British State Collusion

[Maguire01]

Appreciate this was posted a while ago, but this attitude confuses me. How many IRA victims do you reckon were shot dead at close range, unarmed and with their hands in the air? How many security force personnel were shot by the IRA when off-duty? Are you applying a different standard to the SAS?

For the record, i'd expect a higher standard from state forces than from a paramilitary organisation, and would condemn any 'shoot to kill' policy, but such an argument doesn't seem logical for someone who supported the legitimacy of the IRA campaign.

Quite a few IRA members were shot dea when unarmed and posing no threat to the safety of those security forces who could have easily arrested them. Only off the top of my head...

Vol Mairead Farrell
Vol Sean Savage
Vol Danny McCann
Vol Pearse Jordan
Vol David Devine
Vol Michael Devine
Vol Charlie Breslin
(the above three in total shot around 150 times, each with one to the head)
Vol Joe McCann
Vol Martin McCaughey
Vol Dessie Grew (shot 48 times, including one in the back as he lay "dead or dying" on the ground)
Vol Sean Burns
Vol Gervaise McKerr
Vol Eugene Toman

Again, These are just a few off the top of my head. The thing is Maguire, the only standards I am applying to the British are the standards they applied to themselves. While they insist they were not involved in a war, then by their own rules, people like those listed above, were murdered.

Once again, i'd agree that they fell well short of their own standards. So the issue is the hypocrisy rather than what they actually did (which in the cases you reference, was apply similar standards to paramilitaries)?

Shoot to kill was their standard they applied, therefore it was part of  their standard. SAS shoot to kill operations were part and parcel of the standard. For more extreme terror operations, they employed others to do that, UDR/Loyalist murder gangs.That strategy was also part of the British standard and has been a part of it for hundreds of years  around the world. Military structure is hierarchical, strategy and methods are handed down, grunts like the SAS/paratroopers just follow orders.
There may be some delusion floating about that there is a default noble military British standard  and sometimes they fall to meet that standard.

My reference to their 'standard' was a reference to the official line for the public, or what the public should expect from state forces.

[Wildweasel74]

Its easy making a big deal out of shoot to kill but to be honest the Ira had no problems shooting unarmed civilians, staff workers, and policemen so i dont see how we much of a leg to stand on giving out about their policy when the same applied to the other side??

[Main Street]

Its easy making a big deal out of shoot to kill but to be honest the Ira had no problems shooting unarmed civilians, staff workers, and policemen so i dont see how we much of a leg to stand on giving out about their policy when the same applied to the other side??

Who is the 'we can't complain' who are you talking about?
Are you talking from a republican volunteer perspective, he/she can't complain about getting shot in a 'shoot to kill' ambush because he/she would do the same against agents of the state? or  is it, we can't complain - we being a community, politicians, lawyers, citizens of the state,  can't complain about State directed terror campaign against a minority community who had no comebacks, no comebacks from the British Army, the RUC, the UDR, the loyalist armed gangs, the courts, the parliament who support all of that strategy, none at all. Whatever the murdering UDR thug decided to do at a checkpoint -  was the law .... can't complain?
No comebacks to an RUC man who shoots a demonstrator in front of the world's cameras. No comeback to blatant murder on the street, no one to say that was illegal.  You have the British state engaged in a dirty war, ranging from random sectarian murders, to shoot to kill, to internment, to prison repression, torture
and we can't complain, because some republicans would also do the same?
and sure anyway didn't the nationalists bring it all upon themselves in the first place?

[Feckitt]

Main Street, It's not often you see a comment on this board that can sum things up as concisely as you have just done.  I commend you on that post. 

[Gaffer]

Its easy making a big deal out of shoot to kill but to be honest the Ira had no problems shooting unarmed civilians, staff workers, and policemen so i dont see how we much of a leg to stand on giving out about their policy when the same applied to the other side??

  Totally agree !!  Provo supporters are and always were total hypocrites.
They have cried crocodile tears for years over innocent Catholics being murdered by loyalists though when the Provos  killed innocent Catholics and Protestants they cared not a hoot!!!!

[Jeepers Creepers]

Think some are missing the point here. This topic is about 'law enforcement' officers murdering people it was supposed to be protecting.

[BennyCake]

Think some are missing the point here. This topic is about 'law enforcement' officers murdering people it was supposed to be protecting.

+1

[Wildweasel74]

I only originally mentioned it as someone had posted a vol. list of IRA members shoot dead unarmed, but they would do the same likewise.

this doesn't take away the deliberate attempt by UDR  who had uvf and uda members within its ranks organize the deliberate murder of Catholics whether they had involvement in anything or not, the fact that they were catholic was the only criteria they applied and their pure naked sectarianism shone through

[RealSpiritof98]

How can the brave stoopites come on her now, and basically say, 'no shit sherlock, the British Army and the RUC and the Loyalist Paramilitary Groups were all the one side'', yet they drag the men who fought against this group through the mud at every opportunity.  The republican movement by and large had legitimate targets, yes there was collateral damage, yes there was stupidity and yes there was evil thugs.  The brave keyboard warriors that can travel south without a checkpoint, can sit at their cushy civil service job, can send there kids to rugby/soccer training forget what the war has now provided for them. the men that take the leap of change will always be shafted, you only have to Look at Trimble and Paisley. We have come so far on this Island yet again history will repeat itself when the west brit section of the nationalist community will cosy up their paymasters. Republicans come in all shapes and sizes. For me 1, there are no brits on out streets. 2, I can cross the boarder without any hassle, the politicians that I vote for has a say in running my affairs. 3, I can spend Euro in 90% of the shops im enter in the north. 4, im happy to engage with any sections of the community to further this part of the Island.

