British State Collusion

[Myles Na G.]

'Of course there is no hard evidence of this'.

If you aren't going to base your claims on evidence then they are no more than falsehoods. The British Government would have had absolutely no reason to obfuscate the supposed fact that Finucane was in the IRA and your weasel words to the contrary are insulting to everyone's intelligence. You mentioned Gerard Donaghy, who was not exonerated of involvement in Fianna Éireann by Saville in any shape or form, a fact that completely contradicts your arguments.

As I said to that absolute p***k Ruth Dudley Edwards on twitter, you people may think that you get the right to decide who is/was a terrorist but you absolutely do not. None of your claims stand to reason but are based on the same kind of bigotry and sectarianism that led to Douglas Hogg's comments and the eventual murder of someone who represented both loyalists and republicans in court.

The question has to be asked, however, if you are labeling Finucane as a member of the IRA, are you also labeling his partner Peter Madden as such?

The British government has every reason to skate over the fact that PF was in the IRA and I've given them in previous posts. Saville was not a British government sponsored enquiry, it was an independent public enquiry. You've just highlighted the reason why the BG would rather apologise for PF's killing and move on. Your use of the words bigotry and sectarianism makes me wonder if you know what they mean. I appreciate that they're big favourites in the republican lexicon, even while republican ministers are discriminating against protestant job applicants or while republican councillors are naming play parks after people who carried out the Kingsmill massacre. Study those things and you'll maybe understand the real meaning of both words. As for Peter Madden, as far as I'm aware he's a fine solicitor, same as Rosemary Nelson, same as PJ McCrory, Padraigin Drinan and a host of others. What's your point? On the hard evidence point: lack of hard evidence hasn't stopped Enda Kenny from trailing Gerry Adams round the floor of the Irish parliament recently on account of his involvement in the Jean McConville abduction. Tweet that!

[Myles Na G.]

So you know better than his family, the PSNI (who have access to his intelligence reports), the IRA, Brit army and practically everyone who has ever examined the case? No evidence was ever produced to even suggest he was in the IRA, but you know better. Not often I ever resort to insults on here, but previous poster is right, you are a ballbag.

The family who loved him and want to protect his memory, the state that murdered him and which is now engaged in a damage limitation exercise - these are the sources you're relying on? Think I'll form my own opinion, thanks. It's based on the fact that PF was from a strong republican family, with 3 brothers who were active IRA members. PF was in a position to help the IRA by carrying vital intelligence information in and out of the prisons. He would've been asked to assist and with his background, it's unlikely he would've said no. Of course there's no hard evidence of this. The IRA were hardly likely to expose such a valuable asset to arrest by asking him to smuggle armalites into the Maze. But you know better. You know for certain that neither PF or Gerry Adams were ever in the IRA. You know this because the IRA, the British Army, MI5 and Mrs Finucane have said so. You are one gullible, republican gobshite.

You swallow more than a Spring-Tide of the British war-machine propaganda, and you have the bottomless shame to call others 'gullible, republican...'. Gobshite indeed.

On this occasion, I'm the one who's refusing to accept what the British war machine is pumping out. It's the republicans on the board who are so desperate to make a secular saint of Pat Finucane that they are quoting MI5, the British Army and the RUC to back up their case. Strange days.

Crawl back under your rock you horrible tit.

Give us evidence of PF being in the RA, you cant and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary you continue to smear a man that was murdered by loyalist butchers, you are pond scum, a coward and a hypocrite!

Calm down, Stewpid. And wipe that froth off your mouth man, it's not a good look.

[ziggysego]

Nifan is a fantastic poster.

EG and SammyG,  whilst could get under my skin at times, I have respect for. Argued for what truly admit, but could listen to others and admit when they're are wrong.

You Myles, I've no respect for. You're a bitter soul, intent on stirring up sectarian haters. Well it's not going to happen. Now clear off and stop digging yourself into a hole.

You're clearly not wanted here by anyone.

[stibhan]

'Of course there is no hard evidence of this'.

