British State Collusion

[orangeman]

British Justice once again. It's about time this vile bitch was put on a boat and fucked off for good. About two weeks after stating that there is too much focus on the role of the british state during the conflict, tory secretary of state Teresa Villiers has declined to appoint an Independent Panel to look into the Ballymurphy Masscare, carried out by the Parachute Regiment just months before Bloody Sunday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27199485

The victims:

Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Fr Hugh Mullan (38), a Priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.
Daniel Teggart (44), shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets allegedly entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.
John Laverty (20) shot twice at top of the Whiterock Road.
Joseph Corr (43) were shot multiple times at a separate point at the top of the Whiterock Road
John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside a Catholic church
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.

Why focus of Theresa ?. There were plenty more like her in her postiton who did the same thing since the time of the incident.

Ballymurphy was horrific in its brutality and it wasn't isolated incident either.

On the one hand the left hand can't be appealing for enquiries whilst the right is arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on.

I don't for one minute think Teresa Villiers is the only bad apple but as of today she is the Secretary of State and it is she who only around two weeks ago, essentially publicly stated the British policy of cover up. Her contributions to life here since taking up her role have been one of two things: pointless or dangerous. To quote Jude Collins: "Bend an ear, Teresa: all killing of innocent people is  cruel and barbarous, but when such acts are perpetrated by the law's custodians it clearly deserves maximum attention. What you're calling for is less. But maybe I'm forgetting you are the British Secretary of State."

And personally, I can't be accused of "appealing for enquiries whilst arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on". Approximately 25,000 republicans went through prisons here. Only four members of the British state forces have ever been jailed for murder during the conflict (each of thes convicted murderers were released early, reinstated into the state forces and handed guns). Britain has a lot to lose if the truth ever comes out compared to anybody else. As far as I'm concerned, let resilient families like those in Ballymurphy keep turning the screw on Britain for as long as it takes and let Britain foot the bill for as many enquiries as it takes, to get some truth and some justice finally.

Do you really believe that Britain really gives a shit about what the Paras or any of the rest of their killers, state sponsored or otherwise did here, up on 40 years ago ?.

If they're forced to they'll make a bit of an apology and move on.

They've done plenty bad and much worse since Ballymurphy.

You're spot on however - the Ballymurphy families do deserve justice and truth. It's in short supply if you're going looking it off the Brits. Most will end up disappointed.

[Orior]

British Justice once again. It's about time this vile bitch was put on a boat and fucked off for good. About two weeks after stating that there is too much focus on the role of the british state during the conflict, tory secretary of state Teresa Villiers has declined to appoint an Independent Panel to look into the Ballymurphy Masscare, carried out by the Parachute Regiment just months before Bloody Sunday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27199485

The victims:

Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Fr Hugh Mullan (38), a Priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.
Daniel Teggart (44), shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets allegedly entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.
John Laverty (20) shot twice at top of the Whiterock Road.
Joseph Corr (43) were shot multiple times at a separate point at the top of the Whiterock Road
John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside a Catholic church
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.

Why focus of Theresa ?. There were plenty more like her in her postiton who did the same thing since the time of the incident.

Ballymurphy was horrific in its brutality and it wasn't isolated incident either.

On the one hand the left hand can't be appealing for enquiries whilst the right is arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on.

I don't for one minute think Teresa Villiers is the only bad apple but as of today she is the Secretary of State and it is she who only around two weeks ago, essentially publicly stated the British policy of cover up. Her contributions to life here since taking up her role have been one of two things: pointless or dangerous. To quote Jude Collins: "Bend an ear, Teresa: all killing of innocent people is  cruel and barbarous, but when such acts are perpetrated by the law's custodians it clearly deserves maximum attention. What you're calling for is less. But maybe I'm forgetting you are the British Secretary of State."

And personally, I can't be accused of "appealing for enquiries whilst arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on". Approximately 25,000 republicans went through prisons here. Only four members of the British state forces have ever been jailed for murder during the conflict (each of thes convicted murderers were released early, reinstated into the state forces and handed guns). Britain has a lot to lose if the truth ever comes out compared to anybody else. As far as I'm concerned, let resilient families like those in Ballymurphy keep turning the screw on Britain for as long as it takes and let Britain foot the bill for as many enquiries as it takes, to get some truth and some justice finally.

