Alliance showing their true colours now

[Hardy]

Eating meat/ or not eating meat on Friday was a practice or tradition, an act of self sacrifice, in much the same way as abstaining at Lent still is, and not an obligation attracting a sinful default. 

They lied to me about that as well, then. It was one of the six "commandments of the church", as I remember it, which were a sort of local set of bye-laws appended to Moses's stone tablets. Breach had to be confessed in the dark box and it was a venial sin.

As for purgatory and limbo, I think they were just surreptitiously swept away when no one was looking, but without making any provision whatever for the millions of souls languishing there for, among other things ... see meat above.

And ne temere has been replaced by something a little less brazen and arrogant.

[Rossfan]

Is the main objection to "integrated" schools the fact that they will be raising people to be little model British citizens  . i.e a question of Nationality or is it because Catholics want their children going to Catholic ethos schools?

[AQMP]

Is the main objection to "integrated" schools the fact that they will be raising people to be little model British citizens  . i.e a question of Nationality or is it because Catholics want their children going to Catholic ethos schools?

My guess is, it has little or nothing to do with nationality or national identity

[nifan]

Would this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?

Where is football a compulsory part of the curriculum? In my school they relented and allowed football in 6th year, though no team was allowed.

[nifan]

The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable.

How is it decided which bits of the non changeable bible to use for the rules - it seems to contain a vast number of rules (and punishments) of which only some appear to be held so dear.

[supersarsfields]

Would this mean that GAA would become compulsory in state schools as part of the curriculum similar to soccer? And that Irish would have to be provided as an option for languages? Or would these be banished to extra-curriculum activities?
Would the compromise be all on the Catholic schools side? That they drop anything remotely connected to an Irish tradition without the state school modifying it's outlook to allow for the changed interests of it's new found students?

Where is football a compulsory part of the curriculum? In my school they relented and allowed football in 6th year, though no team was allowed.

I'm not sure what way it is now. But when I was in school we had so many weeks soccer, so many Football, so many gymnastics/ athletics etc in PE. Often resulting in a dispute in between the soccer loving townies (Walk on Puckoon) and the Gaa loving country folk on which was to be played. I would expect that in a intergrated school equality would be given to both Soccer and GAA.

[Puckoon]

Do we know each other? Soccer loving townie??? Played my first ever organised soccer match 10 years ago, in the USA. It is true that you are a Baa loving country cub however.

I remember being summoned to a meeting with my parents, and my RE and form teacher where it was stated that I had NO chance of passing my GCSE RE exam unless I ceased expressing my own interpretations and arguments of the lessons of the gospel according to St Mark and started regurgitating what was being suggested by the teachings of the school.

That said, I think the recent flag protests have certainly highlighted all the great work that the Catholic Church did in pushing such a high percentage of all economic classes of catholics to succeed with their education. I don't think that in any way negates the value of intergrated education. There is no other way to state it - education based on religious belief systems will only serve to prolong cultural segregation.

[supersarsfields]

Aye you were an exception to the rules Puck. There's always one!!

[armaghniac]

"forced" integrated schooling is a bit suspect as all social engineering of this sort is, when other places are proposing to increase parental choice rather than reduce it. Because of the segregated geography, you'd still have very unbalanced schools unless you engaged in busing. What would you have to do make Clonalig school give the appearance of balance?  In reality, the PUL side of the house don't have the confidence to engage in this,unless it is fake, which makes sense as their case is not one that can be exposed to reason. I'd also see a bit of adverse comment that nationalists could simply head along to the local Gaelscoil, and you'd have fake Ulster Scots schools starting up.

[Maguire01]

Cadence, there is no means of changing faith rules I'm afraid. The basis of faith, the Bible, is non changeable. If the thrust of all religious sects is to save sinners from final damnation, on account of sin,they are unlikely therefore to change the rules to accommodate sins (as they would perceive to be) practised by some of their members, for PR purposes.

You're clearly deluded if you believe that - there are numerous examples of how the rules have changed.

Now whether you like reliogious sects or loathe them, you have to admire their steadfastness in the face of global criticism.

If that was the criteria, then you'd have to admire the BNP and al-Qaeda.

[Maguire01]

All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.

So why do we need different sectors then?

Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.

Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?

Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.

FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.

Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)

[Maguire01]

  If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular.
If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda .....
Very hard to shift people's mindsets ...

Do people who have Religious beliefs not have to pay tax?

They do. And for their taxes, their children can access the education system, just like the rest. My point would be that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more.

Regardless of what faith a private school has, as long as it educates children to the standard the curriculum demands, then the state should be obliged to support those schools, to a similar extent that it supports state sector schools.
If parents want to have a Steiner secondary education, that school should receive the same pupil to teacher ratio financial support, plus building maintenance etc. Usually the Steiner people will do all the groundwork in establishing the school, making it work and raise extra funds. Such education establishments are less of a financial burden on the State, than 100% State run institutions. 
It's a boring world, if you just want to have a communist style imposed single State supported system of education.

Does the University sector or FE College sector seem boring or communist.

Is that a reply to my post?  I thought you might make an effort to explain yourself better and refrain from glib nonsense.
According to your way of thinking, there's only one system for primary and secondary education, the state's way and if you don't like it then pay for your own alternate choice.
I have invited you to examine the idea, that many different types of schools can exist in the State funded sector, teaching a similar curriculum with trained teachers. It won't cost the state any more to fund the teaching of these children than if they went to a 100% state built and run school.
Maybe you can expand on your point
"that if they demand a separate sector to accommodate their 'religious ethos', they can pay more."

My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.

The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.

[Ulick]

All this talk of religion in schools is nonsense, all schools teach the same curricula, including RE.

So why do we need different sectors then?

Some of us like the choice of not having our children educated as homogeneous Nornern Irish Brits.

Is that what happens in our local universities and FE colleges?

Anyway, as the argument goes, a United Ireland would not simply be a takeover by the 26 counties - similarly a proper state sector would reflect the diverse background of its pupils.

FE and HE are not compulsory and will normally have an ethos centred on learning and scholarly study. Very different from primary and secondary education.

Eh? Should primary and secondary schools not have an ethos of learning and study, what with them being in the business of education? I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18, if there's no valid reason for continuing segregation thereafter. (Unless you believe we should have faith-based FE and HE institutions too?)

Of course they should but primary and secondary schools are about much more than learning and study. They have children at their formative years, all our children, and as such are hugely character forming particularly in how they deal with things like civic responsibility, self-worth, respect for  others in the community, pastoral care, professional growth, the less fortunate, the arts, sports etc... These are rarely central planks of HE and FE here though arguably the liberal arts colleges in the US would place greater importance on these. HE and FE here are businesses concerned with delivering very specific courses of study which no one has to attend. Two very important differences with primary and secondary.

I can't see your argument for segregated education between the ages of 5 and 16/18

I can't see it myself, though that shouldn't be strange because nowhere have I ever argued for segregated education at any age.

[Milltown Row2]

So bar TF, are we for, not so much intergrated schools but one school for all, depending on the geogerphy of the school, as most secondary schools will cater for kids in their local area. Would mean better choice for parents and mean that schools would probably raise their standards as they won't be able to depend on wee Billy or Wee Paddy always coming to their school cause he can't go to that 'other' school.

And a lot of this depends on that school takes up playing all sports and not just paying lip service, all languages too, Ulster Scot Irish and of cousre not forgeting West Belfastish

As mentioned earlier by someone, not all Catholic schools have Irish as a main language, I never did it at my school and wasn't given the choice either!!

[Main Street]

My point wasn't primarily related to cost - although the different sectors in NI has led to under-capacity in many schools, where one area is served by several schools in different sectors, and as such, is hardly efficient. You might have a faith school paying its way, but forcing a state school to run at significant financial cost.

The key issue here is the continued segregation of children in a segregated society. Weighing up the impact on wider society, i'm not convinced that parental choice is an adequate reason to maintain the status quo. I'm also not convinced that current parental choices would be the same if a proper inclusive state sector was established.

If the state does not provide the possibility for proper integrated schools where national cultural identity/language/history/ sports/music is a part of the experience, then why should a nationalist family even contemplate sending their children to anything other than the nearest catholic primary/secondary school?
The current state education model is a dead duck for a 'desegregation' of education.
Desegregation cannot be forced and especially where no proper desegregated model exists.
If the state wants to expand the existing integrated school model, then let them establish more integrated schools in areas where there are none. Or deconstruct an existing state school and transform it into an integrated model. Afaia the integrated schools are popular and oversubscribed.

On the cost thing, is it a big issue? or just an issue in some situations? is the motivation to desegregate education a cost thing or is it a social issue?  Did Belfast City Council sit down and decide the flag flying policy based on 'best cost scenario' or 'best progressive policy decision we can make, that also gives us the least worst cost scenario in policing costs?