half, but we won't get either unless it comes about by pure chance. The business of fiddling with players' positions goes on steadily and with no obvious sign of success. Billy Joe, Jimmy Kilcullen and Vincent Conroy have all been given extended runs at full back and none of them proved to be a success. Others have been tried there also. 
Now; to my simple way of thinking, it would be far better to settle on an individual and make a full back out of him rather than fluting about hoping for divine inspiration. Every time you make a change at full back or any other crucial position, you have to consider the knock on effect on others around it.
As I write this, our beloved manager seems to have no clearer idea as to what his preferred started fifteen would be if he could field it. And that's after two years of team building and development. I accept that he lacks natural candidates for a number of positions but what is he going to do about this?
Wouldn't he be far better off if he were to take his closest prospect and shoe him into a given position, say, fullback and keep him there until someone better comes along? At least that would allow him to gain a clearer understanding of who would be needed in the corners to make a cohesive unit. Same goes for every central position right down the field.
At this stage, Billy Joe must have been tried in every position bar goal and still can't nail a permanent position down. Andy Moran and Trevor Mortimer are others who could lose their amateur status as Travellers if he keeps shifting them about. For me, it's not O'Mahony's fault that he doesn't have readymade solutions to the positional problems we know of; it's the way he has gone about minimising the shortcomings that concerns me.
I mean, is there a single manager in the land who honestly feels he has each position filled with natural players of the highest quality. Where most others seem to accept their shortcomings and try to work things out to best effect, Johnno keeps juggling his team, hoping things will eventually gel together.
I'd feel that after two years, he is no nearer getting his preferred set up than when he started out.
All of this is bad enough without mentioning the McDonald episode. While I fully accept his right as manager to pick whoever he chooses, the manner in which he handled matters here left a lot to be desired. He left himself open to ongoing hassle and controversy that a wiser man would have foreseen and avoided.
All in all, I don't see matters improving dramatically this year either. I sincerely hope for the best but am expecting a good deal less than that.

[mannix]

LAR NA PARKA,
you hit the nail smack bang on the head. JOM is definetly losing the touch, I reckon he has far too much other stuff in his head to be fully focussed and if you are not 100% focussed  the likes of mickey harte and co will clean you out very fast.

[Farrandeelin]

Larnaparka usually always hits the nail smack bang on the head. I don't know how anyone thinks we will be in the hunt come September. We are in the habit of (since O'Mahony took over) losing tight games. And in 07 you could say getting trounced! Maybe O'Mahony has something up his sleeve but I for one can't see it. The tight games were both last year's defeats to Galway and Tyrone and the 07 league final to Donegal as well. We have to 'get tough when the tough get going' under O'Mahony and that would be another crucial thing that would need to be addressed imo. Maybe the back-room management could be seen to be doing something. Maybe too much pressure is on O'Mahony's shoulders. What are Tommy Lyons and Martin Carney and Kieran Gallagher actually doing? Are they taking the training sessions when O'Mahony is in Dáil Éireann. Maybe Johnno needs to spend more time on the training field instead of travelling to Dublin. I'm sure he knows that he needs to deliver the big prize or his seat will be under threat...

[rosnarun]

For me, it's not O'Mahony's fault that he doesn't have readymade solutions to the positional problems we know of; it's the way he has gone about minimising the shortcomings that concerns me.

very few manager have the luxury of ready made solution if they had anyone could do the job. exceptions being pat o shea in kerry and JOM himself in galway.
Mayos current problem is not a lack of talent but a coherent intelligent plan to get the most out of what we have. when a whole team is at 6's and 7's of course the centre back and full back are going to under pressure but that dont mean they are not up to the job . its a team game and a team can only funtion best when they are singing off the same hymnsheet . but JOM doesn't seem to have one .

[AbbeySider]

The problem is that Johnno appears to have lost the deftness of touch that he once had.