If you aren't going to base your claims on evidence then they are no more than falsehoods. The British Government would have had absolutely no reason to obfuscate the supposed fact that Finucane was in the IRA and your weasel words to the contrary are insulting to everyone's intelligence. You mentioned Gerard Donaghy, who was not exonerated of involvement in Fianna Éireann by Saville in any shape or form, a fact that completely contradicts your arguments.

As I said to that absolute p***k Ruth Dudley Edwards on twitter, you people may think that you get the right to decide who is/was a terrorist but you absolutely do not. None of your claims stand to reason but are based on the same kind of bigotry and sectarianism that led to Douglas Hogg's comments and the eventual murder of someone who represented both loyalists and republicans in court.

The question has to be asked, however, if you are labeling Finucane as a member of the IRA, are you also labeling his partner Peter Madden as such?

The British government has every reason to skate over the fact that PF was in the IRA and I've given them in previous posts. Saville was not a British government sponsored enquiry, it was an independent public enquiry. You've just highlighted the reason why the BG would rather apologise for PF's killing and move on. Your use of the words bigotry and sectarianism makes me wonder if you know what they mean. I appreciate that they're big favourites in the republican lexicon, even while republican ministers are discriminating against protestant job applicants or while republican councillors are naming play parks after people who carried out the Kingsmill massacre. Study those things and you'll maybe understand the real meaning of both words. As for Peter Madden, as far as I'm aware he's a fine solicitor, same as Rosemary Nelson, same as PJ McCrory, Padraigin Drinan and a host of others. What's your point? On the hard evidence point: lack of hard evidence hasn't stopped Enda Kenny from trailing Gerry Adams round the floor of the Irish parliament recently on account of his involvement in the Jean McConville abduction. Tweet that!

I don't think I need to be lectured on etymology and I feel that the use of both words was very much appropriate. None of what you said regarding your opinion that Pat Finucane was in the IRA has even been based on fact but hearsay as you yourself point out, and you've instead turned to sniveling whataboutery about events which are, again, subject to serious controversy and debate. Nonetheless the fact remains that what you say about Saville - it being an independent inquiry - is exactly right with regards to this case, and it would take that kind of scrutiny to ascertain whatever 'facts' which you so choose to believe.

My point about Madden is that you're labeling Finucane an IRA member but supposedly exonerating his partner of 10 years for the same crime, which suggest to me either that you're lying or that you're only comfortable making those sort of accusations against people who are dead. I don't doubt the innocence of all that you mentioned, even if you misspelled some of the names, but then I don't either doubt Finucane's innocence and this smear as the unionist defence mechanism that it is.

Parliamentary Privilege would be another defence mechanism by which Kenny is able to 'trail' Gerry Adams 'round the floor' of the Dail, doing so if I recall correctly in a manner which was so far removed from the tone and context of the debate that it should be embarrassing to the taoiseach. In any case you are not an elected representative and even if you were, you are not speaking in the Westminster, Stormont or Leinster House and do not have the protection of the law.

It is interesting that you would bring such an instance up considering how Parliamentary Privilege for Douglas Hogg is a central feature of the Finucane case. Then again, I don't doubt that it is an attempt to bring the focus of this argument away from Finucane - I didn't mention Jean McConville and it has absolutely nothing to do with this case. If you wish to start a separate thread about it then I will choose whether to contribute in that thread or not. As it stands we are discussing British Collusion and I'd appreciate it if you limited the scope of your answers to that particular topic.

I once again remind you that you are not in possession of the full details of this case and that you and the various others seeking to repeat the smear campaign of the British war machine are not the appointed moral arbiter for this case. From what is in the public domain and from what are accepted facts none of the conclusions that you draw can be verified and indeed many of them have been debunked using such accepted facts. Perhaps while I am occupied studying the words 'sectarianism', and 'bigotry', you can examine these and then revise some of these conclusions.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

All the way to Thatcher, at least Niall O'Dowd is in no doubt whatsoever...

The truth is Margaret Thatcher likely ordered the Pat Finucane murder - British can never reveal the truth about the killing of civil rights lawyer By Niall O'Dowd

__________________________________________________

The latest British inquiry into the death of Pat Finucane is again leaving massive questions unanswered.

