Apple's data centre in Athenry

[Rossfan]

If our leaders had any courage proactively or vision we wouldn't have 8,500 people living in hotels or B&Bs. We wouldn't have thousands of young couples unable to buy houses as builders wait for the next artificial property boom and NAMA sits on thousands of acres of land.
We wouldn't have some of the highest rents in Europe in the empties the State in West Europe.
We wouldn't have greater Dublin choked up with traffic and over development while hundreds of country towns and rural areas are virtually dead.
We'd have good broadband all over the Country.

We may have had no money in the 30s or 50s but we cleared slums, set up Bord na Móna,  ESB,  rural electrification etc etc because someone had vision, proactivity and courage.
All we get now are shiny brochures, action plans but little action,  PR spin etc etc.

[magpie seanie]

Agree 100%. I think up to the 70's the fate of the people was actually prioritised by most politicians. Then we started getting lazy, corrupt and "cute".

[seafoid]

If our leaders had any courage proactively or vision we wouldn't have 8,500 people living in hotels or B&Bs. We wouldn't have thousands of young couples unable to buy houses as builders wait for the next artificial property boom and NAMA sits on thousands of acres of land.
We wouldn't have some of the highest rents in Europe in the empties the State in West Europe.
We wouldn't have greater Dublin choked up with traffic and over development while hundreds of country towns and rural areas are virtually dead.
We'd have good broadband all over the Country.

We may have had no money in the 30s or 50s but we cleared slums, set up Bord na Móna,  ESB,  rural electrification etc etc because someone had vision, proactivity and courage.
All we get now are shiny brochures, action plans but little action,  PR spin etc etc.

We would have jobs where people want to live.
Our pension funds wouldn't be speculation vehicles
The economy would work for people.
We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.
It's not that hard.

After the next crash it wil probably happen anyway. But it would be better to avoid the crash.

[seafoid]

Agree 100%. I think up to the 70's the fate of the people was actually prioritised by most politicians. Then we started getting lazy, corrupt and "cute".

That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.

[armaghniac]

That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.

In those days there were no jobs. Now there are jobs, so some things are done better and many countries would envy this.

But there is no effort to plan for the future, in the 2009-2014 period there was no money to do things, but there was an opportunity to catch up on the planning side of things but nothing whatsoever was done. A good example is the M50, this was equipped in 2009 with gantrys for variable speed limits and possible tolling throughout. But when traffic increased they announced a "feasibility study" on these things, when of course the period from 2009 should have been used for the plan to be ready to go when the traffic increased.

[seafoid]

That was a different economic system where the goal was full employment.
Under the current system the goal is 2% inflation. There is a huge difference.
There is no systematic social housing building under the current system.

In those days there were no jobs. Now there are jobs, so some things are done better and many countries would envy this.

But there is no effort to plan for the future, in the 2009-2014 period there was no money to do things, but there was an opportunity to catch up on the planning side of things but nothing whatsoever was done. A good example is the M50, this was equipped in 2009 with gantrys for variable speed limits and possible tolling throughout. But when traffic increased they announced a "feasibility study" on these things, when of course the period from 2009 should have been used for the plan to be ready to go when the traffic increased.

There were loads of jobs in the 60s and early 70's.  Since then there has been an improvement in the quality of the workforce. But why did so many people in their 20s have to emigrate after the crash? Why do younger workers get paid less? Why did Anglo.cost €60bn.  Because the economic system is unstable. It is unregulated. That is by design.
If we had a system focused on people it would be very different.

https://www.icij.org/investigations/paradise-papers/apples-secret-offshore-island-hop-revealed-by-paradise-papers-leak-icij/

"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland's tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland's national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

[seafoid]

   https://www.ft.com/content/917bc018-c34a-11e7-b2bb-322b2cb39656

   Margrethe Vestager has hit out at technology companies for undermining democracy and allowing "fear" and "greed" to drive anti-competitive behaviour, in some of her strongest criticisms of the industry since taking over as EU competition commissioner.

Ms Vestager singled out Google, Facebook and Apple, saying they cut corners and distort competition by abusing their market dominance.

Speaking at a conference in Lisbon, she added that Europe was "different" from the US in recognising the limitations of free markets.


"We want free markets but we understand the paradox of free markets which is that sometimes we have to intervene. We have to believe that it's not the law of the jungle but the law of democracy that works."

The comments mark a step-up in rhetoric from Ms Vestager following a crackdown in Brussels against corporate tax avoidance.

[Hound]

"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland's tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland's national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way). 

[magpie seanie]

Hadn't heard a thing about that Hound. Astonishing considering the implications.

[seafoid]

"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland's tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland's national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way).

I don't agree, Hound. Apple use tax avoidance to pay huge dividends to the people who own most Apple shares, the richest 1%.
They pay minimal tax. This is a system issue. It is one of the reasons Eurozone and US growth are abysmal. And it is not sustainable.

[blast05]

"The question is whether the Irish economy has become so distorted by its tax regime that nobody knows what is happening on the ground. ... 'We now have an economy so intertwined in international tax and accounting stunts that they bring with them a serious risk.' He said the next reclassification could see an equally dramatic drop in activity.  "
FT:

"Tax experts said it was likely that Apple was taking advantage of the increased generosity of Ireland's tax deductions for intellectual property such as patents and trademarks. They cited as evidence the sudden appearance of close to $270bn of intangible assets in Ireland's national accounts."

It really belongs in the WTF thread.

But if a company buys a big asset for use in their trade, to drive profits in their trade, do you not think they should get a tax deduction for it? Since the invention of corporation tax, companies have received capital allowances for capital expenditure.

This is no different, other than on a much bigger scale and it's for the new e-economy. Apple and others are buying their patents, trademarks etc from havens and bringing them to Ireland.

As usual, the utterly useless business journalists in this country are focusing on sensational headlines rather than real issues. The most substantive issue in the Budget was a new 80% cap on IP capital allowances. How many here can say they read an article explaining the reality of what this does? Or heard an opposition politician talking about it? None I think.

What this means is that companies who spend money buying IP, can only use capital allowances to offset a maximum of 80% of their profits. However, the massive mistake Pascal Donoghue made (that no journalist or opposition politician seemed to notice) was that this only applies to future IP purchases and not to IP already here. So there are companies with first mover advantage who have paid humungous amounts for IP that will pay no Irish tax for a long time. That's utter nonsense tax policy.

Ironically, Apple have been the biggest lobbyists to Donoghue in trying to get him to make the 80% cap apply to all IP, which hopefully he will do before the Finance Act passes (although I have my doubts as there are others lobbying the other way).

Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?

[armaghniac]

Maybe i am missing a point here but why would Apple campaign for the cap to be widened to all IP ?

Perhaps because Apple have moved the old IP elsewhere, but want to bring some new IP?

[Eamonnca1]

We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?

[weareros]

While Apple and co are big tax evaders, it is the rest of the world they are scamming, including the US and Europe. By enabling it, we are benefiting - they are still one of our biggest tax payers and employers and were early investors in Ireland. We cannot however see that and we'll ultimately be the authors of our own misfortune. We are only being squeezed by Europe, US and international media because the tax being avoided is on profits outside our territory. Our tax laws are terrible for the rest of the world. So effing what. If they were good for the world, they would not be in lil old Ireland.

[seafoid]

We wouldn't be part of a so called monetary union without a lender of last resort.

Sorry to nit-pick but isn't the ECB the lender of last resort in the Eurozone?

Who bailed out Anglo and AIB?
Lender of Last Resort does what it says on the tin.