Mayo Football and Hurling - Discussion pages

[moysider]

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Consideration for what?Anyone read the book?Nothing against him but I do not know why he felt that people wanted to know his story.I thought it was a piss take when it was announced that he was writing a book.Funnily enough I have not heard one Mayo supporter call for his return to the team over the past 2 years even tho he is Mayos all time leading scorer and we probably could have used him at some stage,which I think says a lot.

For inclusion in the panel I assume. Only saying this out there. Might not happen but I suspect he has unfinished business.

I ve heard a good few Mayo supporters question his absence actually. Understandable to an extent when some forwards included in the panel after his exile were cuck compared to Mort.
Now for those many people who hated Conoreen and thought he was iffy, I wonder what they made of some of those retained?
I ll always imagine that he may have made a difference. Some of those preferred in his absence couldn t.

[muppet]

We could certainly do with a reliable left-footed free taker. Also when he played he was usually picked up by the best defender. That wouldn't happen with Cillian there. However he is 32 (I believe) and it would depend on the view of the squad. If he was flying and the squad were in the main happy, I'd have him there.

[maigheo]

I do not think the squads  view on whether he should come back should come into it.If Connelly and Holmes think he can improve the team then he should  be brought back but at this stage I cannot see him  taking to the role of a potential impact sub

[muppet]

I do not think the squads  view on whether he should come back should come into it.If Connelly and Holmes think he can improve the team then he should  be brought back but at this stage I cannot see him  taking to the role of a potential impact sub

Really?

If the squad were all against it, you would still bring him back?

[maigheo]

Obiviously not but a manager would only run it by a few of his top players if  he was thinking of brining back a controversial player and then make the decision himself.At the end of the day Mort left the panel and made sure to do it at a time to cause the most disruption so I have little sympathy for him and I would prefer not to see him back

[IolarCoisCuain]

I've read the book.

If I understand it correctly - Conor isn't always consistent in what he says - he wasn't being picked for the team and he wanted to know why. Conor was told there was a place for him on the bench, but Jason Doherty and Enda Varley were being picked ahead of him because they were better tacklers. Conor couldn't come to terms with this and walked.

Now. There's two things there - the bench, and the tackling. On the bench, Conor doesn't buy into the modern notion of a squad. As he says himself in the book, "sitting on the bench ... that's limbo land." That's not a helpful attitude.

On the tackling, Conor makes it plain that he considers forwards to have one job and one job only, and that's scoring (he also says that Trevor was a forward more than a back, while conceding that Trevor had a problem with shooting. How does this sit with Conor's attitude that a forward's job is to score? Like I say, he can be a little logicially inconsistent).

Moysider is correct in saying that Mortimer was a better scorer on his worst day than some of the others who were picked ahead of him. But that's not what he was asked to do.

He doesn't say it, but it's fairly clear that Conor had zero interest in tackling. He wanted to play his way, or not at all. And he choose not at all, of his own free will.

Could Conor have made a difference, coming off the bench? Sure he could. But his ego wouldn't let him sit on the bench in the first place. As for the thing about the duty of a forward being to score and not to tackle, Donegal wouldn't have won three of four Ulster titles if Michael Murphy had the same attitude as Conor. And I think that settles the debate.

[moysider]

Not sure it does though Iolar. That s the thing.

When Conor walked I didn t shed a tear. I first saw him play in 97 and as well as being the smallest lad on the field he was also brilliant and a scamp. He never seemed to grow up and maybe a lot of us saw his departure as the last of the old ways when some of our best talent always seemed to refuse to develop into responsible leaders.

I remember Conoreen tackling back well in his last few appearances. I haven t read the book (and unlikely that I will) but I would take a lot of Conoreen's words as spin, justification, revisionism etc. Maybe even bitterness - but I haven t read the book.

The tackling/workrate issue is a double edged sword.

Conor -for his size- could win his own ball and generally use it fairly well. Unless he had a top defender on him (he usually had) he could do real damage.If you pick Varley e.g. instead, you are going to win less ball inside, concede possession to a team that counters-attack and carry less threat. Maybe Varley was a better tackler? He wasn t great either but he d have a lot more chasing to do! Anybody that was at the Ballyshannon Massacre in league in 2012 will know what I mean. Yet Varley stayed in the plans right up til the Kerry games 2014.
This is not about having a go at Varley. Another forward called Alan Murphy could not be used at all! Must be a savage man to track back in training.

Conoreen has had his speak on things and the real story often takes longer to seep out. I believe there was considerably player influence involved in panel evolution during the Horan era. But, as I say, the real story may take some time to emerge, or may never emerge.

[IolarCoisCuain]

I'm not sure that's really the point Moysider. In a team, there can only be one boss.

Now, if a boss is cute, he can handle difficult men. There was an American football coach, Chuck Noll, who thought any eejit could coach a star team. But to take a player with potential, get him over his troubles and then show the world he's star - Noll thought that was coaching.

There's no hard and fast rule on this. The Argentinean coach at the World Cup was there to agree with Messi. Was Conor as far ahead of every other Gaelic footballer in Ireland as Messi was every soccer player in the world? Conor had delusions of grandeur.

