Messages

All your mates with their "no casement" banners in Windsor are fully up to speed with the economics of the thing, yeah? They're that passionate about public expenditure that they went and made banners?

Or could it just possibly be that they don't want the fenians to have their thing?

We all know the answer.

Iirc, it was four people with two banners, out of a crowd of 17k, with a few more on the Kop telling the IFA (note) where they could stick Casement. The rest of us just got on with watching the game.

Meanwhile, had the Euro's thing gone ahead, and NI qualified, I have no doubt whatever that the great majority of NI fans would just have trekked out to Andytown to watch their team, regardless of how they got there (both literally and figuratively).

Likely including the boys with the banners, who would otherwise have been long forgotten.

But hey ho, if you want to deflect the blame for this giant fiasco onto a few people who have/had no influence whatever on what has actually transpired, then fire away. 

Yeah, i hear ya. You do your research I'll give you that but no matter what you fire at us/me it still doesn't hide the slight bitterness in your bullets you fire.

For me, "bitterness" is too strong, although I will admit to irritation, frustration and even anger at the GAA's part in this whole fiasco, as follows. When the Maze shared stadium was finally binned, the £140m-odd which Westminster had allocated to it was redirected to Stormont, to be used by the three codes for their own stadium purposes.

Rugby pushed its £16m towards Ravenhill and GAA its £62m to Casement, while Soccer opted to spend £26m of its £62m on rebuilding Windsor, with the remaining £36m to go to smaller stadia throughout NI (the bulk of it to be shared equally between The Oval, in Peter Robinson's then East Belfast constituency and The Brandywell in Martin McGuinness's Derry constituence btw).

However it was decreed that the £36m could not be released until all three major stadia were completed, thereby halving(?) its value in real terms. Indeed soccer still hasn't received it, years after it was originally approved.

So maybe now you can see why I'm bit pissed off by this whole fiasco?

There are much worse out there than you but the GAA still sends the Unionists Community buck mad and if soccer had the same following here as the GAA and that was a soccer stadium then it would have been constructed a long time ago. Maybe the soccer men wouldn't have made a bollix of it (that we both agree on) but hey ho.

As I indicated earlier, a few bucket mouths like eg Bwyson or Allister, with volume far in excess of their actual support, are pretty much irrelevant to the debate, even if they could never see it that way.

And as for your "if it was a soccer stadium then it would have been constructed a long time ago etc", well yes, in fact it was! But just as the usual bucket mouths were nothing to do with Casement not getting rebuilt, neither were they at all relevant to Windsor getting rebuilt, either. Fact is, the IFA (for once) got it right, while the GAA got it wrong, nothing more, nothing less.

And as for me, I would refer you back to what I posted in #5,281, namely that I "don't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding."

The difference is, and I don't mean EG here, loads of people in the north (themmuns) simply don't want ussuns to have anything, especially if it might outshine Windsor.

Except that so long as the issue is treated on its own merits, "themmuns" can bleat and girn all they like, but they don't actually matter. (Same with "Ciaran from West Belfast" banging on on the Nolan Show about soccer etc doesn't matter either.)

And as regards the issue itself, it is my contention that it cannot be justified to spend £200m+ of public money on building a stadium for one game a year, especially when there are already alternatives at Clones and Croke.

While soccer fans don't really care if it "outshines" Windsor, since for the majority, Casement doesn't even register much beyond driving along the M1 and spotting the floodlights. Same with Ravenhill. I mean do you, for example, really care that much about Windsor?

Large scale concerts, for example, going to Casement rather than, say, Boucher Road or the Ormeau Park would be perceived as discrimination against themmuns, even though Windsor would never be capable of hosting the same.

Sorry, but the £62m which was originally allocated to the GAA was specifically ringfenced within Stormont's SPORTS budget, having been redirected from the sports budget when the Maze Stadium was binned.

