Is it about time we grew up and stopped gloating about England's misfortunes?

[deiseach]

This isn't 1981 anymore. The world has moved on and there are just as many nationalists as loyalists who are willing to wallow in the empty rhetoric of the past. All they're doing is making what they want become more of a remote possibility by pushing away the very people they need to get on side to make a united Ireland a reality.

Another line of reasoning I've never understood, i.e. the idea that Irish Nationalism can somehow turn Unionists towards the possibility of a united Ireland by being less nationalistic. Can you elaborate on how that's meant to work?

Now that both sides have (mostly) stopped trying to make play-dough of each other the question for nationalists is how to they get a united Ireland with the chess board set as it is today.

They have to put the single-minded obsession with a united Ireland to one side and work on building a north that's more inclusive and less divided along old political and religious lines. They have to genuinely make northern Ireland the best society it can be within the United Kingdom before the divisions of the past really start to ease and moderate unionists start to forget what they were so afraid of to begin with.

It might take generations but that is literally the only way the north will ever become part of the republic and so not doing everything in your power to not throw out stupid, childish language like 'occupied six counties' just pours more concrete on the very things that need to be removed before a united Ireland is ever realised.

How do those people expect to ever get the future they want by living in the past?

The idea that an inclusive, less divided Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom is going to increase the chances of a united Ireland is self-evident nonsense. Your argument reminds me of Terence O'Neill's idea that the way to preserve Northern Ireland was to give the Taigs jobs and housing and that way they'd be more inclined to breed and behave like Protestants. It's offensive to think that public policy can influence a collective sense of national identity, with the added quirk in your outlook that a successful Northern state will make it less secure.

[deiseach]

But we've sorted that. The British are now onside for a United Ireland. It's only Irish people who are opposing it now.

The British people in Northern Ireland retain a veto over any settlement. They've accepted the current one, which is great. The killing has stopped. But should the time come when a majority in Northern Ireland support a united Ireland, you can expect violence and don't expect the British to abandon their own.

Ah c'mon, if a referendum was passed, the UK government would NOT support a violent uprising from loyalists. Not a mission.

The rhetoric of any referendum will be completely poisonous. Any 'violent uprising' on the part of Unionism will not be characterised as such, but seen as resistance to the final triumph of the IRA. Supporting such a rebellion would practically be a duty.

[Myles Na G.]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

[Syferus]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

It is a country. Sin é.

That's not an opinion or even a debatable point. You can hold whatever conviction you want to hold but it is quite obviously wrong. Don't attack people because you choose not to accept reality.

The great debate of semantics. Fought with names, flags and fadas. Another aspect of the north that needs some serious perspective, and I don't mean looking back mournfully or with clenched fists.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Every country,county , town village and town land in the world has a rival. Wise up of course it's ok to gloat over England's misfortunes. Far too much pc wishy washy knobheads about tbh

[Galwaybhoy]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

[lfdown2]

This isn't 1981 anymore. The world has moved on and there are just as many nationalists as loyalists who are willing to wallow in the empty rhetoric of the past. All they're doing is making what they want become more of a remote possibility by pushing away the very people they need to get on side to make a united Ireland a reality.

Another line of reasoning I've never understood, i.e. the idea that Irish Nationalism can somehow turn Unionists towards the possibility of a united Ireland by being less nationalistic. Can you elaborate on how that's meant to work?

Now that both sides have (mostly) stopped trying to make play-dough of each other the question for nationalists is how to they get a united Ireland with the chess board set as it is today.

They have to put the single-minded obsession with a united Ireland to one side and work on building a north that's more inclusive and less divided along old political and religious lines. They have to genuinely make northern Ireland the best society it can be within the United Kingdom before the divisions of the past really start to ease and moderate unionists start to forget what they were so afraid of to begin with.

It might take generations but that is literally the only way the north will ever become part of the republic and so not doing everything in your power to not throw out stupid, childish language like 'occupied six counties' just pours more concrete on the very things that need to be removed before a united Ireland is ever realised.

