British State Collusion

[Ulick]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

[Nally Stand]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

+1 but let's not forget another poster who contributed to the debate:

He was an IRA man, he got shot, get over it.

PF, like his brothers, was an active member of the IRA....
I repeat, he was in the IRA, he got shot, get over it.

[red hander]

Listening to David Cameron today would turn the stomach. Speaking about how "shocking" it was to hear of collusion being a factor! And that to bring peace on, "one of the things this government can do to help is to face up honestly when things have gone wrong in the past. If we as a country want to uphold democracy and the rule of law then we must be prepared to be judged by the highest standards. And we must also face up fully when we fall short. In showing once again that we are not afraid to do that." This is the same David Cameron who refuses a public inquiry and allowed this review based on nothing more than trusting MI5 etc to hand over all it's files. This is also the same David Cameron who spouted (along with the likes of An Taoiseach) about these two islands moving forward together in mutual respect etc etc after the royal visit to Dublin, but who's government the day after the visit ended, refused an Irish Government request to hand over it's files on the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. Hardly what I'd call "facing up honestly", Dave. I suppose in the spirit of this new found honesty, David's government will maybe release the rest of the Steven's report findings? As I mentioned on here before, when the final Stevens Report was completed, it ran to 3,000 pages. The British Government have only released just 22 (heavily censored) pages.

When loyalists murdered people in their homes, witnesses often reported that they had broken in and walked straight to the bedrooms of their victims, already knowing the house layout. I once recall seeing the "security" forces sketch my home's layout as a simple means of intimidation; but this tactic of intimidation by an implied threat was widespread. It gives an idea of the extent to which collusion was so very deeply rooted and makes you wonder how the full truth of it ever could all come out. Experiences like that, and days like today, also make me all the more amazed at some people, such as a certain mayo clown on this board, who's knowledge of what life was like here extended to expressing the view that in those times, people who were being subjected to security force intimidation just "should have reported it to the police".

No one should be surprised, sure the British did similar in every part of their empire that resisted occupation, we know it, they know, unionists who called people who alleged collusion fantasists know it ... that's why they can stick their f**king poppies right up their holes every November when they're bitching about Fenians not wearing them

[charlieTully]

Listening to David Cameron today would turn the stomach. Speaking about how "shocking" it was to hear of collusion being a factor! And that to bring peace on, "one of the things this government can do to help is to face up honestly when things have gone wrong in the past. If we as a country want to uphold democracy and the rule of law then we must be prepared to be judged by the highest standards. And we must also face up fully when we fall short. In showing once again that we are not afraid to do that." This is the same David Cameron who refuses a public inquiry and allowed this review based on nothing more than trusting MI5 etc to hand over all it's files. This is also the same David Cameron who spouted (along with the likes of An Taoiseach) about these two islands moving forward together in mutual respect etc etc after the royal visit to Dublin, but who's government the day after the visit ended, refused an Irish Government request to hand over it's files on the Dublin/Monaghan bombings. Hardly what I'd call "facing up honestly", Dave. I suppose in the spirit of this new found honesty, David's government will maybe release the rest of the Steven's report findings? As I mentioned on here before, when the final Stevens Report was completed, it ran to 3,000 pages. The British Government have only released just 22 (heavily censored) pages.

When loyalists murdered people in their homes, witnesses often reported that they had broken in and walked straight to the bedrooms of their victims, already knowing the house layout. I once recall seeing the "security" forces sketch my home's layout as a simple means of intimidation; but this tactic of intimidation by an implied threat was widespread. It gives an idea of the extent to which collusion was so very deeply rooted and makes you wonder how the full truth of it ever could all come out. Experiences like that, and days like today, also make me all the more amazed at some people, such as a certain mayo clown on this board, who's knowledge of what life was like here extended to expressing the view that in those times, people who were being subjected to security force intimidation just "should have reported it to the police".

No one should be surprised, sure the British did similar in every part of their empire that resisted occupation, we know it, they know, unionists who called people who alleged collusion fantasists know it ... that's why they can stick their f**king poppies right up their holes every November when they're bitching about Fenians not wearing them

+1. Could not agree more.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

If one accepts Desmond de Silva and what that states about the capabilities of (at the very least, elements of) the security forces in Northern Ireland then one must accept that the same forces were more than capable of spreading disinformation about Pat Finucane.

Myles and EG must see how this undermines the "everybody knew he was" arguments that have been bandied about.

No doubt opinions on the result of this report will fall either side of normal sectarian lines when it comes to Northern Ireland's politicians.  But even unionist representatives should realise that action must be taken to prevent the likes of this happening again. 

/Jim.

[heganboy]

interesting quote from Peter Hain

Pat Finucane had republican sympathies but he was a lawyer, not an activist, still less an IRA member. Yet, as De Silva confirms, the FRU and other state security officers obstructed the subsequent police murder investigation which would have exposed their complicity.

form http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/dec/12/pat-finucane-death-stain-northern-ireland

interesting question from an american in the office, "if the government provided 85% of the loyalist intelligence and all of their weaponry does that mean without government help only 15% of the folks they killed would actually have died?"

[stew]

What's with all this pathetic invocation of EG? Is this a variant of the "going out of your way to be offended" syndrome, whereby you go out of your way to find someone likely to have a different viewpoint to yourself (but only on occasions when you sense a potential opportunity to gloat and never on occasions when the shoe might be on the other foot)?

Or is it just another form of coat trailing/marching where you're not wanted, whereby a perceived victory (though that in itself is a pathetic view of the current situation) is worthless unless you can flaunt it before your perceived
enemy?