Or do you really feel it appropriate that taxpayers' money from the sports budget should go towards hosting eg Shania Twain concerts, especially when that would be subsidising unfair competition with existing venues, both privately and Council owned? (I suspect that it might even be deemed unlawful, at least if amounting to more than a very few concerts a year. And I'd have thought the GAA will have had enough legal challenges already!) 

The fact Ireland's second city doesn't have a stadium capable of hosting big inter county fixtures is an embarrassment to all.

"To all"? It's an embarrassment to the GAA certainly, especially when you examine the reasons why no such stadium has yet been built.

But I don't imagine non-GAA fans, north or south, lose too much sleep over it.

How many stadiums are full to capacity in any sports here?. I don't know about Ravenhill but i assume they get a decent crowd at their games. Windsor is at 15% capacity for club games and for NI games it looks pretty full but only a handful of games per year. GAA stadiums are no different, league games (Armagh) have been up around 9000-10,000 and Championship games is where we see the bigger attendances for obvious reasons. On the logic above we should all just have small arena's to accommodate average crowds. 

Not so much Apples and Pears as Apples and Spuds.

Fact is, NI/IFA need an international-standard stadium for half a dozen international matches every year, with Windsor being "the only game in town". Which was re-built using £26m from our originally allocated budget of £62m. Every game now attracts a full house eg at home to Belarus (no away fans) in a fairly meaningless game last month, crappy weather and adult tickets starting at over £40, yet still it sold out easily a fortnight in advance. Meanwhile, the venue is also used for other games eg Cup Finals, European club ties, womens internationals etc, as well as being made available to Linfield for their domestic games. (I say "made available" since the IFA now owns Windsor, with LFC being tenants.)

Compare that with the GAA who are looking for £150m+ over and above their original allocation of £62m, to stage precisely one full house a year (their projections), while they have another (VAT-free) venue in Clones (or Croke for a really big final), which has proven adequate up until now.

But yeah, £200m+ of public money for that? An absolute bargain...   

[I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951]

I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951

Whoa! Two. We've made two. Christ, it's bad enough without downgrading our stats any further.

Eh?

I make it one since 1951 i.e. two if you include 1951:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulster_Senior_Football_Championship#Ulster_Senior_Football_Championship_records_and_statistics

Well, if Ulster Final has huge demand for tickets, say Tyrone V Armgh, then the logical thing would be to move it to Croke Park.

A win win! More people get to seethe game and more £ for the GAA, which ultimately drips down to the clubs.

If you say so. But my point was that even by the GAA's own projections, there is absolutely no demand for a 30k+ stadium, bar one game a season. And you could see even that being taken away for certain games.

Other Ulster Finals could be held there, say Monaghan V Antrim etc.

You might want to choose another example, since I see Antrim have made precisely one Final appearance since 1951, while Monaghan have made 10 in that period.

While 29k spectators in Clones would actually generate more money overall than 32k in Casement, since the former avoids 20% VAT. (Unless you charged 20% more for tickets for Casement, which is hardly an incentive for fans.)

All of which is before you consider 'twohands!!!' earlier post re. Cork (#5325)

I think a modern neat and tidy 25, 000 seater stadium would be fine. Only going to be full a few times a year.

So you imagine that they could fill 25k seats "a few times a year"?

Here is how the GAA themselves saw it in their Event Management Plan lodged with BCC in 2018:

2-5 matches annually with attendance range 3,000-15,000 (All-Ireland Qualifiers)
2 matches annually with attendances typically around 20,000 (Ulster Championship Semi's)
1 match annually with attendance normally 32,000-34,186 (Ulster Championship Final)
(See page 8: https://minutes.belfastcity.gov.uk/documents/s92471/APPENDIX%202d%20S76%20Annex%203%20Event%20Management%20Plan.pdf )

Any bigger games i.e. Ulster Final, take them to Croke Park.

So you would move the one event they reckon should fill it as well?