How do those people expect to ever get the future they want by living in the past?

The idea that an inclusive, less divided Northern Ireland within the United Kingdom is going to increase the chances of a united Ireland is self-evident nonsense. Your argument reminds me of Terence O'Neill's idea that the way to preserve Northern Ireland was to give the Taigs jobs and housing and that way they'd be more inclined to breed and behave like Protestants. It's offensive to think that public policy can influence a collective sense of national identity, with the added quirk in your outlook that a successful Northern state will make it less secure.

Was he not correct, are we not now finding exactly that. Many young people who would have in the past been nailed on nationalists are now considering themselves northern irish, happy to have a job, peace and with smaller families?

[ONeill]

I like to see England do alright. Always think the tv coverage loses a bit of spark when they go out because they fairly divide opinion.

[Galwaybhoy]

Maith fcukin thú. And is Jack grand too?

Typical responce.  If I said something you disagree with come back to me.

[Myles Na G.]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

Like Syferus, you're very good at telling those of us in the north what are problems are. Here's one of my problems: people in the 26 counties who think that my Irishness somehow depends upon whether a Dublin administration does or does not have a 'claim'  over me. Big news, it doesn't. I'm as Irish as anyone from Dublin, or Cork or Galway by virtue of the fact that I was born in Belfast on the island of Ireland, irrespective of what an administration elected by people in the 26 counties thinks or decrees. That makes me part of the Irish nation as far as I'm concerned. The nation may currently be dispersed across two political jurisdictions, but that does not  - or at least, should not - dilute its legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Northern Irish nation, nor is there a Republic of Ireland nation. There is just the Irish nation. Calling the 26 counties 'Ireland', or claiming that it is a country, is to diminish what the Irish nation is and what it represents. It also insults those Irish people who live outside the 26 county jurisdiction.

[Hardy]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

Like Syferus, you're very good at telling those of us in the north what are problems are. Here's one of my problems: people in the 26 counties who think that my Irishness somehow depends upon whether a Dublin administration does or does not have a 'claim'  over me. Big news, it doesn't. I'm as Irish as anyone from Dublin, or Cork or Galway by virtue of the fact that I was born in Belfast on the island of Ireland, irrespective of what an administration elected by people in the 26 counties thinks or decrees. That makes me part of the Irish nation as far as I'm concerned. The nation may currently be dispersed across two political jurisdictions, but that does not  - or at least, should not - dilute its legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Northern Irish nation, nor is there a Republic of Ireland nation. There is just the Irish nation. Calling the 26 counties 'Ireland', or claiming that it is a country, is to diminish what the Irish nation is and what it represents. It also insults those Irish people who live outside the 26 county jurisdiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yGVY-xVaSQ

[ziggysego]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

Like Syferus, you're very good at telling those of us in the north what are problems are. Here's one of my problems: people in the 26 counties who think that my Irishness somehow depends upon whether a Dublin administration does or does not have a 'claim'  over me. Big news, it doesn't. I'm as Irish as anyone from Dublin, or Cork or Galway by virtue of the fact that I was born in Belfast on the island of Ireland, irrespective of what an administration elected by people in the 26 counties thinks or decrees. That makes me part of the Irish nation as far as I'm concerned. The nation may currently be dispersed across two political jurisdictions, but that does not  - or at least, should not - dilute its legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Northern Irish nation, nor is there a Republic of Ireland nation. There is just the Irish nation. Calling the 26 counties 'Ireland', or claiming that it is a country, is to diminish what the Irish nation is and what it represents. It also insults those Irish people who live outside the 26 county jurisdiction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yGVY-xVaSQ

Makes perfect sense to me. Sure aren't you all always saying Paisley and Robinson are Irish?