Whilst I agree with you highlighting this point in general, particularly over in the flag thread, I believe EG's views on this extremely  emotive  subject should be questioned here. He has dragged Pat Finucane's name through the mud on countless occasions and past evidence and today's evidence cements the notion that, at times, he does not simply post here to provide a unionist critique of our discussions but rather to inflame and insult the memory of a dead man.

He is a twisted, disgusting ignoramus and he should hang his head in shame for his comments regarding Pat Finucane, he was consistent in his bigotry and hatred of this man and he is a moral coward, if he had any human decency in his at all he would apologize, admit he lied about his sources pertaining to Finucane and then fcuk away off into the sunset.

Sadly he is not the type to admit he was wrong, he is a horrible, bitter little man and I hope he stays in his hole and we never hear from him or his like again.

[Maguire01]

How likely is it that a full public enquiry would actually uncover the whole truth on this?

[Myles Na G.]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

So you're convinced that PF wasn't in the IRA because a succession of British-state sponsored reports have said so? Just to be clear: that would be the same British state, presumably, that targeted him and colluded with loyalist killers to murder him in the first place? The same British state that might now have a vested interest in denying that PF was ever in the IRA, because to do otherwise would expose it to the accusation of retrospectively justifying his murder? The same British state that might be far better off just issuing a few apologies and claiming that a few rotten apples at the bottom of the barrel were to blame (especially as most of these rotten apples, as Mrs Finucane has pointed out, are dead or no longer serving with British forces) rather than risk a whole can of worms being opened up? That's the same British state you're citing to support your view that PF wasn't a Provo?
Fair enough. Each to his own.

[Ulick]

No I trust the word of his wife and family but good old British reports should be good enough for the likes of you.

[Franko]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

So you're convinced that PF wasn't in the IRA because a succession of British-state sponsored reports have said so? Just to be clear: that would be the same British state, presumably, that targeted him and colluded with loyalist killers to murder him in the first place? The same British state that might now have a vested interest in denying that PF was ever in the IRA, because to do otherwise would expose it to the accusation of retrospectively justifying his murder? The same British state that might be far better off just issuing a few apologies and claiming that a few rotten apples at the bottom of the barrel were to blame (especially as most of these rotten apples, as Mrs Finucane has pointed out, are dead or no longer serving with British forces) rather than risk a whole can of worms being opened up? That's the same British state you're citing to support your view that PF wasn't a Provo?
Fair enough. Each to his own.

So what you are saying is that the government have doctored the findings of the De Silva and Stevens reports to suit their own ends. I wonder, in that case, what other truths they have hidden?

[rossie mad]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

So you're convinced that PF wasn't in the IRA because a succession of British-state sponsored reports have said so? Just to be clear: that would be the same British state, presumably, that targeted him and colluded with loyalist killers to murder him in the first place? The same British state that might now have a vested interest in denying that PF was ever in the IRA, because to do otherwise would expose it to the accusation of retrospectively justifying his murder? The same British state that might be far better off just issuing a few apologies and claiming that a few rotten apples at the bottom of the barrel were to blame (especially as most of these rotten apples, as Mrs Finucane has pointed out, are dead or no longer serving with British forces) rather than risk a whole can of worms being opened up? That's the same British state you're citing to support your view that PF wasn't a Provo?
Fair enough. Each to his own.

So you are saying now that the brit goverment has made up the findings of the da silva report so that they now seem to be some sort of apologetic man that we now all have to feel sympathy for and take at face value that there was wrong one time in their past but all is rosy now and should be forgiven. but your twisted mindset still thinks instead the oppsite is the case and your view of mr Finucane being an active member of PIRA is the correct opinion.

I knew you were of the same pedigree as one of those hairs on the ballbag of a diseae infected rat but your last statement just confirms my findings

[el_cuervo_fc]

The phrase "There are none so blind as those who will not see" springs to mind here.

In all seriousness Myles, are you so twisted in your logic that you just can't admit when you are wrong?

[Myles Na G.]

No I trust the word of his wife and family but good old British reports should be good enough for the likes of you.

Good old British reports aren't good enough for me. Neither are the opinions of his wife and family.

[Myles Na G.]

even Mr Cameron explained this morning that there was a campaign of disinformation ref Mr Finucane, you can't blame someone for trusting their sources. Again he's willing to come and discuss which I think is a very welcome addition to the forum...

Maybe 20 years ago it could be forgiven but Finucane was cleared by many reports in the meantime. Repeating the lies here is only shit-stirring and insulting.

So you're convinced that PF wasn't in the IRA because a succession of British-state sponsored reports have said so? Just to be clear: that would be the same British state, presumably, that targeted him and colluded with loyalist killers to murder him in the first place? The same British state that might now have a vested interest in denying that PF was ever in the IRA, because to do otherwise would expose it to the accusation of retrospectively justifying his murder? The same British state that might be far better off just issuing a few apologies and claiming that a few rotten apples at the bottom of the barrel were to blame (especially as most of these rotten apples, as Mrs Finucane has pointed out, are dead or no longer serving with British forces) rather than risk a whole can of worms being opened up? That's the same British state you're citing to support your view that PF wasn't a Provo?
Fair enough. Each to his own.

So what you are saying is that the government have doctored the findings of the De Silva and Stevens reports to suit their own ends. I wonder, in that case, what other truths they have hidden?

That's what I'm saying. In the case of Stevens, they've refused to release most of it - just as k Nally Stand.