Im not sure if he ever had much of a touch. I reckon if Nell McCafferty managed Galway the years they won all-Irelands she would have won too.
How could you lose with the forwards Galway had and the relatively easy route. Had he ever the magic touch? Granted, his greatest achievement was winning a Connaught title with Leitrim. Since then he has not been this magician people make him out to be. IMO

The game against Galway in Salthill last year was a case in point: not a single line of the team had played as a unit before this game. It certainly showed on the day as Galway left us at sixes and sevens from the throw-in. Peter Ford, the Galway manager, outmanoeuvred O'Mahony without bother and the changes needed, that were obvious to all, bar O'Mahony, only took place when the cause was lost.

Regarding the game in Salthill; it was understood (by me anyway) that O Mahoney was giving the older players another chance to prove themselves after their fantastic display against Dublin and subsequent abismal display against Kerry in the final of 06. It would have been wrong in my book to do a cull and clear out the older players after all they had given, especially in his first year. And besides the mental damage of the final in 06 was fairly evident so that loss was not all JOMs fault.

This year has been as bad as the previous one where the need to make decisive sideline changes is concerned. The game against Galway followed the same pattern more or less, as the previous one and the herrin' chokers won another game by default.

I wouldnt agree, JOM seemed to go for for youth over experience this year against Galway. And that backfired also.

Maybe we lack a natural full back or a centre half, but we won't get either unless it comes about by pure chance.

There is a few potential young lads in the county that will make fantastic fullbacks if they stick at it.
Donal Vaughan from Ballinrobe. Kevin Keane from Westport and maybe Michael Nestor from Ballintubber all have the potential.

Isnt it ironic that in the past we never had to worry about backs but in recent years we have run short of them?

The business of fiddling with players' positions goes on steadily and with no obvious sign of success. Billy Joe, Jimmy Kilcullen and Vincent Conroy have all been given extended runs at full back and none of them proved to be a success. Others have been tried there also.

Now; to my simple way of thinking, it would be far better to settle on an individual and make a full back out of him rather than fluting about hoping for divine inspiration. Every time you make a change at full back or any other crucial position, you have to consider the knock on effect on others around it.

hmm I would be weary of simply settling on any fullback or trying to make someone into a full back.
A full back is the keystone to any defence and team. Reading the game, being able to talk to players around you and organise the defence, and being in the right place at the right time as well as know when to mark your man or when to hold the space are not things that can be thought. The simple fact remains that we dont have any natural fullbacks, of age and confidence and that wants to play for the county at the minute. In a county with almost 50 clubs there has to be a few guys out there that will make it, but for now patience is needed.

As I write this, our beloved manager seems to have no clearer idea as to what his preferred started fifteen would be if he could field it. And that's after two years of team building and development. I accept that he lacks natural candidates for a number of positions but what is he going to do about this?

Do any of us have a clear idea of a starting 15? I dont 

Wouldn't he be far better off if he were to take his closest prospect and shoe him into a given position, say, fullback and keep him there until someone better comes along? At least that would allow him to gain a clearer understanding of who would be needed in the corners to make a cohesive unit. Same goes for every central position right down the field.

Did he not try that with Conroy against Galway? He was tried a few times. It blew up in our faces.

At this stage, Billy Joe must have been tried in every position bar goal and still can't nail a permanent position down. Andy Moran and Trevor Mortimer are others who could lose their amateur status as Travellers if he keeps shifting them about.

True, I had a conversation one time and concluded that Billy Joe is the only Mayo player that has played in every central position for Mayo.
Fullback, Center Back, Midfield, Center Forward, Full Forward. Jack of all trades or master of none?
Personally I think he is a good utility player that will do a job for you anywhere. It takes all sorts I guess.

Andy is a wing forward and looks frustrated when inside. Trevour is a wing man too, wing back or forward.
We just dont seem to have any real ball winners inside either at the minute for Mort to feed off.

For me, it's not O'Mahony's fault that he doesn't have readymade solutions to the positional problems we know of; it's the way he has gone about minimising the shortcomings that concerns me.
I mean, is there a single manager in the land who honestly feels he has each position filled with natural players of the highest quality. Where most others seem to accept their shortcomings and try to work things out to best effect, Johnno keeps juggling his team, hoping things will eventually gel together.
I'd feel that after two years, he is no nearer getting his preferred set up than when he started out.