The Guardian newspaper editorial headline said it best; "Pat Finucane murder: collusion, contrition, but not the whole truth."

My strong belief is that the whole truth is that Margaret Thatcher ordered the Pat Finucane murder on February 12, 1989.

That is the key reason that no British Prime Minister will ever allow a public inquiry into the killing of the Belfast civil rights lawyer gunned down in front of his wife and children at his home.

He was shot 14 times while his widow, Geraldine, who was injured, tried to save him.

His only offense was to defend suspected IRA men and women too well in their court hearings.

I am not at all surprised that David Cameron uttered words of regret and then refused a public inquiry after the Da Silva report was issued yesterday.

Geraldine Finucane, a woman of immense courage,called it for what it was.

"This report is a sham. This report is a whitewash. This report is a confidence trick dressed up as independent scrutiny and given invisible clothes of reliability. Most of all, most hurtful and insulting of all, this report is not the truth," she told reporters afterwards.

She knows what the truth is. The order to kill her husband came all the way from the top and David Cameron or any other British Prime Minister can never allow that truth to be revealed.

He can't admit the British kill civil rights lawyers, can he?

Patrick Finucane was bringing the case of the Gibraltar 3, three IRA members shot dead in cold blood in March 1988, to Europe, which was going to be a massive embarrassment for Thatcher, who very likely gave the order for them to be shot dead also.

That court later found the three had been shot unlawfully. They had their hands up in surrender when they were shot down.

Finucane was doomed by a top government official. A member of Thatcher's government Douglas Hogg, a Home Office minister, stood up in the House of Commons three weeks before Finucane was murdered and stated that some lawyers in Northern Ireland were "unduly sympathetic" to Irish Republicans.

He was directly referring to Finucane and signaling the killers to go ahead.

The new inquiry shows that MI5 was perfectly aware of the Finucane murder plot as were the RUC Special branch.

The Stevens inquiry into the Finucane killings stated, "My Enquiry team also investigated an allegation that senior RUC officers briefed the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department, the Rt Hon Douglas Hogg QC, MP, that 'some solicitors were unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA."

Mr Hogg repeated this view...and the Enquiry concludes that "the Minister was compromised."

In this latest enquiry, Sir Desmond Da Silva wrote, "My review of the evidence relating to Patrick Finucane's case has left me in no doubt that agents of the State were involved in carrying out serious violations of human rights up to and including murder."

Those agents did not act alone, they did so on orders from on high -- all the way to 10 Downing Street.

Thatcher's reaction to the finding that her minister was responsible for the death of a lawyer?

She promoted him to Minister for Agriculture, all the better to keep him quiet.

Hogg was not alone in fingering Finucane of course. It went much higher in the government, all the way to the top.

It was a time when Thatcher apparently believed she could win the war if only those pesky lawyers would stop getting guilty terrorists off. She also faced massive embarrassment in Europe over the Gibraltar killings.

The killing was sanctioned and carried out by the British state. Of all the crimes committed in Northern Ireland, the Finucane murder is the one which successive British government, of whatever hue, have most resisted investigating.

Pat's problem was that he was too good at his job of defending Irish men and women arrested for alleged crimes against the state.

He had to be got rid of. The leader of the gang that killed him was a British special branch agent named Tommy Lyttle. The man who confessed to being the Ulster Defense Association hit man was Ken Barrett, also a special branch agent.

The UDA man who supplied the gun was William Stobie, also a special branch agent. He was killed by the UDA, by a British agent in 2001, when he threatened to tell the truth about what happened to Pat Finucane.

Hogg and Thatcher might as well have been in the room when the gun went off fourteen times - they were just as culpable. The naming was the equivalent of painting a target on Finucane's back - everyone knew who Hogg meant.

The British government had made their preference known.

And all the whitewash in the world will never remove the truth about what happened to Pat Finucane.

