Casement Park in line for major overhaul - 40,000 all seater Stadium.

[snatter]

If the site's big enough, the  stadium is future proof and can be built to the required capacity. The original tender docs for this project specified a 40k, fully covered, fully seated stadium.

Casement can never deliver that. And what would be built at Casement would realistically never be expandable.

I'd prefer something like Thomond Park, where the main stands (down the sidelines!!) are built big, and if there's not enough money to do the whole thing properly, allow enough room to build behind goal stands later.

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.punchconsulting.com/assets/images/galleries/thomond_park/(3).jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.punchconsulting.com/our-projects/leisure-hotels/thomond-park-rugby-stadium-limerick/&h=500&w=1395&tbnid=Toe0fAqiUm-jNM:&docid=1i7hu_nvym4FFM&ei=x5biVuDmGcv8abT5m5AM&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwig5tHJr7jLAhVLfhoKHbT8BsIQMwgeKAEwAQ

[general_lee]

Well surely if the new plans feature a downsized capacity the stadium can be built? Why the need to expand? Mid 30k is sufficient - surely if need be they can convert seating areas to standing to increase capacity? And anything above that - Croke Park can be used. Of course the site is restrained but too much has been pumped into it for there to be a u turn - it'd be a scandal and no politician would back it

[illdecide]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

[johnneycool]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

Who peddled the idea that it was Casement or nowt? Was it the Ulster Council?

AFAIK the money was ring fenced for a one off stadium development, where that was was to be a decision for the Ulster Council..

[BluestackBoy]

Well surely if the new plans feature a downsized capacity the stadium can be built? Why the need to expand? Mid 30k is sufficient - surely if need be they can convert seating areas to standing to increase capacity? And anything above that - Croke Park can be used. Of course the site is restrained but too much has been pumped into it for there to be a u turn - it'd be a scandal and no politician would back it

Mid 30k is not sufficent, Clones can hold that number already.

As for building it simply because a shedload of money has already been spent, have we learned nothing?

[illdecide]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

Who peddled the idea that it was Casement or nowt? Was it the Ulster Council?

AFAIK the money was ring fenced for a one off stadium development, where that was was to be a decision for the Ulster Council..

That side of things Johnney i'm not sure on TBH.

[snatter]

Well surely if the new plans feature a downsized capacity the stadium can be built? Why the need to expand? Mid 30k is sufficient - surely if need be they can convert seating areas to standing to increase capacity? And anything above that - Croke Park can be used. Of course the site is restrained but too much has been pumped into it for there to be a u turn - it'd be a scandal and no politician would back it

No, they can't just slap a roof on the uncovered stand - it's too close to surrounding housing, specifically the apartments blocks on the Andersonstown Road. They had to drop that proposal as part of the planning permission application.

It's not a question of expanding. The original tender was for a 40k stadium. The only reason capacity keeps getting downwardly revised is that the site is to small. The capacity was dropped to appease residents.

I note you haven't addressed any other points.

As for it would be a scandal. Are you serious? It's a scandal already, and one that costs millions each year they persist with the half baked notion of spending once in a century funding on a third rate stadium. On a fifth rate site.

The GAA should never have run with Casement. If they'd picked any other site, big enough for a fully covered stadium, properly designed to maximise views for most spectators, and with enough surrounding space for safe dispersal, it would have been finished by now. Think about that this summer with rain pissing down, while rugby and soccer are sitting pretty.

[snatter]

I'll tell u what i know... there seems to be a few guys on here that are an expert on Stadium Design and know the RED GUIDE inside and out. I have spoke with a few consultants regarding Casement and the capacity and room for capacity was not a big issue, there was/is room to build a 45K seater stadium but local residents complained about the size of the stands over shadowing their homes so GAA and Designers decided to reduce the size of the stands so it wouldn't have as big an impact as previous design. The biggest factor was the egress time, this is the total time in which all spectators can, in normal conditions, leave an area of viewing accommodation and enter into a free flowing exit system. It does not include the time taken to negotiate the entire exit route. This must happen within 8 minutes of the announcement but Casement Park cannot accommodate therefore the free flowing exit system is inadequate.

Now the strange thing is when the old ground was full to capacity (think it was 32,600) it probably didn't comply with the RED GUIDE safety measures either but there was never a word about it, the best thing going for Casement was that it was/is GAA and there is no segregation with their fans. If it was too accommodate soccer with segregation then it potentially could have been a disaster if trouble was to flare up, gladly we never experienced anything.

Regarding the funding and if it's available to another venue I'm not 100% sure on who said what but i was always under the impression from the Maze was turned down that it was Casement Park or nowt...No other ground/venue was to be considered and if Casement didn't happen we (GAA) lost the grant.

Who peddled the idea that it was Casement or nowt? Was it the Ulster Council?

AFAIK the money was ring fenced for a one off stadium development, where that was was to be a decision for the Ulster Council..

That side of things Johnney i'm not sure on TBH.

Fecking hell. Why does this myth, this utter untruth still keep floating around.
Read slowly:

THE FUNDING CAME WITH A CONDITION THAT IT WAS TO ONLY BE USED TO BUILD ONE STADIUM.

THERE WERE NO CONDITIONS ABOUT WHERE THAT STADIUM HAD TO BE.

ANYONE THAT SAYS DIFFERENTLY IS TALKING OUT OF THEIR SPHINCTER.

[StephenC]

Snatter lording the game here.

[Walter Cronc]

Casement is for concerts lads. Thats the driver here. Not GAA!