Do I want a united Ireland?-YES of course, am a happy with the current situation?-NO, but am i satisfied that the war effort has put us in the right place to get the best for our people-absolutely.

[Maguire01]

How can the brave stoopites come on her now, and basically say, 'no shit sherlock, the British Army and the RUC and the Loyalist Paramilitary Groups were all the one side'', yet they drag the men who fought against this group through the mud at every opportunity.  The republican movement by and large had legitimate targets, yes there was collateral damage, yes there was stupidity and yes there was evil thugs.  The brave keyboard warriors that can travel south without a checkpoint, can sit at their cushy civil service job, can send there kids to rugby/soccer training forget what the war has now provided for them. the men that take the leap of change will always be shafted, you only have to Look at Trimble and Paisley. We have come so far on this Island yet again history will repeat itself when the west brit section of the nationalist community will cosy up their paymasters. Republicans come in all shapes and sizes. For me 1, there are no brits on out streets. 2, I can cross the boarder without any hassle, the politicians that I vote for has a say in running my affairs. 3, I can spend Euro in 90% of the shops im enter in the north. 4, im happy to engage with any sections of the community to further this part of the Island.

Do I want a united Ireland?-YES of course, am a happy with the current situation?-NO, but am i satisfied that the war effort has put us in the right place to get the best for our people-absolutely.

Such delusion. But then again, if you supported the actions of the IRA, you have to believe that, otherwise it's exposed as the futile waste of life it was.

And when you refer to the "cushy civil service jobs" and the "west brit section of the nationalist community" cosying up to "their paymasters" - hmmm... hard to know who you're referring to there. There are a lot of republicans looking very comfy in their "cushy" civil service jobs, looking very cosy with their paymasters. But it was all worthwhile, eh?

[Nally Stand]

Think some are missing avoiding the point here. This topic is about 'law enforcement' officers murdering people it was supposed to be protecting.

[brokencrossbar1]

I was at the launch of the Anne Cadwallader's book the other day(and there are dodgy photos of me there too!)  A very emotional and amazing few hours.  There was an amazing turn-up, at least 200, and they sold nearly 400 books on the day alone.  Some of the stories that were conveyed were heart wrenching.  I have started the book and it is quite a read.  I have a very personal connection to the story that brought this book about and it is amazing how fate can deal cards differently for people.  I would urge anyone who has any interest in finding out what this country was like for many people to get this book, it is a real education,

[gallsman]

How can the brave stoopites come on her now, and basically say, 'no shit sherlock, the British Army and the RUC and the Loyalist Paramilitary Groups were all the one side'', yet they drag the men who fought against this group through the mud at every opportunity.  The republican movement by and large had legitimate targets, yes there was collateral damage, yes there was stupidity and yes there was evil thugs.  The brave keyboard warriors that can travel south without a checkpoint, can sit at their cushy civil service job, can send there kids to rugby/soccer training forget what the war has now provided for them. the men that take the leap of change will always be shafted, you only have to Look at Trimble and Paisley. We have come so far on this Island yet again history will repeat itself when the west brit section of the nationalist community will cosy up their paymasters. Republicans come in all shapes and sizes. For me 1, there are no brits on out streets. 2, I can cross the boarder without any hassle, the politicians that I vote for has a say in running my affairs. 3, I can spend Euro in 90% of the shops im enter in the north. 4, im happy to engage with any sections of the community to further this part of the Island.

Do I want a united Ireland?-YES of course, am a happy with the current situation?-NO, but am i satisfied that the war effort has put us in the right place to get the best for our people-absolutely.

1) That's an outright lie.

2) Are you attempting to claim that was a military objective?

[stibhan]

Collateral damage. Ah jesus.

When are the people who use that particular euphemism going to realise that it was a term coined to abstract exactly the kind of state thuggery that this thread is about?

The people who were killed at Enniskillen and the Shankill weren't 'collateral damage'. They were people, for f**k's sake.

[dillinger]

Do I want a united Ireland?-YES of course, am a happy with the current situation?-NO, but am i satisfied that the war effort has put us in the right place to get the best for our people-absolutely.

Do you, or others feel that the war effort should have ended sooner?
Say in the early 1980's.

By then surely the IRA knew that Britain were never going to withdraw.

The longer it went on meant Unionist's attitude against an U.I. hardened
with every bomb and every bullet.