[Syferus]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

Like Syferus, you're very good at telling those of us in the north what are problems are. Here's one of my problems: people in the 26 counties who think that my Irishness somehow depends upon whether a Dublin administration does or does not have a 'claim'  over me. Big news, it doesn't. I'm as Irish as anyone from Dublin, or Cork or Galway by virtue of the fact that I was born in Belfast on the island of Ireland, irrespective of what an administration elected by people in the 26 counties thinks or decrees. That makes me part of the Irish nation as far as I'm concerned. The nation may currently be dispersed across two political jurisdictions, but that does not  - or at least, should not - dilute its legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Northern Irish nation, nor is there a Republic of Ireland nation. There is just the Irish nation. Calling the 26 counties 'Ireland', or claiming that it is a country, is to diminish what the Irish nation is and what it represents. It also insults those Irish people who live outside the 26 county jurisdiction.

You seem much more obsessed with creating a distinction between Irish people than Galwaybhoy or I.

[Galwaybhoy]

I don't mind England and I do have more interest when they are playing but I don't like to see them win.  It's rivalry, I don't wish them any harm or anything like that.  What I don't understand is why so many people talk about immaturity when people in this country cheer against England (normally non-football fans say this) but yet it seems to be perfectly acceptable for Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales to shout against England.

However there are instances when England will have my full support - Normally against Northern Ireland and Australia in football and anytime they play New Zealand, Australia or South Africa in Rugby.

'this country'? You mean the 26 county state? Hardly a country.

The term "country" is used to refer to sovereign states.  You can call it what ever floats your boat, I don't get caught up on names when it comes to this island.

So
Republic of Ireland
Free State
the 26 counties
The south
Ireland

Take your pick.

Any of those, bar the last. Ireland doesn't stop at the border.

I never mentioned Ireland in my original post only the word country so unless you don't believe the 26 county state is a country I don't know why you attacked my post.  Seems like you were looking for any reason to pounce.

You talked about 'this country' and then you mentioned Northern Ireland. You obviously think that these are two separate countries. That's where we part company. I think Ireland is one country, though it is currently divided into two separate political states. Neither of these states, in my view, is a 'country'. I get tetchy when people talk like they are.

Like many people in the north you need to forget about being 'tetchy' and accept peoples opinions on the matter.

However this isn't so much an opinion as it is fact.  Under the Good Friday Agreement we on this island have accepted that there are two different states on this island.  The south gave up any claim it had to the six counties in the north.  As the word 'country' can be used when referencing different states then that makes it a fact the the 26 county state is a country.  With the right conditions I would support a United Ireland but not if it means 1000's of innocent lives.  Over the years I have found myself caring less about names and flags and caring more about peace.

Like Syferus, you're very good at telling those of us in the north what are problems are. Here's one of my problems: people in the 26 counties who think that my Irishness somehow depends upon whether a Dublin administration does or does not have a 'claim'  over me. Big news, it doesn't. I'm as Irish as anyone from Dublin, or Cork or Galway by virtue of the fact that I was born in Belfast on the island of Ireland, irrespective of what an administration elected by people in the 26 counties thinks or decrees. That makes me part of the Irish nation as far as I'm concerned. The nation may currently be dispersed across two political jurisdictions, but that does not  - or at least, should not - dilute its legitimacy. There is no such thing as a Northern Irish nation, nor is there a Republic of Ireland nation. There is just the Irish nation. Calling the 26 counties 'Ireland', or claiming that it is a country, is to diminish what the Irish nation is and what it represents. It also insults those Irish people who live outside the 26 county jurisdiction.

Talk about wanting to pick a fight over nothing.  I never said you weren't Irish you like many are looking for excuses to be insulted.  You are like anyone born on this island entitled to an Irish passport and entitled to be an Irish person however just like those in the north, Northern Ireland, the six counties - choose which ever wording you like is also entitled to feel British.

All this just cause I used the words Ireland and Northern Ireland in the one post.  If you haven't understood by now I don't mind or care what flag you or anyone else flies or what nationality you want to be.  Your fully entitled to either but picking argumens over the words people use to describe this bloody island is where alot of the problems start.

[T Fearon]

Gloating about England's misfortunes at Euro and World Cup Finals is one of the few things that unites both communities in the North. So much so in fact that it should attract EU funding for the construction of neutral shared space gloating facilities