I tend to agree with Orangeman. So rather than calling for more enquiries, I would prefer if we called it quits. This also means the unionists have to stop trying to take the high moral ground and complaining about terrorists in Government or 'not pursued' letters and so on and so forth.

[Nally Stand]

British Justice once again. It's about time this vile bitch was put on a boat and fucked off for good. About two weeks after stating that there is too much focus on the role of the british state during the conflict, tory secretary of state Teresa Villiers has declined to appoint an Independent Panel to look into the Ballymurphy Masscare, carried out by the Parachute Regiment just months before Bloody Sunday.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27199485

The victims:

Francis Quinn (19), shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Fr Hugh Mullan (38), a Priest, shot by a sniper while going to the aid of a wounded man.
Joan Connolly (50), shot as she stood opposite the army base.
Daniel Teggart (44), shot fourteen times. Most of the bullets allegedly entered his back as he lay injured on the ground.
Noel Phillips (20), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Joseph Murphy (41), shot as he stood opposite the army base.
Edward Doherty (28), shot while walking along Whiterock Road.
John Laverty (20) shot twice at top of the Whiterock Road.
Joseph Corr (43) were shot multiple times at a separate point at the top of the Whiterock Road
John McKerr (49), shot by unknown attackers while standing outside a Catholic church
Paddy McCarthy (44) got into a confrontation with a group of soldiers. One of them allegedly put an empty gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger. McCarthy suffered a heart-attack and died shortly thereafter.

Why focus of Theresa ?. There were plenty more like her in her postiton who did the same thing since the time of the incident.

Ballymurphy was horrific in its brutality and it wasn't isolated incident either.

On the one hand the left hand can't be appealing for enquiries whilst the right is arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on.

I don't for one minute think Teresa Villiers is the only bad apple but as of today she is the Secretary of State and it is she who only around two weeks ago, essentially publicly stated the British policy of cover up. Her contributions to life here since taking up her role have been one of two things: pointless or dangerous. To quote Jude Collins: "Bend an ear, Teresa: all killing of innocent people is  cruel and barbarous, but when such acts are perpetrated by the law's custodians it clearly deserves maximum attention. What you're calling for is less. But maybe I'm forgetting you are the British Secretary of State."

And personally, I can't be accused of "appealing for enquiries whilst arguing that we should all forget about the past and move on". Approximately 25,000 republicans went through prisons here. Only four members of the British state forces have ever been jailed for murder during the conflict (each of thes convicted murderers were released early, reinstated into the state forces and handed guns). Britain has a lot to lose if the truth ever comes out compared to anybody else. As far as I'm concerned, let resilient families like those in Ballymurphy keep turning the screw on Britain for as long as it takes and let Britain foot the bill for as many enquiries as it takes, to get some truth and some justice finally.

I tend to agree with Orangeman. So rather than calling for more enquiries, I would prefer if we called it quits. This also means the unionists have to stop trying to take the high moral ground and complaining about terrorists in Government or 'not pursued' letters and so on and so forth.

The problem with "calling it quits" is that, aside from the obvious (i.e. the lack of justice for state victims more so than for any other victims), it will allow a history to be written ion stone which says that this was simply a religious/sectarian conflict, that it was started by the IRA, and that the British state were just the unfortunate referee. All of which are total lies and all of which are what many on both sides of the Irish Sea would love us all to believe.

The only time I would even consider an end to enquiries would be if the British state followed the IRA's lead and publicly admitted that it was a (highly) active protagonist and apologised to all it's victims and accepted the level of collusion it was involved in. I could not accept a scenario where it would be left that they should be allowed to tell the history of this conflict whereby they were a mere referee. Since I don't see that happening any time soon, then as far as I'm concerned, families like those in Ballymurphy who do want enquiries, deserve wholehearted support.

[deiseach]

Individuals can make a difference, especially individual politicians. When it comes to comparisons with the Hillsborough report, Theresa Villiers is adopting the attitude that Tony Blair took - "what's the point?" Thankfully the Hillsborough families had Andy Burnham to provide an answer to that. Who will be Andy Burnham for the Ballymurphy families?

[Rossfan]

As we approach the 40th anniversary of the worst case of mass murder to occur in the 26 Cos I see that the families of some of those murdered are going to sue the British Government.
I hope they or their legal people can take it as far as they have to to show up the hypocrisy of the British Govt. who are suing Libya on behalf of the "more important victims".