[Wildweasel74]

Myles you don't live in the north i think, going on previous post elsewhere, the reality is you know very little of the troubles outside what u would have read in the papers at the time, up her you were always innocent until proved guilty, if my brother done something, does that mean am guilty by association or blood, the old adage, innocent until proved guilty is universal, This man as far as i am aware was guilty of nothing, been a republican is no reason for shooting a man. Maybe you dont like who he represented, but somebody would have represented IRA suspects in court if he did not. does that give the police/state the right to allow a terrorist organization to shoot him because they think he involved somehow. No is the answer encase you stuck looking for one. And no i dont vote for sinn fein is the other encase you think am a die hard republican

[Myles Na G.]

Myles you don't live in the north i think, going on previous post elsewhere, the reality is you know very little of the troubles outside what u would have read in the papers at the time, up her you were always innocent until proved guilty, if my brother done something, does that mean am guilty by association or blood, the old adage, innocent until proved guilty is universal, This man as far as i am aware was guilty of nothing, been a republican is no reason for shooting a man. Maybe you dont like who he represented, but somebody would have represented IRA suspects in court if he did not. does that give the police/state the right to allow a terrorist organization to shoot him because they think he involved somehow. No is the answer encase you stuck looking for one. And no i dont vote for sinn fein is the other encase you think am a die hard republican

Born and bred in Belfast as it happens, and still living here. And old enough to remember the troubles in their entirety.

O'Dowd's article is simply an example of more cherry picking from republicans. Quite happy, it appears, to accept some aspects of this British state sponsored report (ie Pat Finuncane was not actively assisting the IRA, we're truly sorry, etc etc), but unhappy with the over arching conclusion (ie this act of murder was commissioned and carried out at a low operational level of the political / military food chain). The fact is, the execution of PF was absolutely wrong, whether he was a human rights lawyer or an IRA operative. The British government knows this. It knows that democratic governments in the western world cannot go around ordering the murder of political dissidents. It therefore wants to put a lid on this case to avoid the embarrassment of further revelations. The report is designed to do just that. It is fundamentally flawed, which means that all its conclusions need to be treated with caution. That includes the conclusion that PF wasn't actively assisting the IRA.

[Wildweasel74]

The fact that you live in belfast, i cant understand your attitude to this, i would have little interest in republican affairs, i would have alot of catholic and protestant friends, i have little time for politics to tell you the truth, but Derry always Derry to me not londonderry, Ireland is my football and rugby team, i lived down south a while, i still see myself as very Irish (in reality maybe more Irish than people down south) in a way abit like these clowns with the flags see themselves more British than the mainland, the siege mentality kicks in. Even though i wont term myself as a republican,ic an see there is something very wrong about what happened. guesswork if he was in an organization does not help matters. You only rile up alot of people on here including myself that's see an injustice, with supposed justification for the state/UDA  for carrying this murder was that his own crime was he was a republican, and thats so wrong.

[Myles Na G.]

The fact that you live in belfast, i cant understand your attitude to this, i would have little interest in republican affairs, i would have alot of catholic and protestant friends, i have little time for politics to tell you the truth, but Derry always Derry to me not londonderry, Ireland is my football and rugby team, i lived down south a while, i still see myself as very Irish (in reality maybe more Irish than people down south) in a way abit like these clowns with the flags see themselves more British than the mainland, the siege mentality kicks in. Even though i wont term myself as a republican,ic an see there is something very wrong about what happened. guesswork on if he was in an organization does not help matters. You only rile up alot of people on here including myself that's see an injustice, with supposed justification for the state/UDA  for carrying this murder was that his own crime was he was a republican, and thats so wrong.

How many different ways can I say that the murder of PF was wrong? Governments should not go around bumping off people they don't like, end of story. The fact that I think PF was an active IRA member does not qualify that in any way.

[stew]

So you know better than his family, the PSNI (who have access to his intelligence reports), the IRA, Brit army and practically everyone who has ever examined the case? No evidence was ever produced to even suggest he was in the IRA, but you know better. Not often I ever resort to insults on here, but previous poster is right, you are a ballbag.