I hear your lament Lar but he has tried things.
Sticking with the older guys didnt work last year.
Trying the younger guys definitely didnt work this year.

It all leads back to not having enough quality players and enough players in natural positions;
at the moment at least, but in a few years we will be making serious challenges again.

[RedandGreenSniper]

As I write this, our beloved manager seems to have no clearer idea as to what his preferred started fifteen would be if he could field it. And that's after two years of team building and development. I accept that he lacks natural candidates for a number of positions but what is he going to do about this?

Do any of us have a clear idea of a starting 15? I dont 

Okay, lets see how diverse opinion is here. We'll each pick a starting team we'd like to see for the first game of the league and see how similiar or otherwise our selections are. Leaving aside the team you think will play in championship (impossible to say how new players might play when they step up etc) but lets just see who we think should be given a go and in what positions.

Here's my tuppence worth

David Clarke

Kevin McLoughlin  Ger Cafferkey  Donal Vaughan

David Heaney  Trevor Howley  Peadar Gardiner

Ronan McGarrity Tom Parsons

Billy Joe Padden  Trevor Mortimer  Andy Moran

Conor Mortimer  Aidan O'Shea  Alan Dillon

I'll explain my thinking line by line. Clarke has been excellent over the past couple of years. Robert Hennelly is the only one close to him yet but he's probably still too young.

The full-back line is a bit inexperienced so someone like Aidan Higgins might be used as a transitional player. But I'd like to see all three given their head. Kevin McLoughlin is the best prospect imo. Donal Vaughan needs to bulk up a bit but also a serious prospect. Maybe more suited to the half-back line but we've options aplenty there, he has experience in the full-back line so see how he stands up. JOM musn't rate Ger Cafferkey if he didn't put him on the panel this year but I reckon he deserves a good run at full-back after a very good U-21 season last year. Naturally Kevin Keane is another man worth a go here.

Trevor Howley did well at chb in the league last year before injury intervened. I think he's still ahead of Heaney, Tom Cunniffe and anyone else at this moment in time and deserves another shot at it. Gardiner came back with some great form last year, particularly against Dooher when he was asked to do a job that curtailed his attacking runs and he proved he's well capable of defending. Heaney is still good enough to hold down a place imo (saw no matches live in 08) but I think it has to be wing-back or nothing. Chris Barrett is also another great option here if he recovers sufficiently from injury. Naturally Keith Higgins isn't around yet but it'd be great for him to come back from Australia with issues regarding the full-back line sorted and the luxury to play him at half-back or even wing-forward??

McGarrity needs to up it from last year or else it will be him, and not the younger Parsons, who will become the expendeable midfielder. Players like Pat Harte, Seamus O'Shea and even perhaps Brian Gallagher or Jason Gibbons if they show good form at U-21 could be waiting in the wings.

The half-forward line becomes the line I'm least sure about but I still reckon there's a place for all three on the team. Trevor Mortimer certainly is a guy Mayo need to have. His abrasive play is something we lack as a county. I think his direct style can cause problems for a lot of centre-half backs. Andy Moran didn't do the business inside last year but I reckon the winter break might do him the world of good and he can be an effective ball carrier and scoring wing-forward IF he learns when to give the ball and when to hold it. Billy Joe, I've said before, is one of our most undervalued players and I think wing-forward is the best place for him, dropping deep, picking up loose balls and playing intelligent balls inside. Pat Harte could easily take Andy Moran's place. He is definitely the more talented of the two, I just think you'll always get a certain level of performance from Andy, Harte can very hot and very cold. If Harte did come in it would be another good option for long, direct ball. Overall I think that's a fairly strong and robust ball winning half-forward line and while Dillon would also bring a bit of class there, I feel we need him inside.