[Nally Stand]

Letter in the Examiner a few days back:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/viewpoints/yourview/time-for-truth-on-1974-bombings-268334.html#.U3HSBY66m6Q.facebook

This Friday will be the 40th anniversary of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, in which 34 people were killed, including a pregnant woman and her unborn child, as well as a family of four (a four-month-old baby, her 18-month-old sister and their parents).

The bombings caused maximum carnage on Dublin's busiest day and at its busiest time — rush hour, Friday, between 5.30pm and 6pm. Three, massive bombs went off without warning, and a further bomb, a diversion to allow those responsible to escape, exploded a short while later in the border town of Monaghan.

This was the biggest mass murder in the history of the Irish State. The Taoiseach, Liam Cosgrave, said in the Dáil a few days after the bombings: "It was, without exception, the worst single outrage in these islands, since the end of the Second World War."

In fact, in terms of human casualties, it has been the worst single atrocity of the Troubles. However, this atrocity has been brushed under the carpet by our political establishment.

Those in power at the time failed to bring those responsible to justice and all investigations were wound down in weeks, without any credible explanation or follow-up.

Only in recent years, as a result of efforts by the families and friends of the victims, has any effort been made to revisit the events.

However, these efforts fall far short of what is required by any democratic regime that prioritises the protection of its citizens.

In 1999, the Barron inquiry, headed by Justice Henry Barron, was established to examine the bombings. This inquiry, while limited in scope, revealed extremely worrying facts, including the discovery that all files had simply disappeared from the Department of Justice.

While it may seem inconceivable that these files have vanished, they are apparently the only files missing from that period, so no effective efforts have been made to get to the bottom of this serious breach in State security.

In his report, Judge Barron also noted that the Government of the day "showed little interest in pursuing those responsible for the attacks".

The failure of our political establishment to pursue this matter is one of the greatest political scandals in the history of the State. Senior politicians, in power at the time, displayed scant regard for their duties and also little concern for the families of the victims.

In 1981, Cosgrave refused to attend an Oireachtas sub-committee discussing the issue, saying that he had retired from public life.

He may have retired from public life, on a generous State pension, but he still had a duty to account for his time in office. Similarly, Paddy Cooney, Justice Minister at the time of the bombings, challenged the finding of the Barron Report. He also, has a duty to help uncover the mystery of the files missing from his department.

Many of the victims of that terrible day were young people. These murders need to be given the attention they deserve, and their families and loved ones deserve justice and the truth.

If abuse of the penalty points system and other, less serious issues, can be the focus of such massive political and media attention, then surely a failure, and possible cover-up, by the State, relating to the loss of so many innocent lives, is deserving of similar attention.

Patricia McKenna
Iona Road
Glasnevin
Dublin

[Franko]

I can't believe this isn't getting more attention...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715

British government authorised use of torture methods in NI in early 1970s

The British government authorised the use of torture methods in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s, an RTÉ documentary has revealed.

The finding was contained in a memo obtained by RTÉ's Investigation Unit.

The programme alleged the practice was carried out on 14 Catholic men after they were interned in 1971.

'The Torture Files' contained correspondence sent by the then Home Secretary Merlyn Rees to the Prime Minister James Callaghan in March 1977.

The memo detailed a meeting between the Attorney General of the Republic of Ireland and his UK counterpart.

'Political decision'

Mr Rees states in the letter that it was his "view (confirmed by Brian Faulkner before his death [NI's prime minister at the time]) that the decision to use methods of torture in Northern Ireland in 1971/72 was taken by ministers - in particular Lord Carrington, then secretary of state for defence."

"If at any time methods of torture are used in Northern Ireland contrary to the view of the government of the day, I would agree that individual policemen or solders should be prosecuted or disciplined; but in the particular circumstances of 1971/72, a political decision was taken," Mr Rees stated in his letter.

"I do not believe that the Irish government understand the nature of the situation in 1971/72 - a situation which, to his credit, Mr Heath (Edward Heath, the then prime minster) ended."

In August 1971, in the wake of escalating violence in Northern Ireland, Brian Faulkner introduced a new law giving the authorities the power to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists without trial (internment).

The law took effect on 9 August and during the next three days, 343 Catholics were arrested.

Twenty-one people died during the three days of unrest - 17 were shot by the British Army, 11 of whom were shot in the Ballymurphy area of west Belfast.

Those arrested were first brought to detention camps in Army bases - within two days more than 100 had been released - the rest were interned.