[snatter]

I think an upgrade of a stadium in Armagh/Tyrone is best, but can't see a brand new stadium being built. When was the last time a GAA stadium was built from scratch? I don't remember any.

Has no one been paying attention to the this the whole way through.

Ziggy said it earlier, this money has been ring fenced for Casement. It cannot and will not be directed to another project anywhere else.

Its Casement of bust I'm afraid.

Incorrect.

The original restrictions still stand, namely that all three sports are to spend the money on one stadium development each.

There have never been any restrictions on whether the stadiums should be refurbishments, greenfield sites, or ties to any given location.

The decision to spend the money on Casement was the GAA's, and the GAA's alone. After receiving (flawed) advice from an unnamed consultancy in 2010 that the site could accommodate a 40k stadium.

Bump

[snatter]

One more bit of sense before I leave my desk.

There's nothing more miserable than sitting in the rain.
Especially if you've paid a decent amount to sit in a joke of a brand new £75 Million Irish stadium that is only 3/4 roofed.

If, God forbid, we do end up with thousands having to be accommodated in the uncovered A'town Rd stand, surely it would be better for the poor drenched souls to be allowed to *stand* rather than sit.

Additionally, I think the GAA & architects should look at these RAIL SEATS that

1. allow safe standing
2. allow more fans to be accommodated in the same space.

See this great site for technical details:

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/the-case-for-safe-standing/case-for-3

For every 40 seated fans, you can get 72 safely standing fans instead!!!!!!!!!

If both the stands behind the goals had these RAIL SEATS, then it might be possible that the 37k capacity could be met by having a shallower A'town rd stand, that could just allow some form of ROOF to be built over it.

This has got to be worth examining.
If anybody has contacts / influence over the GAA project team or architects, then please forward this to them.

The GAA shouldn't get hung up about having an all seated capacity, when a partially standing capacity could deliver a roof over fans' heads instead.

I do agree about safe standing though - another old psot

[snatter]

Thanks for the very thorough and articulated response Snatter. Regarding the minimum daylight impact standards surely the residents on the other three sides are closer than the apartment block along the Anderstown road?

A deep stand behind the goals can improve atmosphere (Borussia Dortmunds ground an example) but to not cover the ground entirely is madness.

I agree on Musgrave Park but surely that opens a can of worms as it's in South Belfast or is it still technically West?

The A'town Stand roof would have to be much higher than the others becasue it is (embarassingly) the deepest stand.
It is the deepest stand becaue that's the only way that the seated capacity can be pushed up to 37k (as opposed to the 40k that was tendered for).

Below is a link that illustrates just how high the A'town Rd stand roof would had to have been.

See post 1 at http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=1563744, published at a Community Consultation Event held in November 2012.

--

In Belfast's sectarian micro-geography, Musgrave Park would be technically South rather than West, but at only 250 metres away, does it matter?
The greater commercial opportunites would create far more job opportunities for the people of West Belfast.
Transport links (esp to rail) are better as well.

There you go, the roof that can never be. Over what is laughably the deepest stand in te stadium.

If anybody can't work out what the optimal viewing circle is all about, just look at Thomond Park photo earlier. In the normal world, stadium designers put the deepest sstands along the sides, and even have covex stands, to maximise the numebr of spectators with the best possible views.

[snatter]

This is stupid.

You're not anti-GAA if you're against the stadium.

If anything, you're pro-GAA, because the current plans are clearly not the best way to spend a once in a century windfall of £70million.

The site is simply too small and constrained.

The big clue is the Andytown Rd stand with no roof.

If the site were bigger........ there would be greater distance from residents and we'd be able to get a taller building with all four stands having roofs.

If the site were bigger........  the budget would be enough to deliver a proper fully covered stadium. We wouldn't have to sink so many millions into underground concrete bunkers for car parking and ancillary facilities that would otherwise be built at ground level.

If the site were bigger........  the crowds could exit safely from the stadium and we wouldn't force the people of West Belfast to be held hostage on match days by closing one of Belfast's arterial routes, the Andytown Road. Or close down the new Belfast Rapid Transport system that is due to go down the Andytown Road.

If the site were bigger........  we would get the proper 40k, fully covered, fully seated stadium that this project was meant to provide. Not the 38k, 3/4 covered mutant that they're trying to peddle now.

If the site were bigger........  the long term running costs of the stadium would be cheaper, as we'd be able to hold far more non-sporting events such as concerts to cover future running costs.

If the site were bigger........  the stadium could be built using the near universal bowl stadium design that allows more bars, restaurants, conference facilities, etc to be built. Again decreasing long term running costs. The architects themselves have admitted that they couldn't do the optimal bowl design, or provide a roof at the Andytown Rd side because the site is too constrained.

If the site were bigger........  the deepest stand wouldn't be behind the Andytown goals, but would be in the main stands along each side, allowing more people to get optimal views, not substandard ones behind the goals.


But the site isn't bigger.....
It's time to take the funding elsewhere and build it on a site that is big enough.

Fecking hell. Three years later and not a fecking thing of any worth has changed since. I'll be back again to post the blindingly obvious again next year.

[snatter]

The green light may only be 3 weeks away. Days really!

perhaps,  but just watch Poots and co throwing every possible delay against it at the planning stage.
For an insight, just look at how they delayed a decision for the Bryansford, County Down application.

I hate to say I told you so. But I did. Panned out pretty much as predicted. From 2010. The site that's too small made it easy for them.