Which brings me onto the full-forward line. Mortimer annoys me a lot of the time and I certainly reckon we can get more from him. But he is the best we have and he has struggled because of the lack of a big man to feed off and the lack of another quality scoring forward. That's why I'm going with O'Shea and Dillon. Granted its one thing being a big minor and another being a big senior but I reckon O'Shea is worth the punt. An excellent ball winner, savagely strong and a good footballing brain, he could be the ideal senior inter-county full-forward. And I'm convinced we need a big, target man full-forward. Corner-forward isn't Dillon's best position but no more than the arguments about our full-back line, we have too many lads who will do a job in the half-forward line and not enough white collar inside men. I think Dillon can do a more than adequate job inside here. He's very good in tight situations, has two good feet and hands and is not as slow as some people think. Also he could drop deep if the need arose.

Anyway that's just my thoughts on a boring December day with no football on the horizon. I've never been more reserved about a Mayo season but I'm still looking forward to it immensely! Go figure!

[mannix]

thats some bit of analysis there, correct about c mort too, he cannot be the target man expected to carry the scoring by himself. I also reckon macdonald is still a great man to have to place close to goal and stay there.

[Lar Naparka]

Good post, Abbeysider; I certainly don't disagree with anything you have stated; any difference between us seems to be a matter of perspective rather than of substance.
One place where we both sing from the hymn sheet is here:

Do any of us have a clear idea of a starting 15? I dont

I suggest John O'Mahony doesn't either.
After he took over the reins, Mayo made it through to the league final. They lost that game but weren't disgraced by an in-form Donegal side. Donegal, if any of you care to remember, were getting rave reviews at the time; they were being widely tipped as a good bet for September. Injury problems left O'Mahony short of his preferred first fifteen but the side acquitted itself well. No sign of battle trauma or lack of appetite for the game were evident.
Our first game, against Galway in Salthill, loomed up ahead.  Optimism was high; Mayo were strongly tipped; nobody, but nobody mentioned any sign of mental tiredness amongst the older players.
When the game began, Peter Ford moved his wing forwards up into the corners and the Mayo half backs got in their own way. The Mayo defensive formation crumbled – there is no other way to describe it. By the time O'Mahony reacted, the game was out of sight.
In the second half, the Mayo veterans tore into the opposition but were unable to overcome the scores Galway racked up in the flying start they enjoyed. Can any Mayo fan who reads this, tell me of one "vet" who showed the white feather as they sought to overcome the deficit?
I contend that the excuse that the players hadn't the bottle to compete doesn't measure up to the facts. Maybe the General Election looming up might have taken O'Mahony's eye off the ball but the players gave their best – pity the same can't be side about the tulips on the sideline.
The Galway game this season followed the same broad pattern, in my humble opinion. Galway got off to a flying start and thereafter Mayo had to struggle uphill all the way. To O'Mahony's credit, he did organise the defense more efficiently this time around but the forwards were crap; devoid of a plan A never mind a plan B.
Okay; the result was closer than it was in Salthill but Mayo were playing catch up all the way and Liam Sammon proved the master when it came to tactics on the sideline.
Mickey Harte also proved instrumental in Tyrone's victory in a desperately poor game when he proved far sharper in reacting to events on the field.
BTW; if anyone cares to look back at the side that took the field in Castlebar this year, it might be surprising to see how many of the older players lined out. This was not a case of giving youth a fling, IMO. Rightly or wrongly, O'Mahony stuck with the vets of former years.
My abiding memory of the game against Tyrone is the sight of Conor Mortimer being left isolated throughout the entire game with Mayo's only game plan to hoof high balls in on top of him. Asking him to compete against a taller, heavier player with an incompetent referee was asking for trouble. 
Did O'Mahony take any action to counter this in any way from start to finish?
Really, there were many other cases where I thought the manager could have reacted more decisively when matters were going against us but leaving Mortimer isolated and unprotected from start to finish sums up our championship campaigns over the last two years.
We were like sheep in a heap with the shepherd at the bottom of the pile.

[RedandGreenSniper]

We were like sheep in a heap with the shepherd at the bottom of the pile.