A dozen men were selected, hooded and flown by helicopter to a secret location, believed to be at Ballykelly airbase, County Londonderry.

Two more men later joined the others - they became known as the so-called Hooded Men who had been selected for what the Army termed "deep interrogation".

They claimed they were beaten and subjected to what were called the five techniques, which included food and sleep deprivation and being subjected to very loud noise for long periods.

A BBC Radio Ulster documentary in 2012 also revealed claims the British Army had used a form of torture known as water boarding in NI 40 years ago.

The five techniques the men were subjected to were later banned by the prime minister at the time, Edward Heath.

In December 1971, Ireland lodged a case against the United Kingdom government, alleging it breached the European Convention on Human Rights on torture, discrimination and the right to life.

Degrading treatment

The first stage of the process was an investigation by the European Human Rights Commission following the complaint.

In 1976, it ruled that the British government was guilty of torture and inhumane and degrading treatment.

Ireland, armed with the commission's finding, referred the case upwards to the European Court of Human Rights for judgment.

In 1978, the European court ruled that while the five techniques amounted to inhumane and degrading treatment, they did not constitute torture.

Patrick Corrigan, director of Amnesty International in Northern Ireland, said the revelations in the RTÉ documentary underscored "the need for a comprehensive means of dealing with our troubled past".

He said the 'The Torture Files' had further alleged that the UK government did not disclose relevant evidence to the European Court of Human Rights, in its defence of the case.

"These latest allegations that the UK government misled the European Court of Human Rights in the 'hooded men' case are deeply worrying," he said.

"The revelations underscore the need for a comprehensive means of dealing with our troubled past, and the need for all parties to come clean about their role in human rights violations and abuses."


**Edit... There may be a more appropriate thread for this but I can't find it...

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Was watching the Beeb last night.   Apparently PSNI are withholding files from Police Ombudsman.  Anyhow they had Nuala O'Loan and Jeffrey Donaldson in the studio for interview.

She quoted the laws and said cops were bang out of order.  Jeffrey said she was correct on the law but that it could be trumped by "National Security".  What was most noticeable was how bristled Donaldson seemed by her.  He pointedly refused to address her as Baroness throughout the discussion.  It was Nuala O'Loan or Mrs O'Loan (even when she corrected him).  It struck me as ironic for a Unionist to be perturbed by a title like that.

Was he annoyed that a Taig getting such a grandiose honour or is there other history there?

/Jim.

[foxcommander]

I can't believe this isn't getting more attention...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-27714715

British government authorised use of torture methods in NI in early 1970s

The British government authorised the use of torture methods in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s, an RTÉ documentary has revealed.

The finding was contained in a memo obtained by RTÉ's Investigation Unit.

The programme alleged the practice was carried out on 14 Catholic men after they were interned in 1971.

'The Torture Files' contained correspondence sent by the then Home Secretary Merlyn Rees to the Prime Minister James Callaghan in March 1977.

The memo detailed a meeting between the Attorney General of the Republic of Ireland and his UK counterpart.

'Political decision'

Mr Rees states in the letter that it was his "view (confirmed by Brian Faulkner before his death [NI's prime minister at the time]) that the decision to use methods of torture in Northern Ireland in 1971/72 was taken by ministers - in particular Lord Carrington, then secretary of state for defence."

"If at any time methods of torture are used in Northern Ireland contrary to the view of the government of the day, I would agree that individual policemen or solders should be prosecuted or disciplined; but in the particular circumstances of 1971/72, a political decision was taken," Mr Rees stated in his letter.

"I do not believe that the Irish government understand the nature of the situation in 1971/72 - a situation which, to his credit, Mr Heath (Edward Heath, the then prime minster) ended."

In August 1971, in the wake of escalating violence in Northern Ireland, Brian Faulkner introduced a new law giving the authorities the power to indefinitely detain suspected terrorists without trial (internment).

The law took effect on 9 August and during the next three days, 343 Catholics were arrested.

Twenty-one people died during the three days of unrest - 17 were shot by the British Army, 11 of whom were shot in the Ballymurphy area of west Belfast.

Those arrested were first brought to detention camps in Army bases - within two days more than 100 had been released - the rest were interned.

A dozen men were selected, hooded and flown by helicopter to a secret location, believed to be at Ballykelly airbase, County Londonderry.

Two more men later joined the others - they became known as the so-called Hooded Men who had been selected for what the Army termed "deep interrogation".