The family who loved him and want to protect his memory, the state that murdered him and which is now engaged in a damage limitation exercise - these are the sources you're relying on? Think I'll form my own opinion, thanks. It's based on the fact that PF was from a strong republican family, with 3 brothers who were active IRA members. PF was in a position to help the IRA by carrying vital intelligence information in and out of the prisons. He would've been asked to assist and with his background, it's unlikely he would've said no. Of course there's no hard evidence of this. The IRA were hardly likely to expose such a valuable asset to arrest by asking him to smuggle armalites into the Maze. But you know better. You know for certain that neither PF or Gerry Adams were ever in the IRA. You know this because the IRA, the British Army, MI5 and Mrs Finucane have said so. You are one gullible, republican gobshite.

You swallow more than a Spring-Tide of the British war-machine propaganda, and you have the bottomless shame to call others 'gullible, republican...'. Gobshite indeed.

On this occasion, I'm the one who's refusing to accept what the British war machine is pumping out. It's the republicans on the board who are so desperate to make a secular saint of Pat Finucane that they are quoting MI5, the British Army and the RUC to back up their case. Strange days.

Crawl back under your rock you horrible tit.

Give us evidence of PF being in the RA, you cant and despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary you continue to smear a man that was murdered by loyalist butchers, you are pond scum, a coward and a hypocrite!

Calm down, Stewpid. And wipe that froth off your mouth man, it's not a good look.

Shove your advice up your hole you horrible, bigoted barsteward.

[Itchy]

Myles - if you have information that proves Pat Finucane was in the IRA you should really give it to the PSNI. If you don't then perhaps you should just stop taking shite and being such a bitter nasty little man.

[stew]

The fact that you live in belfast, i cant understand your attitude to this, i would have little interest in republican affairs, i would have alot of catholic and protestant friends, i have little time for politics to tell you the truth, but Derry always Derry to me not londonderry, Ireland is my football and rugby team, i lived down south a while, i still see myself as very Irish (in reality maybe more Irish than people down south) in a way abit like these clowns with the flags see themselves more British than the mainland, the siege mentality kicks in. Even though i wont term myself as a republican,ic an see there is something very wrong about what happened. guesswork on if he was in an organization does not help matters. You only rile up alot of people on here including myself that's see an injustice, with supposed justification for the state/UDA  for carrying this murder was that his own crime was he was a republican, and thats so wrong.

How many different ways can I say that the murder of PF was wrong? Governments should not go around bumping off people they don't like, end of story. The fact that I think PF was an active IRA member does not qualify that in any way.

You think, you dont know and you are wrong, you are arrogant and despite the evidence to the contrary you hold fast to this warped view, that's a bit dim really!

You saying the murder means nothing, that you continue your cowardly assault on a dead man makes you a coward of the powest order, I just hope his wife never see's the bile you write!

[stew]

Myles - if you have information that proves Pat Finucane was in the IRA you should really give it to the PSNI. If you don't then perhaps you should just stop taking shite and being such a bitter nasty little man.

The PSNI wouldnt know what to do with evidence, i am waiting for him to call out someone who is still alive and state they were in the RA without proof, he would shit himself before he would do that because at heart he is a bigot and a coward!

[Myles Na G.]

Myles - if you have information that proves Pat Finucane was in the IRA you should really give it to the PSNI. If you don't then perhaps you should just stop taking shite and being such a bitter nasty little man.

The PSNI wouldnt know what to do with evidence, i am waiting for him to call out someone who is still alive and state they were in the RA without proof, he would shit himself before he would do that because at heart he is a bigot and a coward!

Two words for you, Stewpid: Gerry Adams.

[stew]

Myles - if you have information that proves Pat Finucane was in the IRA you should really give it to the PSNI. If you don't then perhaps you should just stop taking shite and being such a bitter nasty little man.

The PSNI wouldnt know what to do with evidence, i am waiting for him to call out someone who is still alive and state they were in the RA without proof, he would shit himself before he would do that because at heart he is a bigot and a coward!

Two words for you, Stewpid: Gerry Adams.

Piles. Gerry Adams has never been a member of the ra, he has denied it for decades, the pissni have never been able to nail him for it and your brit courts have never convicted of being a member of the IRA.

Piles, do the words " innocent until proven guilty" mean anything to you?

Your comments on PF are nothing but a disgrace and to me you are the scum of the earth, closet loyalist who is as arrogant as he is obscene.