That would leave a date free for an extra Garth Brooks concert, I suppose...

Looking at images of Fulham football pitch it's side is on to the river a lot closer than Casements to motorway

Yeah i've no doubt on that. Fulham only holds 25,000 from all 4 sides so i'm assuming that's the safe allowance with council and specification. In saying all that a lot of existing older grounds probably don't meet the h&s requirements and get their attendances reduced to a level that's does meet requirements. Obviously all new builds have to have everything in place.

Since they built the new Riverside Stand, there arguably is now better evacuation from it than from that which existed for the previous stand it replaces:
https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/articles/sealed-off-section-of-thames-path-in-fulham-has-opened-to-the-public-75057/

Yes, the GAA didn't cover themselves on glory over Casement but it's not just black and white to say it was all GAA's fault, there were a lot of obstacles in the way from H&S (excess & egress from Stadium), Paul Scott (Sport NI), Planning Dept, local objections etc. There were so many stumbling blocks from day 1 and I accept the GAA should have done their homework better but it wasn't just all them.

You refer to "obstacles in the way" such as H&S, almost as if these are unique to Casement/GAA.

As you know, all developments have to comply with safety regulations, incl eg Windsor and Ravenhill. Meaning it can only be down to the GAA when they submit a scheme which doesn't comply (in fact didn't even come close).
Which in that case had three further, rather sinister aspects:
1. The outrageous, politically-inspired pressure which was put on Paul Scott, a civil servant who was only doing his job, and a hugely important job at that;
2. (I think I'm right in saying that) Scott's objections were finally overriden for political reasons by an SDLP(?) Minister;
3. Most importantly, amidst frequent claims that Unionists, Soccer and others somehow "had it in for" the GAA community, this was ultimately a case of the GAA itself being indifferent to the safety of their own fans! 

You think that the Antrim GAA are not too bothered about having no stadium?. Yeah, dead on EG.

Fair enough, I'll bow to your superior knowledge. (I allowed myself to be misled by the absence of any obvious, public protests by Antrim fans over the long delay in getting the new stadium built.)

One big factor you missed out on was IFA and NI Soccer fans would not share a stadium with the GAA.
 

Which stadium are you talking about?

If it's the Maze, the IRFU never committed to play any games there, merely noting instead that it would be available to them if necessary. On which point, Ravenhill was then entirely adequate for their needs, with Lansdowne being their clear and obvious preference for the odd big game when they needed greater capacity.

As for the GAA, they were entirely agnostic to the proposal, remembering that Casement/Clones/Croke were considered adequate for their needs at the time, too. Of course if HMG wanted to pay for a big new stadium, then fine, the GAA too would use it if it suited. On which latter point they demanded, successfully, that if it were to be built, it should have a bigger capacity than originally envisaged, of 44k, or even 48k(?). This would have been much bigger than Soccer or Rugby would ever have wanted, and I suspect was required by the GAA to fill a capacity gap between Clones/Casement and Croke.

Meanwhile, the one organisation which was unequivocally in favour of the Maze was the IFA, with their then CEO, Howard Wells, going on the record to express the IFA's clear support from the very start:
(From 2006) https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ifa-gives-backing-to-maze-stadium-proposal-1.768979

(And yes, I'm well aware that this support was Hobson's Choice, with Windsor then on life support in hospital, with a UEFA 'Do Not Resusitate' sign at the foot of the bed)

But if you mean Casement, it was never envisaged by anyone, IFA or supporters, that Soccer would be "sharing" Casement, until the Euro's came into the equation as recently as last October.

And even there, the IFA publicly backed Casement being used to host one of the Groups. Granted, NI fans opposed this, on the basis that if HMG were suddenly to conjure up £100m(?) extra to support Soccer games in a Soccer tournament, then in principle, that extra funding should be used for a Soccer stadium, with the legacy for Soccer which that would provide. (I emphasise "Soccer", since that principle applies were it eg Ravenhill we were talking about, rather than Casement).