I don't think it's a question of Horan choosing one particular player or another over Conor. I think it's a more a case of he wanted all his men marching to the same tune, and that tune wasn't on Conor's playlist. There's only one way that's ever going to go.

[maigheo]

I often think that Horan ,in 4 years got way more criticism than j.o.m in his 4 years even tho there is no comparison between there records.Mort started at least 4 or 5 league games but it seems morts display in the league final was when Horan decided that he was not starter material.Horan had a vision of how he wanted Mayo to play and if 29 players on the panel were buying into it and one was not then it was only ever going to end in one way.You have the likes of Barry Moran and Tom Parsons who were dropped off the panel but thro hard work and persistence made there way back.That was not going to be the way for Mort who probably considered himself one of the top forwards in the country and that he should have been an automatic starter on the Mayo team .On another note I see Connelly and Holmes were interviewed on Madwest today.Came across ok but I think for some people they are talking way to much even before a ball is kicked

[moysider]

I'm not sure that's really the point Moysider. In a team, there can only be one boss.

Now, if a boss is cute, he can handle difficult men. There was an American football coach, Chuck Noll, who thought any eejit could coach a star team. But to take a player with potential, get him over his troubles and then show the world he's star - Noll thought that was coaching.

There's no hard and fast rule on this. The Argentinean coach at the World Cup was there to agree with Messi. Was Conor as far ahead of every other Gaelic footballer in Ireland as Messi was every soccer player in the world? Conor had delusions of grandeur.

I don't think it's a question of Horan choosing one particular player or another over Conor. I think it's a more a case of he wanted all his men marching to the same tune, and that tune wasn't on Conor's playlist. There's only one way that's ever going to go.

Yeah. And neither Argentina or Mayo win.
I m not so sure that Conor would not march to the tune but he was not wanted in the parade. And there was another casualty of that type of purge. I ve no doubt that Conoreen could have gone through stone walls but his fate was sealed. He was dead man walking from a long way out.

I think it is unfair to compare Conoreen to Donegal's Michael Murphy. Compare him instead' maybe, to McFadden - a giant of a man in size - who has been indulged for years because he can finish. Work- rate of a sick hen, and possibly cost Donegal in final this year because he was so immobile. He' s been carried for years because others do the donkey work and he can nail a score. Would Conoreen have been in McGuiness's team? Yeah, I think. That man knew what different players were capable off and contributed in different ways.


Horan made his choices but he did get it wrong in the end. He ran out of bench.

[maigheo]

Jeez I would never have compared Mort to McFadden in a million years.Bar 2006 Mort rarely produced in big games and whatever about Horan not wanting him Jim Mcguiness certainly would not have entertained  Mortimer in any way shape or form.To be fair to Mort he gave a lot of years to Mayo football but he would never have been considered a top inter county forward out side his own head.

[muppet]

Jeez I would never have compared Mort to McFadden in a million years.Bar 2006 Mort rarely produced in big games and whatever about Horan not wanting him Jim Mcguiness certainly would not have entertained  Mortimer in any way shape or form.To be fair to Mort he gave a lot of years to Mayo football but he would never have been considered a top inter county forward out side his own head.

Really?

If you don't like the man fair enough, but this is a ridiculous comment for a former All-Star, Mayo's top scorer ever and top scorer in the Championship.

[Farrandeelin]

I fail to believe Horan got more criticism than Johnno's second coming.

[IolarCoisCuain]

I m not so sure that Conor would not march to the tune but he was not wanted in the parade. And there was another casualty of that type of purge. I ve no doubt that Conoreen could have gone through stone walls but his fate was sealed. He was dead man walking from a long way out.

Maigheo's point about Tom Parsons and Barry Moran being exiled and being brought back would suggest that Horan mightn't be as set in his ways as all that Moysider. As for any other casualties, I don't know. I've only read Conor's book, and these are the conclusions I've drawn from it.

I fail to believe Horan got more criticism than Johnno's second coming.

Funny you should mention it Farrandeelin. Conor has huge time for Johnno. Can't praise him enough. Thinks Johnno did a mighty job while he was in charge, but was let down by the calibre of his assistants.

Now. We all know that Johnno walked in 1991 because he wasn't let choose his own selectors. I'd say he was let choose his back room second time around so, if the backroom staff weren't any good, it was Johnno that picked them. As I said earlier, Conor can be a little inconsistent in his arguments.

[Farrandeelin]

Since this whole Mortimer saga has erupted, (Lord God can we ever just shut up and let football do the talking ) I was reminded of what my neighbour said to me in the wake of Mort's departure from the panel. The neighbour in question works with Horan in Coke. He asked him about Mortimer and if he (Horan) was shocked by it and Horan kind of gave him the impression that he wanted Mortimer off the whole panel. A "raison d'etre" on behalf of Horan if you like, as it seemed as if he hadn't a care in the world about Mort.

I would prefer to see Iolar's side though. I think that Horan would have wanted him to leave because he wasn't in line with the rest of them. You have to buy in to team tactics etc. Imagine a Kilkenny hurler quitting because he was on the bench! Well I for one can't, and I can only imagine him stepping up to the mark if he was brought on and in training the next night the squad gathered together.