Great phrase Lar! Never heard that one before. I agree with what you said about pre-Galway 07. Confidence was high after the league final and any fatigue from 2006 didn't seem to be evident. I wasn't at the Galway game (couldn't bleedin get off work!) but have seen several re-runs and JOM's policy to go man on man in defence backfired spectacularly when Gardiner was brought into corner-back. The game was over before we knew it, Galway smelt blood and they went for the kill (would any Mayo team be capable of that - me thinks not). While I agree that the vets may not have given up, I think there was a certain resigned nature about all the Mayo players in the second half and particularly in the last fifteen minutes. There's no doubt that the election's proximity to that game did JOM no favours and perhaps it did contribute to him getting out witted by Ford. Or perhaps this would happen anyway? Or maybe it was just bad luck? Hard to say for certain but I'd sway towards the first one.

This year I was esconed in Oz for the game but watched it closely and the repeat several times the following day. I'd be more critical of JOM in the run up to this game. In 2007 we were going well, it was hard to foresee the Galway result. However this season a lot of people on this board expressed serious reservations about Kieran Conroy at full-back and Colm Boyle in the corner. This was a widespread opinion in the county and, unfortunately, it was proven correct. Again Galway smelt blood and went for the kill.

Tyrone was a game we could have won too. I wouldn't be inclined to aportion too much blame to the sideline here. You'd be mad to think JOM told the players to kick high balls in on top of Conor Mortimer. The players have to take some of the rap for that. And the players lost their sense of direction in the final ten minutes against a cuter Tyrone team. Perhaps JOM could have put in a target man but thats only part of it.

I think there is a consensus that JOM is not the tactical genius a lot of people thought he was. But I still think he  is capable of making progress this year. I'd hold judgement on him til the end of the season if I can and then assess things with regard to should he stay or go (I know that's not whats being suggested). I'd still believe that he's capable of redeeming himself. As I said before his legacy is on the line here. For me that would be much more important than relying on the football to win him votes (it didn't seem to matter anyway in 2007, with him getting elected after being hammered by Galway).

We'll see, we'll see

[mannix]

FATIGUE?
what about kerry every year, no sign of fatigue and them in league and championship final more than the next few teams combined.
pete sampras, manchester utd,boston redsox,kerry,sonia o sullivan and lance armstrong spring to mind as people who don't do excuses of being tired to stop them winning, why sjhould Mayo.
Maybe we just need excuses to continue the losing streak.

[RedandGreenSniper]

FATIGUE?
what about kerry every year, no sign of fatigue and them in league and championship final more than the next few teams combined.
pete sampras, manchester utd,boston redsox,kerry,sonia o sullivan and lance armstrong spring to mind as people who don't do excuses of being tired to stop them winning, why sjhould Mayo.
Maybe we just need excuses to continue the losing streak.

My point is that there wasn't signs of fatigue because fatigue wasn't necessarily the reason. It was a handy enough excuse afterwards. I think it was more a case that the Galway game just reawakened doubts in the players heads from 2006. The teams/individuals you mention there are winners. Success breeds success, unfortunately for us failure seems to breed failure too. Failure is what hangs over every Mayo team that will get to an All-Ireland final. Its a hard mindset to change . . .

[mannix]

red  and green,
i was not questioning your post, i too heard it said by players that they were fatigued even though they had months of no hard training,i was pointing out that its an excuse.
And the doubts in the minds theory can be shot down too, two words :munster rugby

[RedandGreenSniper]

red  and green,
i was not questioning your post, i too heard it said by players that they were fatigued even though they had months of no hard training,i was pointing out that its an excuse.
And the doubts in the minds theory can be shot down too, two words :munster rugby

Yeah I know that these doubts can be overcome. It does take a change in mindset though and Mayo have more catching up than anyone to do in terms of changing mindsets. That's why the minors winning this year would have been great. Mix those lads with a few of the U-21 winners in 2006 and you'd have lads who have a rare confidence - a Mayoman with an All-Ireland winners medal in his pocket