But still, I guess it's always easier for Ulster GAA to blame someone else, in order to cover up their own incompetence and vanity.

You say you're not objecting to the GAA having a funded stadium yet you go on and say not the size of the proposed one just a smaller one will do, why shouldn't the Country's largest played sport have the largest stadium.

So long as they meet the same Planning and H&S constraints as every other such project, the GAA may have whatever stadium, of whatever size, they like.
The point here is, who is going to fund it? When this was first proposed, nearly 20 years ago, the GAA itself and all the political parties were entirely happy with their original funding. Which only became a problem when the GAA themselves screwed up their plans for the money over the course of 15 years.

We have been discriminated against for decades, where I live we have 6 GAA clubs within a 3 mile radius and not one Council GAA pitch. I actually done a few CAD Dwgs for a proposed Council GAA pitch and it was ignored and turned from a soccer pitch to a cricket pitch/pavilion.

"Discriminated against" implies that your Sport has been singled out for lesser treatment than others. I would remind you that before the Maze windfall* came into play, when it came to government money, England/Wembley, Scotland/Hampden and Wales/Millennium all received significant funding which was not available to NI/Windsor.

While if you look at Irish League stadia, none of those have ever received anything like the financial support which their GB equivalents received from Lottery funding post-Hillsborough.

Meaning that if the GAA has, indeed, been underfunded by Government, they are hardly alone amongst Sport in NI in that regard.

P.S. Were Stormont to stump up, say, £200m for Casement, that would blow their entire budget for ALL other sports in NI for the next 25 years.

* - Itself shared equally, remember

The money offered is from DCAL but (IMO) you're wrong about the concerts, any Entertainment building or stadium can host an event as long as they get approval from local council and emergency services. They will also liaise with the local residents but it's not a feature you include at planning, its a sports stadium.

Once again, the Maze money was ringfenced for Sport, specifically to provide "Regional" stadia for the three main codes.
The ability to host other, non-sporting events was only ever a bonus. Except that the GAA insisted it needed an all-singing, all-dancing large stadium, even though it only ever envisaged one Sporting event to 32k capacity per annum, for which an alternative was available (Clones).
Why should they be permitted to use Sports funding to move into the wider Events business, esp when such Government funding would give them an unfair (and possibly unlawful) Competitive Advantage over other venues, whether Council owned or private?
I mean, neither Ravenhill nor Windsor was designed with that in mind.

Schools, Hospitals and infrastructure are different departments and will have their own budgets, if they're short they need to go back and get more. I'll happily (if it was my decision) give all the funding up for Casement for a better Health Service and Roads, the real important stuff providing you stop funding for all projects and I mean everything except Health, Hospitals, Infrastructure and Schools but we all know that can't happen.

And if they go back for more and are told: "Sorry, there is no more, the sports boys over in DCAL have already taken it"?

I went on for ages that the fee was closer to £300m for Casement but all I could hear was it's £400m and that was pure speculation from the Unionists & British Government to renege on their promise that the stadium would be built.

Hang on, who did you hear the £400m from? (Genuine question)

And even if s.o. was speculating thus, so what? We know we're talking £300m, later downgraded to a mere £270m, which seems outrageous to me both because the original £62m grant was accepted by all as fair, but also because there can be no justification for spending anything like that for one Ulster Senior Final a year!

Moreover, the British Government, never mind "Unionists" never "promise[d] that the stadium would be built" [sic].

All the Government promised was that £62m would be provided for Ulster GAA to fulfil its promise to its community to build a stadium fit to replace Casement.

When the likes of EG discuss equality, it always comes with the silent caveat that past inequalities must be ignored and not accounted for

Exactly.

Er, as I noted earlier, when the Maze Stadium money was devolved from Westminster to be reallocated by Stormont, all of the parties there agreed that the final distribution was fair and equal.

