A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

Started by winghalfback, May 27, 2015, 03:16:23 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

michaelg

Quote from: Applesisapples on January 27, 2016, 03:38:07 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:39:03 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 26, 2016, 10:30:52 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 08:36:36 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 26, 2016, 11:03:51 AM
Reading through the posts here one thing is abundantly clear. Nationalists can't even agree on a discussion forum whether a UI is feasible, desirable or likely to come about. It is also quite clear that despite Tony's wish that it could be different there are two defined narratives, identities and cultures in the North one inherently Irish, the other claiming to be British but which in actual fact is regional and confined almost exclusively to the six counties. The fear  in loyalist communities at present is not about the end of the union but the reality that they are now a minority albeit the biggest minority currently in NI but the days of a catholic majority is a lot closer than a UI and with it will come the clamour for more equality fewer flegs and the spread of Irishness. The threat to the union lies there in as loyalism fades and common cause with the ROI leads to closer cooperation then unity is inevitable. How long it will take depends on the approach of the SDLP and SF in leadership of their respective supporters. Unfortunately from a nationalist perspective the SDLP seem quite happy with the status quo and SF have not really shown any vision of how this united country might shape up. There is no consensus with in nationalism and SF can't quite drop the socialist republic which just won't wash with the voters...outside of some working class ghettos or should we say benefit's class ghettos no one actually wants it. It is time for a national conference or discussion to forge a vision that all so called nationalist parties north and south can subscribe to. But don't hold your breath.
What an arrogant post.  With this sort of attitude you will be a long time persuading Unionists that their best interests lie in a UI.
It's true though. What other former colonies do the natives still call themselves British? Gibraltar? Falklands?
No it isn't.  They do not 'claim' to be British.  They live in the UK and hold British passports.  What gives you the right to tell them how they should feel / identify themselves?
I was referring to the culture not the person, they may be or feel that the are ethnically British as is there right but culturally?
Culture is not soley to do with Orangeism and marching bands.  Like it or not, many Unionists feel a close affinity with the rest of UK and consider themselves to be British.  You teliing them that they are not / are wrong, isn't going to make a blind bit of difference.  Nor is it going to persuade them that their future lies in a UI.

armaghniac

Quote from: michaelg on January 27, 2016, 06:36:34 PM
Culture is not soley to do with Orangeism and marching bands.  Like it or not, many Unionists feel a close affinity with the rest of UK and consider themselves to be British.  You teliing them that they are not / are wrong, isn't going to make a blind bit of difference.  Nor is it going to persuade them that their future lies in a UI.

People feeling an affinity with another country is up to themselves. It only becomes objectionable when it finds political expression in having that country rule part of this one  and colonising people who have the normal condition of identifying only with their own country.

As as for telling people things, are Unionists some kind of teenager who when you tell them smoking is stupid still smoke. Is there no moral mature people among them at all?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

michaelg

#542
Quote from: armaghniac on January 27, 2016, 06:48:17 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 27, 2016, 06:36:34 PM
Culture is not soley to do with Orangeism and marching bands.  Like it or not, many Unionists feel a close affinity with the rest of UK and consider themselves to be British.  You teliing them that they are not / are wrong, isn't going to make a blind bit of difference.  Nor is it going to persuade them that their future lies in a UI.

People feeling an affinity with another country is up to themselves. It only becomes objectionable when it finds political expression in having that country rule part of this one  and colonising people who have the normal condition of identifying only with their own country.

As as for telling people things, are Unionists some kind of teenager who when you tell them smoking is stupid still smoke. Is there no moral mature people among them at all?
Unfortunately although you find it objectionable, it is the reality of the situation.  As you also know, under the GFA, the constitutional position of NI will only change when a majority of people on both sides of the border vote in favour of unification.  You wittering on about colonisation etc isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

As for your second comment, it is not even worthy of a response.

armaghniac

Quote from: michaelg on January 27, 2016, 07:14:20 PM
Unfortunately although you find it objectionable, it is the reality of the situation.  As you also know, under the GFA the constitutional position of NI will only change when a majority of people on both sides of the border vote in favour of unification. 

Ah the usual, we won the battle of the Boyne, what we have we hold etc.

QuoteYou wittering on about colonisation etc isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

I notice you avoid any discussion on the matter, but merely engage in avoidance tactics. Not an inch, eh?
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

Maguire01

Quote from: T Fearon on January 26, 2016, 09:50:09 PM
You cannot swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen and similarly aspire to end her Government's rule "throughout the UK?"
A mere technicality, much like legislation from Stormont having to go through royal assent.

andoireabu

Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on January 26, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
@ michaelg

If there was to be a New Ireland, what would have to be in it before you would consider voting yes? (I'm assuming you wouldn't at present so forgive me if I am wrong).  Interesting to get a different perspective on it.
To be honest, if I had to decide between remaining within the UK or moving into a UI, I would opt for the former.  As such, it's difficult to say what would have to be in a 'New Ireland, for me to consider voting yes.
So to look at it from another side. If the referendum was passed and this New Ireland was going to be, what kind of things would you be hoping for in it to make you feel as welcome as possible and not on the outside looking in?
Private Cowboy: Don't shit me, man!
Private Joker: I wouldn't shit you. You're my favorite turd!

michaelg

Quote from: armaghniac on January 27, 2016, 07:23:06 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 27, 2016, 07:14:20 PM
Unfortunately although you find it objectionable, it is the reality of the situation.  As you also know, under the GFA the constitutional position of NI will only change when a majority of people on both sides of the border vote in favour of unification. 

