British State Collusion

[Billys Boots]

My point was that the piece didn't appear to come from an interested group, but from a BBC report.  I have no idea of the bona fides of your CAIN database, but I'd not expect the BBC to make unfounded statements. 

[trueblue1234]

File reveals British Army immunity from prosecution was official policy

In 1972, 79 Irish people were shot dead by the British Army on Irish soil. The vast majority of these were civilians. In July 1972, a strategic government and security meeting at Stormont Castle was held, involving the Secretary for State William Whitelaw MP, the North's most senior British Army officer the General Officer Commanding (GOC) General Ford, the Deputy Chief Constable of the RUC, plus Lord Windlesham the British government's representative in the House of Lords, British MP's, and senior civil servants from the NIO. Relatives for Justice this week unearthed a document from this meeting. The document includes some striking quotes:

• That the GOC (the Head of the British Army in the north) "would see UDA leaders that afternoon" to let them know that their "efforts as vigilantes" were "acceptable".
• That it was the British Governments"intention to carry on the war with the IRA with the utmost vigour"
• And crucially,  'The (British) Army should not be inhibited in its campaign by the threat of court proceedings and should therefore be suitably indemnified[/b]."

This is the first documented proof of the British Government's determination to see no British Soldiers convicted for killings in Ireland. Of the approximate 300 hundreds killings by the British Army in Ireland since 1969, there has only been convictions in three cases. All of those convicted were released significantly early and reinstated back to their regiments. Some were promoted. As mentioned, this meeting took place in 1972. That year 79 people were shot by the British Army. The meeting took place in July. That month the British Army killed 20 innocent civilians. Not one British soldier faced a conviction for ANY of these killings throughout 1972.

In terms of the "acceptable" nature of the UDA's "vigilante activities"- the month this meeting was held, loyalists committed 27 sectarian murders. Over half of these (16) were carried out by the "acceptable" UDA.

Whilst these are undoubtedly very serious matters, I find it impossible to take at face value any account by you of these meetings and documents etc, both because you are either vague or selective in your quotations, but also because you are extracting from some (uncited) document produced by "Relatives For Justice", hardly the most impartial of organisations.

Worse still, you display a blatant disregard for basic facts (at least when they don't suit your case).

To take just one example which may easily be checked, I would refer to your claim that the Army killed 20 "innocent civilians" [sic] in July 1972.

For a quick reference to CAIN discloses that those 20 deaths include:
09 July - John Dougal, IRA Member
09 July - David McCafferty, IRA Mermber
11 July - Gerard Gibson, IRA Member
13 July - James Reid, IRA Member
14 July - Louis Scullion, IRA Member
14 July - Edward Brady, IRA Member
16 July - Tobias Molloy, IRA Member
21 July - Joseph Downey, IRA Member
28 July - Seamus Cassidy, IRA Member
31 July - Seamus Bradley, IRA Member (Total: 10)
http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/chron/1972.html
(Note that although CAIN doesn't greatly elaborate, it can be seen that the vast majority - at least - were killed during gunfights or rioting etc).

Of course, even 10 deaths of innocent civilians are most serious and deserve further examination. But for Republicans to present even this reduced figure as "proof" of their case, without alluding to the greater context, is at best misleading and at worst malicious propaganda. For at least some of the remaining 10 civilians were caught up in exchanges of gunfire between the IRA and the Security Forces.

And what is also concealed by RFJ is just how violent, murderous and widespread was the disorder being faced by the Security Forces.

For example, during that same month, there was actually a total of 97 deaths. Twenty three of these were committed by "Loyalists" sic, whilst 51 were killed by the IRA (or other unnamed Republicans), including 28 civilians (20 Protestants and 8 RC's, btw). Republicans may also have been responsible for the murder of 2 further Protestant civilians (unattributed killings).

Included amongst this litany of death were the Bloody Friday Massacre, where the IRA murdered 9 people in a series of 20 no-warning bombs throughout Belfast, and the Claudy Massacre, where they murdered another 9 with 3 no-warning bombs.

In fact during that month, there were literally hundreds of shootings, bombings, riots and other disturbances, most of them the responsibility of the IRA/Republicans, which caused the deaths of 20 Members of the Security Forces.

In such a situation, it is a near miracle that the Security Forces didn't accidentally kill many more civilians, as they  fought to defend themselves and prevent the whole place sliding into all-out Civil War.

Me thinks you are missing a point here. Not just a point, but perhaps the biggest. As far as I know any crimes by the IRA were followed up with investigations and if caught were punished ( With or without evidence). The issue here is that the soldiers committing the crimes were not punished. In fact they received immunity by the state. It's actually a miracle that they got away with such disregard for human life and that there wasn't more violence as the nationalist community struggled to protect itself. 

[All of a Sludden]

EG seems to be unusually quiet this week, probably doing a bit of protesting. BBC NI are unusually quiet also.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1209/pat-finucane-murder-collusion-ruc.html

[charlieTully]

EG seems to be unusually quiet this week, probably doing a bit of protesting. BBC NI are unusually quiet also.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1209/pat-finucane-murder-collusion-ruc.html

Lying low no doubt. He will resurface at some stage. The joy is, the events off this week have rendered any future comments obsolete, unless of course he apologises unreservedly for the actions of his undemocratic brothers and sisters.

[LeoMc]

EG seems to be unusually quiet this week, probably doing a bit of protesting. BBC NI are unusually quiet also.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1209/pat-finucane-murder-collusion-ruc.html

Lying low no doubt. He will resurface at some stage. The joy is, the events off this week have rendered any future comments obsolete, unless of course he apologises unreservedly for the actions of his undemocratic brothers and sisters.

In fairness to him he wasn't exactly supporting them when you queried this earlier in the week.

Quote from: charlieTully on December 03, 2012, 09:35:59 PM
For once I am quite looking forward to what the evil genius has to say.

From what I've seen and read, these "Loyalists" [sic] seem to be the usual utter scum that gather on such occasions.

I'd love to see the Peelers baton them back under the rock from which they crawled, then reverse a Land Rover over it, but sadly, they'd probably complain that their "human rights" were being infringed, or something.

P.S. Did you expect me to say anything different?

[charlieTully]

EG seems to be unusually quiet this week, probably doing a bit of protesting. BBC NI are unusually quiet also.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1209/pat-finucane-murder-collusion-ruc.html

Lying low no doubt. He will resurface at some stage. The joy is, the events off this week have rendered any future comments obsolete, unless of course he apologises unreservedly for the actions of his undemocratic brothers and sisters.

In fairness to him he wasn't exactly supporting them when you queried this earlier in the week.

Quote from: charlieTully on December 03, 2012, 09:35:59 PM
For once I am quite looking forward to what the evil genius has to say.

From what I've seen and read, these "Loyalists" [sic] seem to be the usual utter scum that gather on such occasions.

I'd love to see the Peelers baton them back under the rock from which they crawled, then reverse a Land Rover over it, but sadly, they'd probably complain that their "human rights" were being infringed, or something.

P.S. Did you expect me to say anything different?

i took him at his word, but his absence since raises doubts, don't get me wrong i do have a begrudging respect, but if there was ever a time for him to be fighting the corner its now. maybe he is genuinely embarrassed by the whole thing. his comments on pat finucane remain unforgivable though,

[LeoMc]

EG seems to be unusually quiet this week, probably doing a bit of protesting. BBC NI are unusually quiet also.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1209/pat-finucane-murder-collusion-ruc.html

Lying low no doubt. He will resurface at some stage. The joy is, the events off this week have rendered any future comments obsolete, unless of course he apologises unreservedly for the actions of his undemocratic brothers and sisters.

In fairness to him he wasn't exactly supporting them when you queried this earlier in the week.

Quote from: charlieTully on December 03, 2012, 09:35:59 PM
For once I am quite looking forward to what the evil genius has to say.

From what I've seen and read, these "Loyalists" [sic] seem to be the usual utter scum that gather on such occasions.

I'd love to see the Peelers baton them back under the rock from which they crawled, then reverse a Land Rover over it, but sadly, they'd probably complain that their "human rights" were being infringed, or something.

P.S. Did you expect me to say anything different?

i took him at his word, but his absence since raises doubts, don't get me wrong i do have a begrudging respect, but if there was ever a time for him to be fighting the corner its now. maybe he is genuinely embarrassed by the whole thing. his comments on pat finucane remain unforgivable though,

There havn't been the same level of line by line rebuttals alright.
I would say you are not far off with the bit highlighted.

[Dougal Maguire]

Can' t understand how any of you can have any truck with the guy . He' s a complete bigot what else has him on here? Do any of you bother for instance to post on the O W C site?  His only reason for coming on herd is to spread his bile and hatred . I've been ignoring his posts for months and I feel much better for it

[All of a Sludden]

Do any of you bother for instance to post on the ICE site?

ICE site?

[Dougal Maguire]

I should be o w cc . Blame the kindle fire hd

[Tony Baloney]

I should be o w cc . Blame the kindle fire hd

Much better the second time 

[Dougal Maguire]

Kindle Fire H D for sale

[JUst retired]

Interesting comments on BBC news last night. A senior detective admitted he knew about the collusion in the Finnucane case after a few months. He knew MI5 were controlling special branch.
Why only now? EG`s comments would be helpful!

[haveaharp]

I've been ignoring his posts for months and I feel much better for it

You mean he bothered you that much in the first place ?

[Hardy]

What's with all this pathetic invocation of EG? Is this a variant of the "going out of your way to be offended" syndrome, whereby you go out of your way to find someone likely to have a different viewpoint to yourself (but only on occasions when you sense a potential opportunity to gloat and never on occasions when the shoe might be on the other foot)?

Or is it just another form of coat trailing/marching where you're not wanted, whereby a perceived victory (though that in itself is a pathetic view of the current situation) is worthless unless you can flaunt it before your perceived enemy?