While the three bodies concerned, IRFU, IFA and GAA, were all satisfied too.

May I take it that you have voiced your concerns to them? No?

For it cannot be that there hasn't been enough time yet for you to make your point before now.

I mean, over the course of 15 years+, you could probably, oh I dunno, build eg a bloody great sports stadium in that time. 

 

[If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.]

Do you know what you should do EG...close your eyes and visualise this stadium in Dundonald and used for something else other than GAA and see if it still tastes as bitter.

And if you were to do the same...........?

I'm not particularly bothered...There was £60m for an ice bowl in dundonald and I wasn't doing a song and dance about that. Windsor Park could have had £500m spent on it for all I care. This scheme has been politicised from day one and because it's a GAA stadium in west Belfast 50% of the North don't want it nor their monies going to fund it. If it was soccer or rugby it would have been built a long time ago and we all know that.

Re your bold, what exactly was it stopped the GAA from building a new Casement at the same time as rugby and soccer?

(Clue: Rank incompetence and vanity on the part of the GAA?)

Unionists keep going on about equal funding for the 3 main sports. That seems fair. Around NI there are hundreds of council pitches devoted to soccer and rugby, mainly soccer. How many council GAA pitches are there in NI - I would guess not more than 10. Every GAA club in the north has their own pitch and grounds all paid for through their own fundraising not costing the public purse a penny. They maintain these pitches and grounds themselves not costing the public purse a penny. So if unionists demand equal funding then it should be equal for council pitches also. So therefore build another few hundred council GAA pitches or possibly sell off a few hundred soccer pitches which should go a long way to helping our health service and public services.

Er, we're talking about the Regional Sports Stadium strategy here, not sports funding generally.

On which former point, it has been agreed throughout all this process, by ALL the parties at Stormont, including when the Sports Minister was from SF or SDLP, that the Maze Stadium money should be allocated £20m to rugby, £62m to soccer and £62m to GAA.

Meanwhile on your more general point, the long and widely accepted principle is that if public money is going to facilities like this, then they should be equally open to all sports/sections of the public.

But as you will know, when the GAA builds its own facilities - and I readily applaud their endeavour and energy in doing so - their usage is confined to GAA sports only. Now of course this must be their right, but asserting such rights brings with it consequences, in this case disqualification from some general sports facilities funding.

I say "some", of course, since GAA clubs are (quite rightly) entitled to apply for other sources of funding - culture, youth, leisure, community etc - as many successfully do.

An example of this was when a well-known GAA-playing Catholic Grammar school near me was building new sports fields, the majority of provision was for GAA pitches, but they also provided some soccer pitches which can be used at weekends etc, and so qualified for full funding from the Dept. of Education.

But you might have worked all that out yourself, had you taken the trouble to apply even a modicum of thought to the issues before posting.

This whole fiasco is a microcosm of what's wrong with the North. Progress delayed by division.
There was an opportunity to have a marquee world leading stadium for all sports that was missed...that was not of the  GAA's making.

One mans "Marquee World Stadium" is anothers "White Elephant".

Let's get back to basic principles. HMG had a huge site which it no longer needed. It hoped that it might attract private development capital - retail, leisure, industry, commerce etc - but none was forthcoming. (I wonder why?)
So they came up with a scheme which would kick-start the process - a multi-sport stadium originally costing £86m(?), which would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together". (Quite how Ulster rugby fans trooping out to a field outside Lisburn on a Friday evening, followed by soccer fans on a Saturday, then GAA fans on Sunday would achieve that is beyond me, but no matter.)

This disregarded three things: 1. None of the three codes was asking for anything like this before someone in Whitehall came up with the idea. 2. The estimated cost soon went up to £140m (and we know how such estimates invariably understate the final cost of such projects). 3. Most importantly, while there was opposition from various Unionists to the whole scheme, it was not the stadium per se, rather it was other aspects of the whole development, chiefly the proposed Museum. And I say "some", because every party on (Unionist-controlled) Lisburn Council supported it, while Edwin Poots was a prominent cheerleader FOR the development. (Guess whose constituency it was in?)

While in any case, the stadium was binned not because of politicians opposition, but because the Civil Servants in the Finance Department at Stormont determined that the stadium could NEVER make money, or even break-even, and so would be a drain on the public purse throughout its entire 50 year(?) lifespan. That much is on the record and indisputable, while it is notable that in all the years since, not one private investor has shown any interest in the site, for any purpose. (Though the RUAS does hold a farm show there for three days a year)

Construction costs have gone up considerably  since £62m proposed in 2011.

And whose fault is that?

Ulster Rugby and the IFA both managed to apply their funding on time and within budget, and if the GAA didn't, it was solely because they chronically mismanaged Casement from the start. Chief amongst their inadequacies was the fact that their proposal(s) failed both to secure Planning Permission in the face of local Residents' opposition meet, or to meet  basic H&S requirements. (This last objection was eventually overridden by a Nationalist DCAL Minister btw).

More pertinently, for its £62m allocation (same as GAA), the IFA decided to use £26m on rebuilding Windsor, then the remaining £36m on renovating smaller, "sub-regional" stadia. (The bulk of this was to go towards The Oval in East Belfast, and the Brandywell in Derry, it being entirely coincidental that the former was in Peter Robinson's Constituency and the latter in Martin McGuinness's). However, Stormont decreed that this secomnd tranche not be released until all three Regional stadia were complete. Meaning the IFA is effectively being punished by construction inflation for the GAA's incompetence. While the GAA is using that inflation to justify a threefold increase in their original funding, but do not recognise any claim by the IFA for similar treatment.

Since 2011 the GAA have incurred considerable costs  and lost revenue opportunities due to delays ( some of which they contributed to)

"Some" of which?
If both the IRFU and IFA could manage to complete their projects satisfactorily, then who else is to blame but the GAA for not managing their own?

I mean, they couldn't even persuade the local residents in Andytown to support what they were doing! 

Neither Kingspan nor Windsor are equipped as the proposed regional marquee Mega concert and conferencing venue. To host major concerts like Croke Park or Aviva does , a large new design is necessary, and the GAA was envisaged to provide this in a new Casement Park .

WRONG!

This money was to come from the Sports Budget at DCAL. That is, for sporting use. And were it to be designed and designated for major Concerts, Events and Conferencing etc, then it would face a number of objections. Amongst these are Planning Permission (again); lack of public transport provision; opposition from existing venues, both publicly-owned and private, with these also liable to being a claim for Unfair Competition. And in principle, why should government money, allocated for sporting purposes, be used by a sports body to make money from non-sporting events? At the very least, any such profits should go back to the government.

Casement park's location in a woefully under resourced and under developed West Belfast , is also a factor as the proposed new stadium would attract new investment, jobs and opportunities for an area that suffered more than most due to the troubles and the 50 years of discrimination that preceded it.

Then why weren't the residents, businesses, community organisations and political representatives all out campaigning and demonstrating in favour of the GAA's various plans then, in order to get it built?

Hell, even Antrim GAA don't appear to be too bothered by this fiasco, at least since they've got over the shock of losing their Social Club.

Anyhow, no-one is objecting to the GAA getting a new stadium at Casement, largely funded by public money. Speaking for myself, I happily accept that the GAA fanbase deserve that, just the same as we've seen with soccer and rugby.

Rather the objections are to the scale and cost of the project, which are FAR in excess of what the GAA reasonably needs. On which point, is there nobody within GAA ranks willing to acknowledge that Ulster GAA's own Events Management Plan itself forecast that there would be only ONE sporting event per year which would be expected to fill a 34k stadium, namely the Senior Ulster Final, which is currently able to held at Clones anyway, and on a VAT-free basis at that?

