British State Collusion

[Maguire01]

The book sounds like a good read. Missed Tom Elliott, but caught Donaldson and Kennedy on the radio - their failure to call a spade 'a spade' was pathetic.

[Maguire01]

Letter to The Irish Times by the brother of Vol. Mairead Farrell, who while unarmed and with her hands in the air, was shot dead at close range by the SAS (eight times in the back and face), alongside Vols Sean Savage (shot between 16 & 18 times) & Daniel McCann (shot 5 times) 25 years ago.

Appreciate this was posted a while ago, but this attitude confuses me. How many IRA victims do you reckon were shot dead at close range, unarmed and with their hands in the air? How many security force personnel were shot by the IRA when off-duty? Are you applying a different standard to the SAS?

For the record, i'd expect a higher standard from state forces than from a paramilitary organisation, and would condemn any 'shoot to kill' policy, but such an argument doesn't seem logical for someone who supported the legitimacy of the IRA campaign.

[general_lee]

While I do not speak for Nally Stand, in my own opinion the likes of British state agencies in a lot of cases were in a position to carry out arrests on suspected IRA members rather than shooting them on the spot and then subsequently attempt to deny that they were unarmed or that there was a STK policy in place.

They also did this with non-combatants, as well as blatantly colluding with Loyalists who were inherently sectarian in their selection of targets.

So on that basis, (and granted I think that any member willing to volunteer in the IRA should be aware of the risk to their lives),  I don't see how anyone can view the IRA as terrorists and simultaneously ignore/forget/downplay the acts of the British Gov; and somehow view them as morally superior to the IRA when they played as much an active role in killing innocent civilians as any Republican grouping did.

[Maguire01]

While I do not speak for Nally Stand, in my own opinion the likes of British state agencies in a lot of cases were in a position to carry out arrests on suspected IRA members rather than shooting them on the spot and then subsequently attempt to deny that they were unarmed or that there was a STK policy in place.

They also did this with non-combatants, as well as blatantly colluding with Loyalists who were inherently sectarian in their selection of targets.

So on that basis, (and granted I think that any member willing to volunteer in the IRA should be aware of the risk to their lives),  I don't see how anyone can view the IRA as terrorists and simultaneously ignore/forget/downplay the acts of the British Gov; and somehow view them as morally superior to the IRA when they played as much an active role in killing innocent civilians as any Republican grouping did.

But i'm not doing that. As I said in my post above, i'd hold state forces to a higher standard than paramilitaries.

[Kidder81]

Sad to see this being used as a point scoring exercise between nationalists, pretty repugnant actually. The victims and their families should be the focus here and trying to get some of the rogue elements in the British forces/UDR held to account. I wouldn't be holding my breath though.

[Nally Stand]

Appreciate this was posted a while ago, but this attitude confuses me. How many IRA victims do you reckon were shot dead at close range, unarmed and with their hands in the air? How many security force personnel were shot by the IRA when off-duty? Are you applying a different standard to the SAS?

For the record, i'd expect a higher standard from state forces than from a paramilitary organisation, and would condemn any 'shoot to kill' policy, but such an argument doesn't seem logical for someone who supported the legitimacy of the IRA campaign.

Quite a few IRA members were shot dea when unarmed and posing no threat to the safety of those security forces who could have easily arrested them. Only off the top of my head...

Vol Mairead Farrell
Vol Sean Savage
Vol Danny McCann
Vol Pearse Jordan
Vol David Devine
Vol Michael Devine
Vol Charlie Breslin
(the above three in total shot around 150 times, each with one to the head)
Vol Joe McCann
Vol Martin McCaughey
Vol Dessie Grew (shot 48 times, including one in the back as he lay "dead or dying" on the ground)
Vol Sean Burns
Vol Gervaise McKerr
Vol Eugene Toman

Again, These are just a few off the top of my head. The thing is Maguire, the only standards I am applying to the British are the standards they applied to themselves. While they insist they were not involved in a war, then by their own rules, people like those listed above, were murdered.

[AQMP]

The UDR was part of the British Army.  It was the British Army's largest infantry regiment.  In 2006 it was retrospectively awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross.

[give her dixie]

Growing up I could handle been stopped by the RUC and the Brits, but whenever I was stopped by the UDR, I was always on edge as you never knew what would come next. They were without a doubt the lowest of the low, and like many on here, I don't need a book to tell me of the dirty deeds they committed over the years not only in my area, but across the 6 counties.

While I will not hold my breath for justice for those murdered, or recognition of their unlawful deeds by the likes of Jeffrey and Tom, I just hope that the families of those murdered can find some sort of comfort in knowing that their loved ones were murdered in cold blood by agents of the British Government.

[Rossfan]

Sad to see this being used as a point scoring exercise between nationalists, pretty repugnant actually. The victims and their families should be the focus here and trying to get some of the rogue elements in the British forces/UDR held to account. I wouldn't be holding my breath though.

+1.
Stick to the point lads and leave the jibes to the Sinn Féin and SDLP threads

[Maguire01]

Appreciate this was posted a while ago, but this attitude confuses me. How many IRA victims do you reckon were shot dead at close range, unarmed and with their hands in the air? How many security force personnel were shot by the IRA when off-duty? Are you applying a different standard to the SAS?

For the record, i'd expect a higher standard from state forces than from a paramilitary organisation, and would condemn any 'shoot to kill' policy, but such an argument doesn't seem logical for someone who supported the legitimacy of the IRA campaign.

Quite a few IRA members were shot dea when unarmed and posing no threat to the safety of those security forces who could have easily arrested them. Only off the top of my head...

