America`s Gun Culture

Started by Wildweasel74, December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

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Franko

#345
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.

Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

muppet

Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?
MWWSI 2017

Franko

Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:42:51 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 05:33:08 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:16:06 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 04:30:18 PM
Fair enough muppet, you must be right.  As always.

Nine innocent people were shot by a maniac with a gun and your contribution is to pluck some image of the aftermath and use it to have a go at the police.

I think this says more about your prejudices than anything else.


Yawn. I am pointing out the insensitive treatment of survivors, as I see it. With the benefit of hindsight, we can see it was a completely pointless. exercise But even before we had the benefit of hindsight, we could reasonably argue that it was likely to pointless by asking how often has this approach yielded results in the past?

But you keep throwing out your insults and personalising the debate, 'as always'.

I don't know. You tell me, you seem to be well versed on how to handle these incidents from a policing point of view so why don't you enlighten us?

You seem to spend all you time arguing against things that weren't said and then turn them into insults. I have never said that I was 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', nor even suggested it.

Do you posts here also mean that you are also obviously 'well versed on how to handle these incidents', or does the sarcasm only work one way?

You are the one defending lining up all survivors and treating all them as suspects. Even in the absence of a suspect or any information pointing to the existence of such a suspect.

I asked you to give me an example of where this has been productive. If you can't fair enough, but now you want me to find evidence to support your argument?  :D

If you have nothing constructive to say on the subject, other than insults, why are you bothering?

On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents.  All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

muppet

Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

MWWSI 2017

stew

Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

muppet

Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 07:55:58 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 05:24:11 PM
Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 04:36:45 PM
He has a point muppet!

The cops had snipers protecting them  from the rooftops, that was why they were not worried about their own safety as much, plus if they drawn their guns students, some students might have panicked and really effed things up.

But if the students might panic as the sight of a cop drawing a gun, how did they feel about snipers pointing their weapons at them?

They had just been through a very stressful ordeal. Some more than others obviously, but the possibility of abnormal behaviour, for example a panic attack, from one of them would have been a lot higher than normal.

What would you have them do?

Treat them as if they had just survived a mass shooting. Many of these people would need counselling, or to make contact with their loved ones to tell them they were fine, or to check on loved ones to see if they were ok. We can't tell too much from a couple of photos, I accept that, but to be all lined up with your hands on your head is adding insult to injury for me.

The narrative always seems to be about 'The Bad Guy'. The NRA always rant about 'the bad guy with a gun'. Even when he is already dead it seems they prioritise looking for another bad guy with a gun, rather than helping survivors. Even the examples of cops shooting unarmed men can arguably be put down to cops making poor decisions, under pressure, because of this constant fear of the bad guy with a gun.
MWWSI 2017

whitey

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.

muppet

Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 08:51:58 PM
https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2014/11/30/lockdown-silent-safety-drill-the-school-security-language-debate/v30JvvEZR8T2R8dARoGG2H/story.html

Most schools districts would have an "active shooter drill" already in place prior to something like this happening.

If you disagreed with certain aspects of the drill in your district, Im sure you could make your views known at the next town meeting.

All of that is fine and understandable from the schools point of view.

But where is the discourse on the killers and their weapons from the wider community? For example regarding weapons, you can have your deodorant confiscated in an airport, because of an attack 14 years ago, but you can own 6 guns and bring them on campus, because it is a civil right.

And then there are the killers. Are there any psychologists here (or similar) that can explain, even to a small degree, what possesses people to take a gun into a school and fire at random targets? Is there a profile that they usually confirm to, or is it just completely random?
MWWSI 2017

whitey

#353
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

muppet

Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?
MWWSI 2017

Bazil Douglas

Quote from: The Iceman on October 06, 2015, 04:40:42 PM
so lads what would really work to fix all this?
My view of Americans across the country having lived on both sides and travelled throughout the place is that there are too many guns out there for any ban to be effective (at least in the short-medium term).

there can be tighter laws on who can own guns, who can buy guns - but those won't be fully supported by local law enforcement from what I can see.  There is a long and slow road to fix this. What are the first steps?


It's sad to see.

I have guns here because I hunt and for home protection. I grew up in Armagh with guns in the house, it was just part of country life.

Stricter controls would go a long way in fixing this problem, but it really is the wild west,some states in america actually permit the carrying of an assault rifle in public.WTF does anyone need an assault rifle for.I own several guns myself,but  to do so  I needed background checks, references, a suitable storage cabinet,proof of gun club membership,and theres rules were and when I can carry and use these weapons. there's absolutely no rules in America. Northern Ireland has over 150,000 legally held weapons which really don't pose the problems we see in America.

whitey

Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 10:46:34 PM
Quote from: whitey on October 06, 2015, 09:20:51 PM
This guy and the Newtown guy (and quite a few of the other shooters) were taking some type of anti psychotic medication-usually Ritalin or some such drug, which gets completely over prescribed over here.

Its the easy way out for the schools and parents who often dont have the resources to work through minor behavioral issues (thats a generalization, but true for the most part)

Many of the shooters were/are also "on the spectrum", ie suffering from some form of Autism.

Why anyone would think giving someone like thata gun, is beyond me.

http://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a32858/drugging-of-the-american-boy-0414/

I didn't realise that about medication and these shooters.

That opens up a few issues, not least the issuing of guns (6!) as you mentioned. I spent a summer in the States in my teens and one of the family I stayed with was (as it was called then) moderately mentally handicapped. I  know we are talking about a different part of the spectrum, and probably a different spectrum, but I was very impressed with the organisation of his life and the routine that his family and wider community had made for him.

My impression of the States, as a result, was that the community offered great support to those in need. But maybe this was not that widespread?

Well the problem is, you cant legislate for stupidity.  Who would give a gun (of any description) to someone suffering from mental problems? 

Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

The question is....where does someones RIGHT to own a gun end? 

omaghjoe

Quote from: stew on October 06, 2015, 03:52:01 PM

I just watched a youtube clip were a boy was telling us that they USA ranks 111th on gun related deaths per 100,000 people per capita, now this is because the USA has the highest gun ownership in the world with 90 people out of a hundred people having one.

Honduras was numero uno, he further stated that if Detroit was taken out of the equation and was it's own country, at 54 per 1000,000 it would rank second out of 218 nations.

I suppose the so called facts could be wrong but I thought the yanks would be top ten/fifteen.

Maybe 11th

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

armaghniac

Quote from: whitey on October 07, 2015, 03:36:02 AM
Theres great support for the disabled in the States.....50 times better than what youd find in Ireland The wealthier the state and the town, the better it gets. ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act) provides for all sorts of support that is legally mandated.

That's handy, if the gunman only injures you.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Franko

#359
Quote from: muppet on October 06, 2015, 07:19:11 PM
Quote from: Franko on October 06, 2015, 06:34:20 PM
On the contrary muppet, I don't believe at any stage that I stated or inferred that I knew better than the police, that was your role.  I'm happy that the police handled the incident in whatever way they saw fit.  I don't pretend to know any better.  You made the initial claim that they handled it wrongly.  You also claimed that they wouldn't have handled it this way if they'd looked at the results of past incidents. All I asked was for you to outline these incidents?  It's certainly not up to me to do so!

Where did I claim this?

As for the initial claim, I disagreed with the way they treated survivors. Now for this I get sarcasm and personal abuse, from yourself.  Only yourself mind.

I don't think that's all you got.  The only thing I said that could possibly be construed as abuse was that I thought your opinions stemmed from you prejudices about the police in America.  That opinion wasn't only raised by me mind.