They claimed they were beaten and subjected to what were called the five techniques, which included food and sleep deprivation and being subjected to very loud noise for long periods.

A BBC Radio Ulster documentary in 2012 also revealed claims the British Army had used a form of torture known as water boarding in NI 40 years ago.

The five techniques the men were subjected to were later banned by the prime minister at the time, Edward Heath.

In December 1971, Ireland lodged a case against the United Kingdom government, alleging it breached the European Convention on Human Rights on torture, discrimination and the right to life.

Degrading treatment

The first stage of the process was an investigation by the European Human Rights Commission following the complaint.

In 1976, it ruled that the British government was guilty of torture and inhumane and degrading treatment.

Ireland, armed with the commission's finding, referred the case upwards to the European Court of Human Rights for judgment.

In 1978, the European court ruled that while the five techniques amounted to inhumane and degrading treatment, they did not constitute torture.

Patrick Corrigan, director of Amnesty International in Northern Ireland, said the revelations in the RTÉ documentary underscored "the need for a comprehensive means of dealing with our troubled past".

He said the 'The Torture Files' had further alleged that the UK government did not disclose relevant evidence to the European Court of Human Rights, in its defence of the case.

"These latest allegations that the UK government misled the European Court of Human Rights in the 'hooded men' case are deeply worrying," he said.

"The revelations underscore the need for a comprehensive means of dealing with our troubled past, and the need for all parties to come clean about their role in human rights violations and abuses."


**Edit... There may be a more appropriate thread for this but I can't find it...

As long as it didn't affect the free-staters they didn't give a flying fox what went on up there to irish citizens.

Not much pressure from the Irish government back in those days. A tut directed at London once in a while was deemed sufficient or the threat of intervention which you knew would never happen.

[Hardy]

One man's hauling the Brits before the European Court Of Human Rights is another man's "tut".

[foxcommander]

One man's hauling the Brits before the European Court Of Human Rights is another man's "tut".

That fairly sorted it out....

[Hardy]

It's the only thing you could find to post about on this thread.

[Rossfan]

".  What was most noticeable was how bristled Donaldson seemed by her.  He pointedly refused to address her as Baroness throughout the discussion.  It was Nuala O'Loan or Mrs O'Loan (even when she corrected him).  It struck me as ironic for a Unionist to be perturbed by a title like that.

Was he annoyed that a Taig getting such a grandiose honour or is there other history there?

/Jim.

Probably a major affront to his culture to have a Catholic putting the Polis in their place.
And them clowns are now talking about looking for votes from Catholics 

[waterfordlad]

I just read Lethal Allies by Ann Cadwallader about collusion between Loyalists paramilitaries and the RUC/UDR in the 70's in mid Ulster and it is shocking stuff. I didn't know about this as was only born around that time. Serving RUC and UDR members took part in gun and bomb attacks on many innocent Catholics in the area and this gang based around Tyrone and Armagh were responsible for up to 120 deaths including Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The heads of the gang were tipped off about security force activity and were able to freely organise terrorism mainly based from two farms in Armagh. Weapons were passed between  UDR/RUC and terrorists and in one case a 4 man RUC unit attacked a country bar in Armagh while on duty wearing overalls over the uniforms. A man who was shot outside recognised the boots as police boots when lying injured on the ground.  3 of them got suspended sentences from the judge then. Anyone else read this book?

[haveaharp]

I just read Lethal Allies by Ann Cadwallader about collusion between Loyalists paramilitaries and the RUC/UDR in the 70's in mid Ulster and it is shocking stuff. I didn't know about this as was only born around that time. Serving RUC and UDR members took part in gun and bomb attacks on many innocent Catholics in the area and this gang based around Tyrone and Armagh were responsible for up to 120 deaths including Dublin and Monaghan bombings. The heads of the gang were tipped off about security force activity and were able to freely organise terrorism mainly based from two farms in Armagh. Weapons were passed between  UDR/RUC and terrorists and in one case a 4 man RUC unit attacked a country bar in Armagh while on duty wearing overalls over the uniforms. A man who was shot outside recognised the boots as police boots when lying injured on the ground.  3 of them got suspended sentences from the judge then. Anyone else read this book?

Yes reading it at the minute. Not that much in it that we didn't know at the time. A couple of the names mentioned in it would have done business with an uncle of mine and would have come into the house and had a drop of tae and a chat. 2 faced f**kers.