British State Collusion

[Farrandeelin]

Absolutely nothing new, although it's handy to collect it all in one place in case anyone is under any illusions about the scale of things - it wasn't a few bad apples, the whole barrel was rotten. Ken Maginnis was funny, although not in a haha kind of way. He was so chuffed at how he managed (perhaps in his own mind) to bring the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos that I thought he might eat himself on camera, but then his Col Sanders-style face went puce when it was suggested that there was collusion like, uh, bringing the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos. And I must confess to a warped feeling of admiration for Michael Mates for having the balls to come on camera to defend the policy, or lack of it as he would have it. He's a hypocrite, but I think he knows he's a hypocrite.

So every single member of the security forces at the time of the war / conflict / troubles was involved in collusion?

So that's the standard?

Not the standard at all, nor condoning the actions of those involved.  Simply saying that the whole barrell was not, as the poster stated, rotten.

The others were in the system, knowing that it was rotten.

How do you know this?  Have you spoken to many serving security forces members from the time?

I'd imagine they were clued in would they not be?

[michaelg]

Absolutely nothing new, although it's handy to collect it all in one place in case anyone is under any illusions about the scale of things - it wasn't a few bad apples, the whole barrel was rotten. Ken Maginnis was funny, although not in a haha kind of way. He was so chuffed at how he managed (perhaps in his own mind) to bring the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos that I thought he might eat himself on camera, but then his Col Sanders-style face went puce when it was suggested that there was collusion like, uh, bringing the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos. And I must confess to a warped feeling of admiration for Michael Mates for having the balls to come on camera to defend the policy, or lack of it as he would have it. He's a hypocrite, but I think he knows he's a hypocrite.

So every single member of the security forces at the time of the war / conflict / troubles was involved in collusion?

So that's the standard?

Not the standard at all, nor condoning the actions of those involved.  Simply saying that the whole barrell was not, as the poster stated, rotten.

The others were in the system, knowing that it was rotten.

How do you know this?  Have you spoken to many serving security forces members from the time?

I'd imagine they were clued in would they not be?

I would imagine that your average Constable on the ground would have known f**k all about it.  Many would have been trying to get on with the job of being a Police Officer, which is difficult enough without the fear of being shot in the back as you carried out your work.

[Rossfan]

I would imagine that your average Constable on the ground would have known f**k all about it.  Many would have been trying to get on with the job of being a Police Officer, which is difficult enough without the fear of being shot in the back as you carried out your work.

Which of course wasn't happening in a vacuum but was the awful inevitable consequence of what was visited on 1 Community from 1922 onwards.

[michaelg]

I would imagine that your average Constable on the ground would have known f**k all about it.  Many would have been trying to get on with the job of being a Police Officer, which is difficult enough without the fear of being shot in the back as you carried out your work.

Which of course wasn't happening in a vacuum but was the awful inevitable consequence of what was visited on 1 Community from 1922 onwards.

I doubt we will agree on this.  In my mind, however, I find it difficult to see how you could justify shooting fellow Irishmen in this way.

[Oraisteach]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

[michaelg]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

Think what you like.  Very simplistic to tar everyone with the same brush. 

[Gaffer]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

Any of those who were involved in illegal activity aren't going to mouth off to all their colleagues ! 

[theticklemister]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

Any of those who were involved in illegal activity aren't going to mouth off to all their colleagues !

but when ye go in to pick up yer SLR to go on patrol and it's not there, ye begin to ask questions

[Oraisteach]

That's my point, Tickle.  There's no possible way that the average police officer would not know that weapons were mysteriously flying off the racks without knowing or at least wondering where they were going.  They were therefore complicit through silence, in my view, or else they were as obtuse as the Keystone Kops.  I don't know how many rotten apples there were in the RUC barrel, but it was certainly way more than a handful.  And given their track record for and habitual lying over the years, you'll forgive my skepticism.  I recall in particular the speed at which weapons were cleaned after the murder of John Gallagher in Armagh, early in the Troubles.  That was an attempted cover-up.  As for the disappearing weapons that strangely found themselves in Loyalist hands, I suppose it's a case of RUC them, RU don't. Most posters on here are probably familiar with it, but Lethal Allies is a useful and eye-opening read about the breadth of collusion.