What would I like to see:

A 28k partially end terraced compact , atmosphere generating venue for Ulster and all-Ireland championship matches , available also for big soccer , rugby and Nfl .

Er, the only games which NI might conceivably be interested in using Casement for would be internationals. And terracing isn't allowed for soccer, meaning your 28k capacity would be reduced to, say 22-24k seating? In which case, why would the IFA pay rent to use Casement for an extra 4-6k seats, away from their traditional home, in a stadium with terrible sightlines for soccer? Never. Going. To. Happen.
And regarding Rugby, Ravenhill is entirely suitable for 90% of Ulster's games as it is, while for the remaining 10%, the IRFU would undoubtedly use the AVIVA, which they part-own.
As for NFL - laughable, simply laughable!

Include it as a concert and conferencing venue with infrastructure to match eg hotel ........ linking in with private sector for funding and enterprise .

Addressed earlier.

A change of attitude from a small number of unionists who to date have been obstructive and gloating over Casements failure.

I've some advice for you, my friend: if the (much) larger number of Unionists don't pay any heed to a few bucketmouths like eg Jamie Bryson, why on earth should the GAA? They're irrelevant to this debate.

Even for unionists surely they can see , that Euros  was a missed opportunity but other opportunities will come around again and their beloved NI still can't host .

The Euro's are nothing to do with "Unionists", it is a purely soccer thing.

And for this soccer fan at least (and not a few others), rather than having an extra £100m(?) coming from Stormont's budget to host five games for which NI might not even qualify, I would much rather see a fraction of that amount devoted eg to providing a much-needed National Football Training Centre, serving the whole of NI. That would provide a much greater legacy for the next 25-50 years than 5 games in June 2028 between the likes of Albania, Norway, Spain or Azerbaijan etc.

Imagine if there  was a venue here to host major world artists and major world sporting events .

"Imagine".

Great idea, you could have John Lennon headlining the opening event.

Oh, wait...

The Irish government will stump up more , and so should the Stormont and Westminster to "level up" investment for NI and west Belfast in particular.

I would be quite happy if Dublin were to stump up the entire £200m(?) shortfall, but as for HMG or Stormont doing so, when our schools, hospitals, roads and other public services are crying out for money?

Sorry.

Your points re German stadiums are well made, surely there's more cost effective budget for this , and the £400m mentioned by some was a figure plucked out of the air to frighten off funders.

True, but it must be for the GAA to come up with a more cost-effective (i.e. realistic) budget, not anyone else.

While yours is the first reference to £400m that I've seen. The more relevant figure is £270m, which has been leaked by the GAA itself.

Let's get it built and actually have something for the whole community here to be proud of . For unionists surely they're envious of every major city in Britain having marquee venues and yet this supposed part of the same uk have nothing even remotely comparable .

This particular Unionist doesn't begrudge the GAA from having the very best stadium they can build from a reasonable amount of Government funding.

And should the finished article not quite meet your dream of providing a world class marquee venue etc, or even a UK class one, then I'll just have to try to find a way of living with that. 

Carsley is enjoying himself anyway.

Why wouldn't he?

40 caps for the Republic....

And was Jack Charlton not entitled to have enjoyed himself when eg ROI beat England 1-0 in 1988? You know, the same Jack Charlton who gained 35 caps for England, the country where he was born, raised and lived virtually all of his life. 

I never seen the penalty claim live, just the replay, did Evan have any of his jersey at the same time?

As that would be my only thinking.

Not sure foreign ref's be them on the pitch or at VAR give a stuff about England so I'm not bought on the corruption thing.

There'd be more whistleblowers claiming that all the ref's in Europe favour England, sounds bizarre when I say that!

While the defender's shirt-pulling clearly caused Ferguson to fall over, the Law is quite unequivocal. That is, if both players are fouling -and Ferguson clearly responded by pushing him - then it cannot be a penalty.

Harsh, mind (imo).