Vol Mairead Farrell
Vol Sean Savage
Vol Danny McCann
Vol Pearse Jordan
Vol David Devine
Vol Michael Devine
Vol Charlie Breslin
(the above three in total shot around 150 times, each with one to the head)
Vol Joe McCann
Vol Martin McCaughey
Vol Dessie Grew (shot 48 times, including one in the back as he lay "dead or dying" on the ground)
Vol Sean Burns
Vol Gervaise McKerr
Vol Eugene Toman

Again, These are just a few off the top of my head. The thing is Maguire, the only standards I am applying to the British are the standards they applied to themselves. While they insist they were not involved in a war, then by their own rules, people like those listed above, were murdered.

Once again, i'd agree that they fell well short of their own standards. So the issue is the hypocrisy rather than what they actually did (which in the cases you reference, was apply similar standards to paramilitaries)?

[Ulick]

Deiseach, I lived through it and listened to that from a stream of sdlp people. It was their line. I will never forget that. You have just ignored every point I made above, which says a lot.

You can't provide a single reference for it, because it's a lie.

Bollocks it is. Alban Maginness regularly denied the extent of collusion and called for nationalists to join the RUC. Similarly Austin Currie, Gerry Fitt, Joe Hendron, Eddy McGrady and Frank Feely to name just a few that I can remember.   

Bullshit.

http://www.anphoblacht.com/contents/14604

"According to state papers released by the British Government under the 30-year rule the collusion of official state forces with unofficial unionist paramilitaries had been raised by the then West Belfast MP Gerry Fitt shortly after the Newtownabbey killings. The British Minister was informed that the RUC had been alerted to the loyalist attack half an hour before the shooting but only arrived at the scene five minutes after the teenagers had been fatally wounded. "

I'm sure that copy and paste is supposed to be a retort to something, what, I can't quite tell. Certainly nothing that I posted previously.

"Alban Maginness regularly denied the extent of collusion and called for nationalists to join the RUC. Similarly Austin Currie, Gerry Fitt, Joe Hendron, Eddy McGrady and Frank Feely to name just a few that I can remember.   "

Rather than denying collusion Gerry Fitt actually raised the subject with the Brits in 1974.

Didn't say he denied it pal - no one could have denied it as it was as plain as the nose on your face. However Fitt and the loyal Stoops denied the extent of it i.e. it was systemic, endemic and not just a few "bad apples" as they were prone to telling us.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

It wasn't a case of the cops colluding with the 'loyalist' paramilitaries, the cops were the 'loyalist' paramilitaries.

[Íseal agus crua isteach a]

Ireland was Britain's experimental lab for their global policy.

[brokencrossbar1]

It wasn't a case of the cops colluding with the 'loyalist' paramilitaries, the cops were the 'loyalist' paramilitaries.

I think more than anything that is the key point to the whole issue.  Collusion would suggests that they were complicit with the paramilitaries and that they were 2 separate entities.  It is quite clear that they were interwoven to such an extent that they were by and large the one.  As someone said above you could cope being stopped by the average joe cops and soldiers but once it was the UDR you were fair game (I would also place the Paras in the same group).  The reality is that for years there was a state funded paramilitary group that had a blind eye turned on it for a number of reasons.  The Government needed to control the situation and what better way than to have the main security organisation controlling the 'dogs'.  It was key to them to retaining the notion of 'discipline' within the loyalist paramilitaries as they were truly afraid of the ramifications of allowing them a free reign.  They rightly believed that there was a greater sense of order in the IRA at the time and they were able to 'trust' them in that they knew generally what they were fighting for.  The Loyalists on the other hand were very much murder gangs and were simply out to kill a taig, any taig.  Of course there was an element of that in the IRA but not to the same degree.  They genuinely feared that if the loyalists were allowed to run their own show then there would have been a bloodbath beyond anything imaginable.  This in no way justifies what they did but gives an insight into their mindset and their weakness in dealing with the Troubles during the 70's.

[Main Street]

Appreciate this was posted a while ago, but this attitude confuses me. How many IRA victims do you reckon were shot dead at close range, unarmed and with their hands in the air? How many security force personnel were shot by the IRA when off-duty? Are you applying a different standard to the SAS?

For the record, i'd expect a higher standard from state forces than from a paramilitary organisation, and would condemn any 'shoot to kill' policy, but such an argument doesn't seem logical for someone who supported the legitimacy of the IRA campaign.

Quite a few IRA members were shot dea when unarmed and posing no threat to the safety of those security forces who could have easily arrested them. Only off the top of my head...

Vol Mairead Farrell
Vol Sean Savage
Vol Danny McCann
Vol Pearse Jordan
Vol David Devine
Vol Michael Devine
Vol Charlie Breslin
(the above three in total shot around 150 times, each with one to the head)
Vol Joe McCann
Vol Martin McCaughey
Vol Dessie Grew (shot 48 times, including one in the back as he lay "dead or dying" on the ground)
Vol Sean Burns
Vol Gervaise McKerr
Vol Eugene Toman

Again, These are just a few off the top of my head. The thing is Maguire, the only standards I am applying to the British are the standards they applied to themselves. While they insist they were not involved in a war, then by their own rules, people like those listed above, were murdered.

Once again, i'd agree that they fell well short of their own standards. So the issue is the hypocrisy rather than what they actually did (which in the cases you reference, was apply similar standards to paramilitaries)?

Shoot to kill was their standard they applied, therefore it was part of  their standard. SAS shoot to kill operations were part and parcel of the standard. For more extreme terror operations, they employed others to do that, UDR/Loyalist murder gangs.That strategy was also part of the British standard and has been a part of it for hundreds of years  around the world. Military structure is hierarchical, strategy and methods are handed down, grunts like the SAS/paratroopers just follow orders.
There may be some delusion floating about that there is a default noble military British standard  and sometimes they fall to meet that standard.