[johnneycool]

Absolutely nothing new, although it's handy to collect it all in one place in case anyone is under any illusions about the scale of things - it wasn't a few bad apples, the whole barrel was rotten. Ken Maginnis was funny, although not in a haha kind of way. He was so chuffed at how he managed (perhaps in his own mind) to bring the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos that I thought he might eat himself on camera, but then his Col Sanders-style face went puce when it was suggested that there was collusion like, uh, bringing the SAS in to engage in some extra-judicial murdering of a few Provos. And I must confess to a warped feeling of admiration for Michael Mates for having the balls to come on camera to defend the policy, or lack of it as he would have it. He's a hypocrite, but I think he knows he's a hypocrite.

So every single member of the security forces at the time of the war / conflict / troubles was involved in collusion?

No, but a good few turned a blind eye to it, there weren't too many whistle blowers, even now coming out of the ranks of the RUC/UDR/Army.

[Rossfan]

I would imagine that your average Constable on the ground would have known f**k all about it.  Many would have been trying to get on with the job of being a Police Officer, which is difficult enough without the fear of being shot in the back as you carried out your work.

Which of course wasn't happening in a vacuum but was the awful inevitable consequence of what was visited on 1 Community from 1922 onwards.

I doubt we will agree on this.  In my mind, however, I find it difficult to see how you could justify shooting fellow Irishmen in this way.

Never said I justified it. Simply pointing out that it was the inevitable consequences of the type of set up that existed in the 6 Cos from 1922 onwards.

[general_lee]

Of course the whole of the RUC knew fine rightly. You'd be some dose not to notice. Doesn't necessarily make them all complicit though does it? Plenty had unionist/loyalist leanings of which no doubt descended into outright cooperating/colluding with loyalists. I'm sure the of the decent RUC officers very few were willing to become whistleblowers for obvious reasons, can you really blame them?

[deiseach]

Of course the whole of the RUC knew fine rightly. You'd be some dose not to notice. Doesn't necessarily make them all complicit though does it? Plenty had unionist/loyalist leanings of which no doubt descended into outright cooperating/colluding with loyalists. I'm sure the of the decent RUC officers very few were willing to become whistleblowers for obvious reasons, can you really blame them?

No, you couldn't blame them. But that's the point about the whole barrel being rotten. There wasn't a single part of the force that wasn't touched by the blight. I'm sure there were plenty of members of the RUC who, in another time and another place, would have made top-notch Dixon of Dock Green-type bobbies. But it was not another time and it was not another place.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

So, Michael, we're in the land of imagination.  You imagine that the average policeman was oblivious to the goings-on.  I, on the other hand, don't buy into that Pollyanna wishful thinking.  With weaponry vanishing at an alarming rate, for example, I imagine than a good few ordinary constables had probably heard of this, had a fairly accurate idea of where the weapons were going, and thought it best to let sleeping dogs lie (as in not tell the truth).  I guess that years of listening to deceit and cover-ups have fostered in me a healthy cynicism, I imagine.

Was the issue of missing weapons not a UDR one more than RUC?

To be frank, it's hard to discuss this with such polarised people as Northerners.  Everyone is very one-eyed about themmuns.

If we take the Smithwick Inquiry definition of collusion then most UDR men and many RUC officers were guilty of collusion.  However, those that applauded Smithwick are the same ones who will deny the facts presented about state collusion.

There had to be a police force and they were in a difficult position, particularly as State policy was to be "hands off" to one side for such a long time.  Creating the UDR was a bad, bad idea.  Once things kicked off there was nothing more likely than it becoming a Unionist militia.  To me, that is exactly what happened.  I doubt you will find another regiment with as many criminal convictions in the British Army (and that only accounts for those that were caught).  The fact that so much equipment such as weapons and uniforms went missing and so many within didn't even hide their association means that any subsequent recruits have to be deemed colluding.

/Jim.

[general_lee]

Of course the whole of the RUC knew fine rightly. You'd be some dose not to notice. Doesn't necessarily make them all complicit though does it? Plenty had unionist/loyalist leanings of which no doubt descended into outright cooperating/colluding with loyalists. I'm sure the of the decent RUC officers very few were willing to become whistleblowers for obvious reasons, can you really blame them?

No, you couldn't blame them. But that's the point about the whole barrel being rotten. There wasn't a single part of the force that wasn't touched by the blight. I'm sure there were plenty of members of the RUC who, in another time and another place, would have made top-notch Dixon of Dock Green-type bobbies. But it was not another time and it was not another place.

I don't disagree that the whole of the RUC was poisoned by virtue of the manner in which it operated. I guess it was just a poor set of circumstances in which to pursue a career if you were a non-OO aligned/unionist/loyalist sympathiser. I read about a former Down GAA player and it beggars belief how he ever decided to join the police back then.