Ah the usual, we won the battle of the Boyne, what we have we hold etc.

QuoteYou wittering on about colonisation etc isn't going to get anybody anywhere.

I notice you avoid any discussion on the matter, but merely engage in avoidance tactics. Not an inch, eh?
In reference to your first point, what has the Battle of the Boyne etc have to do with anything?  I made reference to the GFA, agreed by the majority of people on this island, which lays out how the constitutional position may change in the future. 

With reference to your second point, there is clearly not much point in engaging in discussion with someone who trots out nonsense such as the teenager smoking analogy that you came up with earlier.   

michaelg

Quote from: andoireabu on January 27, 2016, 09:21:51 PM
Quote from: michaelg on January 26, 2016, 10:01:39 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on January 26, 2016, 09:29:13 PM
@ michaelg

If there was to be a New Ireland, what would have to be in it before you would consider voting yes? (I'm assuming you wouldn't at present so forgive me if I am wrong).  Interesting to get a different perspective on it.
To be honest, if I had to decide between remaining within the UK or moving into a UI, I would opt for the former.  As such, it's difficult to say what would have to be in a 'New Ireland, for me to consider voting yes.
So to look at it from another side. If the referendum was passed and this New Ireland was going to be, what kind of things would you be hoping for in it to make you feel as welcome as possible and not on the outside looking in?
A new flag and anthem to start with would help.

general_lee

I'd support a new flag and anthem. One that unionists could relate to

LeoMc

Quote from: general_lee on January 27, 2016, 10:33:24 PM
I'd support a new flag and anthem. One that unionists could relate to
I would want to sees new constitution, a new political structure, new constituency boundaries, new local government powers, a bill of rights and responsibilities, etc. Basically a whole new Country.

general_lee

Quote from: LeoMc on January 27, 2016, 10:39:09 PM
Quote from: general_lee on January 27, 2016, 10:33:24 PM
I'd support a new flag and anthem. One that unionists could relate to
I would want to sees new constitution, a new political structure, new constituency boundaries, new local government powers, a bill of rights and responsibilities, etc. Basically a whole new Country.
I'd agree. I wouldn't necessarily want to "join" the ROI

Keyser soze

I think before any of these happens or are even discussed, NI needs to be made to get up off it's backward economic hole and made to stand on its own two feet. What passes for an economy here just doesn't cut it in the real world.

Rossfan

Quote from: Keyser soze on January 28, 2016, 10:02:20 AM
I think before any of these happens or are even discussed, NI needs to be made to get up off it's backward economic hole and made to stand on its own two feet. What passes for an economy here just doesn't cut it in the real world.
+1.
As for what happens after the referendums(da?) take place.
Well as I've told ye so many times before - most likely there will be an All Ireland confederation with the present 6 and 26 Co areas being autonomous areas with slimmed down versions of Stormont and the Dàil administering certain defined internal matters.
People from the 6 will be able to avail of British citizenship ( as well as Irish) if Britain still exists of course.
We'll have a Confederation flag and anthem - probably a green flag with that red St Patrick's X on it and a nice bland anthem " Our Lovely Island" maybe .
P
Most likely we'll have some kind of mutual friendship Treaty with Britain or England and Scotland - hopefully with a non Aggression provision ::) .
One thing we won't have is a "32 County Socialist Republic" so the Sinners may as well drop that nonsense from their literature now.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

seafoid

Quote from: Rossfan on January 28, 2016, 11:06:54 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on January 28, 2016, 10:02:20 AM
I think before any of these happens or are even discussed, NI needs to be made to get up off it's backward economic hole and made to stand on its own two feet. What passes for an economy here just doesn't cut it in the real world.
+1.
As for what happens after the referendums(da?) take place.
Well as I've told ye so many times before - most likely there will be an All Ireland confederation with the present 6 and 26 Co areas being autonomous areas with slimmed down versions of Stormont and the Dàil administering certain defined internal matters.
People from the 6 will be able to avail of British citizenship ( as well as Irish) if Britain still exists of course.
We'll have a Confederation flag and anthem - probably a green flag with that red St Patrick's X on it and a nice bland anthem " Our Lovely Island" maybe .
P
Most likely we'll have some kind of mutual friendship Treaty with Britain or England and Scotland - hopefully with a non Aggression provision ::) .
One thing we won't have is a "32 County Socialist Republic" so the Sinners may as well drop that nonsense from their literature now.
We won't  have a 32 county neoliberal republic either...
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

Hopefully a caring Social democratic one which Scotland appears to be developing into.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM