British State Collusion

[deiseach]

Nally Stand believes that Pat Finucane wasn't in the IRA on the basis that the RUC was unable to find any evidence that says he was. Nally Stand maintains that people like Sean O'Callaghan are not to be believed. I'm curious to know his views on Adams, given that the RUC / British Army were unable to find enough evidence throughout the 70s and 80s to convict him of IRA membership. I'm also curious to know what he thinks about people like Marian Price, who maintains that Adams was her commanding officer.

Doesn't address my question. What does it mean for your train of thought if Nally Stand believes Gerry Adam was(n't) in the IRA? You're clearly going somewhere with this and it'd be nice if you spat it out

[Myles Na G.]

Nally Stand believes that Pat Finucane wasn't in the IRA on the basis that the RUC was unable to find any evidence that says he was. Nally Stand maintains that people like Sean O'Callaghan are not to be believed. I'm curious to know his views on Adams, given that the RUC / British Army were unable to find enough evidence throughout the 70s and 80s to convict him of IRA membership. I'm also curious to know what he thinks about people like Marian Price, who maintains that Adams was her commanding officer.

Doesn't address my question. What does it mean for your train of thought if Nally Stand believes Gerry Adam was(n't) in the IRA? You're clearly going somewhere with this and it'd be nice if you spat it out

It would be nice if NS spat out an answer too, don't you think? Bit unfair to ask me to provide my response to NS's answer when I don't know what that is!

[Rossfan]

He was an IRA man, he got shot, get over it.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/personal-view/3590237/Finucane-should-not-have-been-killed-but-he-was-in-the-IRA.html

[Rossfan]

1. PF was murdered.
2. There was British state involvement in his murder.
3. PF, like his brothers, was an active member of the IRA.

I repeat, he was in the IRA, he got shot, get over it.

[Rossfan]

[Finucane, who I no more believe to have been an "innocent man" than I believe eg Gerry Adams never to have been in the IRA.

[Nally Stand]

File reveals British Army immunity from prosecution was official policy

In 1972, 79 Irish people were shot dead by the British Army on Irish soil. The vast majority of these were civilians. In July 1972, a strategic government and security meeting at Stormont Castle was held, involving the Secretary for State William Whitelaw MP, the North's most senior British Army officer the General Officer Commanding (GOC) General Ford, the Deputy Chief Constable of the RUC, plus Lord Windlesham the British government's representative in the House of Lords, British MP's, and senior civil servants from the NIO. Relatives for Justice this week unearthed a document from this meeting. The document includes some striking quotes:

• That the GOC (the Head of the British Army in the north) "would see UDA leaders that afternoon" to let them know that their "efforts as vigilantes" were "acceptable".
• That it was the British Governments"intention to carry on the war with the IRA with the utmost vigour"
• And crucially,  'The (British) Army should not be inhibited in its campaign by the threat of court proceedings and should therefore be suitably indemnified."

This is the first documented proof of the British Government's determination to see no British Soldiers convicted for killings in Ireland. Of the approximate 300 hundreds killings by the British Army in Ireland since 1969, there has only been convictions in three cases. All of those convicted were released significantly early and reinstated back to their regiments. Some were promoted. As mentioned, this meeting took place in 1972. That year 79 people were shot by the British Army. The meeting took place in July. That month the British Army killed 20 innocent civilians. Not one British soldier faced a conviction for ANY of these killings throughout 1972.

In terms of the "acceptable" nature of the UDA's "vigilante activities"- the month this meeting was held, loyalists committed 27 sectarian murders. Over half of these (16) were carried out by the "acceptable" UDA.

[glens abu]

File reveals British Army immunity from prosecution was official policy

In 1972, 79 Irish people were shot dead by the British Army on Irish soil. The vast majority of these were civilians. In July 1972, a strategic government and security meeting at Stormont Castle was held, involving the Secretary for State William Whitelaw MP, the North's most senior British Army officer the General Officer Commanding (GOC) General Ford, the Deputy Chief Constable of the RUC, plus Lord Windlesham the British government's representative in the House of Lords, British MP's, and senior civil servants from the NIO. Relatives for Justice this week unearthed a document from this meeting. The document includes some striking quotes:

• That the GOC (the Head of the British Army in the north) "would see UDA leaders that afternoon" to let them know that their "efforts as vigilantes" were "acceptable".
• That it was the British Governments"intention to carry on the war with the IRA with the utmost vigour"
• And crucially,  'The (British) Army should not be inhibited in its campaign by the threat of court proceedings and should therefore be suitably indemnified."

This is the first documented proof of the British Government's determination to see no British Soldiers convicted for killings in Ireland. Of the approximate 300 hundreds killings by the British Army in Ireland since 1969, there has only been convictions in three cases. All of those convicted were released significantly early and reinstated back to their regiments. Some were promoted. As mentioned, this meeting took place in 1972. That year 79 people were shot by the British Army. The meeting took place in July. That month the British Army killed 20 innocent civilians. Not one British soldier faced a conviction for ANY of these killings throughout 1972.

In terms of the "acceptable" nature of the UDA's "vigilante activities"- the month this meeting was held, loyalists committed 27 sectarian murders. Over half of these (16) were carried out by the "acceptable" UDA.

It was terrible what went on in that year and the UDA/UVF came into Nationalist areas and killed with the help of the BA and RUC.I had a young cousin shot dead by UVF after coming out of a Mass for peace in Holy Family Chapel in June 72 and everyone knew who the killers were but they were able to drive past his home and abuse his family and other mourners.

[Nally Stand]

Just came across a BBC video on this story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18498301

[orangeman]

Just came across a BBC video on this story

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18498301

It's not like them to leave documents like this lying about.

Or was it left for a reason ?.

[Hardy]

It is amazing that they actually documented these decisions. It probably illustrates that the imperial mindset was still in place as recently as 1972 and they didn't consider themselves as amenable to international law and couldn't care less about local or international disapproval.

[Nally Stand]

I'd imagine there's a whole lot worse written documents that will never see the light of day, and many things I'm sure went unwritten. What's amazing is how little fuss there is about a document which proves the existence of a policy whereby an army was allowed to shoot innocent people in this country without having to worry about facing a court. The fact that the UDA was regarded as "acceptable" shows the mindset, also.

[Nally Stand]

Speaking of the UDA. In 2003, a document revealed that in November of the same year as the story above (1972), a letter sent from the Ministry of Defense to the prime minister, Edward Heath of the Conservative Party, described the UDA as "useful", "constructive" and "disciplined".

The same day the letter was dated, (Nov. 29, 1972), the UDA shot dead a 22 year old Catholic bar man. In just that one same month, they murdered five civilians.

[brokencrossbar1]

I'd imagine there's a whole lot worse written documents that will never see the light of day, and many things I'm sure wet unwritten. What's amazing is how little fuss there is about a document which proves the existence of a policy whereby an army was allowed to shoot innocent people in this country without having to worry about facing a court. The fact that the UDA was regarded as "acceptable" shows the mindset, also.

I am sure we will never find out where these soldiers actually were killed

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1345&dat=19850211&id=5P1LAAAAIBAJ&sjid=m_kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5159,1858697

[seafoid]

It is amazing that they actually documented these decisions. It probably illustrates that the imperial mindset was still in place as recently as 1972 and they didn't consider themselves as amenable to international law and couldn't care less about local or international disapproval.

Rhodesia was still going strong. SA was running apartheid and the Unionists had a similar mentality . It was only when economic reality hit home that things started to change . Belfast in the early 90s was desperate- there were very few places you could even got a coffee. The economy was in bits. 

Maybe too the younger generation of Protestants were different to their parents .

If the system can roll on and people can continue making money and the schools indoctrinate they'll do whatever no matter how foul it is. Just look at Israel today.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Quelle surprise...


British government: Ballymurphy Massacre investigation 'would not be in public interest'

20/06/2012 - 12:47:47
The British government has told the families of 11 people killed by British troops in the case known as the Ballymurphy Massacre that there will be no independent investigation of the deaths.

The relatives criticised the decision of Northern Ireland Secretary of State Owen Paterson and pledged to continue their campaign.

The innocent civilians who died after being shot and beaten by members of the Parachute Regiment in 1971 included a mother-of-eight and a Catholic priest tending to the wounded.

The deaths occurred during a security operation in the Ballymurphy area of west Belfast that stretched across August 9-11 following the introduction of internment without trial.

Military claims at the time that the victims were armed republicans were discredited and the families have called for an examination of the true facts of the case - which has been linked to the killing of civilians by the same regiment on Bloody Sunday in Derry.

A spokesman for the families said they are "deeply disappointed" by Mr Paterson's decision to turn down their request for an independent investigation.

"Mr Paterson, in his letter, has stated that it 'would not be in the public interest' that an independent investigation be established," they said.

"We refute this assertion and believe that is clearly in the 'public interest' that the full facts relating to the circumstances of the deaths of our loved ones and the role of the British Parachute Regiment is fully established.

"This is especially so given the recent findings of Lord Saville in relation to the events of Bloody Sunday and the disclosure of official British government documents which reveal evidence of immunity for British soldiers involved in the murder of innocent civilians."

Northern Ireland's Attorney General John Larkin has ordered that the inquests into the deaths be re-opened.

But the families rejected advice they said they received from Mr Paterson that other avenues were open to them, including the police Historical Enquiries Team (HET) which is examining murders from the Troubles.

The relatives said the HET's handling of cases where soldiers were responsible for deaths had been criticised in a major report into its work.

The relatives said: "Although the families regard the re-opening of the inquests by the Attorney General as a very important step on our journey for truth, we believe that even a fully resourced and effective inquest will have limitations.

"It will be able to provide facts and gather crucial forensic, logistical and witness testimony evidence, but it will not be able to examines the causes, context and consequences of the massacre and answer so many of the questions that must be answered.

"We believe that only an independent investigation can facilitate the discovery of the facts and provide an accurate historical account of the events of August 1971 on the streets of Ballymurphy."

They repeated a call for British Prime Minister David Cameron to meet directly with the families.

The campaigners also asked for Taoiseach Enda Kenny to back their cause, in the way he has publicly supported the family of solicitor Pat Finucane who was killed by loyalists acting in collusion with security forces.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/british-government-ballymurphy-massacre-investigation-would-not-be-in-public-interest-556025.html