British State Collusion

[Trout]

"As someone who believes in the Rule of Law, I have to be consistent and say that Finucane's murder was wrong, and the perpetrators should be brought to justice.
However, I am entirely comfortable with holding that view and at the same time having absolutely ZERO sympathy for the man himself, or the manner and timing of his death"

Now, where I wrote "Finucane", substitute eg "Billy Wright".

Get it now? 

that sums you and unionism/loyalism up alright - make crazed excuses for killing an innocent man and try to pass it off as an incident similar to a proven and self admitted convicted killer.
showing your true colours!!

I did not make any excuses for killing Finucane - any such killing is inexcusable, which is why I condemn it and would like to see the killers tried and convicted etc.

But that is out of concern for the Rule of Law, rather than for Finucane, who I no more believe to have been an "innocent man" than I believe eg Gerry Adams never to have been in the IRA.

There is plenty of evidence to presume Adams was in the Ra, what is there for Finucane?

Unless you live in the world of Nally Stand.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Trout, you have to admit that British collusion more than likely led to alot of innocent people dead on the streets of Dublin & Monaghan.

[Nally Stand]

Trout, you have to admit that British collusion more than likely led to alot of innocent people dead on the streets of Dublin & Monaghan.

....and Tyrone, and Antrim, and Derry, and Down, and Donegal, and Armagh and....

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Trout, you have to admit that British collusion more than likely led to alot of innocent people dead on the streets of Dublin & Monaghan.

....and Tyrone, and Antrim, and Derry, and Down, and Donegal, and Armagh and....

Yea Fermanagh and Cavan are safe 

[lynchbhoy]

that sums you and unionism/loyalism up alright - make crazed excuses for killing an innocent man and try to pass it off as an incident similar to a proven and self admitted convicted killer.
showing your true colours! I did not make any excuses for killing Finucane - any such killing is inexcusable, which is why I condemn it and would like to see the killers tried and convicted etc.

But that is out of concern for the Rule of Law, rather than for Finucane, who I no more believe to have been an "innocent man" than I believe eg Gerry Adams never to have been in the IRA.

your belief alright. ....based on resounding evidence !!
again it shows you and your ilk for what you really are.
the forked tongue and double standards of unionism/loyalism again !

[stew]

Myles, would you please let go of Gerry and Marty.  They're a red herring as far as the fundamental issue of this thread is concerned.

In your mindset, it is perfectly acceptable for the state to summarily execute its citizens without a trial, without evidence presented, without a defense mounted, without the not-yet-accused being able to be judged by his peers. 
WOW.

So your paragon of judicial excellence would be Don Corleone, is that right?  So screw fundamental human rights?

Myles, I don't know how old you are, but I'm thinking that even 1960's NI might be too tame a world for you.

Actually they're not. If there isn't enough evidence to convict Gerry of IRA membership, why should the case be different for PF?

Maybe because they were never in the IRA you eejit. Innocent until proven guilty and all that.

[Myles Na G.]

1. PF was murdered.
2. There was British state involvement in his murder.
3. PF, like his brothers, was an active member of the IRA.

As we're forever being told by republican and loyalist ex combatants (including one wannabee president), there was a conflict, bad things were done by all sides, but we have to look to the future and move on.

Except, it seems, when the victims were republicans, in which case the courts have to pay them compensation (75k for IRA man Aidan 'I didn't get the chance to surrender' McKeever) or governments have to indulge them with enquiries.

I repeat, he was in the IRA, he got shot, get over it.

Again, have you any proof he was in the IRA outside of the opinion of a british agent who is also a UUP advisor? Why would you believe someone like him over the independent team of the Stevens Inquiry and of the RUC, who both have clearly stated Pat Finucane was not a member of the IRA?

They didn't say that he wasn't in the IRA, they said that there was no evidence that he was in the IRA - different thing. Same way that there is no evidence that Gerry Adams was in the IRA, or no evidence that Marty was still in it after 1974. And why have you suddenly starting citing the RUC as a source you can believe in? Why do you rubbish O'Callaghan, but believe people like Adams and McGuinness, even though they have been caught out lying over and over again?

Which demonstrates my point- the RUC was a corrupt police state force and even they made no claims that he was in the IRA. I do trust the findings of the Stevens team who could find not one solitary shred of evidence that he was an IRA member. Surely if they cannot even find evidence to back up the claim, then you are probably not in any position to substantiate the claims that you present as fact. And why do I not believe Sean O'Callaghan? Hmmmm let me think   

You've missed, or side stepped, the point. The fact that the agencies you mention were unable to turn up evidence on PF's membership of the IRA is hardly surprising. As I've pointed out (and you've ignored) Gerry Adams has been a leader of the IRA for most of his adult life, yet they have never been able to evidence this. (the IRA's a SECRET organisation, geddit?) Gerry still lies about it, as does Marty. People like you either believe them, or choose to ignore their lies, yet you then castigate O'Callaghan for lying! Presumably you think Frank Hegarty's mother is a liar too?

OK I'll spell it out slowly.... the word of Sean O'Callaghan is not evidence. Just because you say witness statements are used in court does not mean that a court would believe any witness statement without regard. Does the word of a renowned liar who actively works for a unionist political party seem like a reliable piece of evidence which a court would accept as being enough to state as absolute fact, as you have done, that Pat Finucane was in the IRA? Bear in mind that neither the RUC nor the Stevens Inquiry team regard the word of Sean the tout O'Callaghan as evidence of what you present as fact.

And I'll spell it out for you once more, as you seem determined not to get the point: Gerry Adams, lifelong leader of the IRA, has never been convicted of IRA membership due to lack of evidence. However, noone seriously thinks he was never a member. What do you think? Was Gerry a member of the IRA? Likewise, there is no evidence that has so far emerged - other than the eyewitness O'Callaghan - that PF was an IRA member. Like Gerry, that doesn't mean he wasn't. Why do you think so many people within the British establishment were convinced PF was in the IRA? Perhaps it was because one or more of the many British agents operating at a high level within the Belfast IRA at that time were telling their handlers that this was the case. Not rocket science, really.

I don't know if you saw my post a while back where I outlined proof of O'Callaghan's tendency to lie (re: his attitude to the Ulster Unionist Party and whether he ever supported them). A few more little details about the man:


O'Callaghan also once stated that in 1990 he was told in Crumlin Road Jail, by Danny Morrison, of a secret IRA Army Council strategy which proves that the peace process is a sham. This despite the fact that he previously admitted that he was suspected of being a tout well before 1990, and in 1985 was under investigation by Tralee SF for embezzling several thousand pounds of party funds. Sound like someone Danny Morrison would tell a top secret IRA plot to? More-so when we consider that the peace process wasn't even started in 1990? Certainly the Gardai didn't trust him....in February 1997, Senior gardai told the Irish Independent that O'Callaghan's story was "highly exaggerated'' and dismissed his claims.

He is also a man who says he was the Head of Southern Command of the IRA and went to Army Council meetings during the same period when several of the IRA's largest arms shipments landed, and yet said he was not aware of any details of it, claimed he got word that something was afoot and warned his handlers, but nothing was done.



And you in this thread present this man's word as good enough for you to say that Finucane "was in the IRA"?

And you say that people in the British establishment were convinced he was in the IRA... surely the RUC would have found it easy enough to catch him out if he was seriously considered to have been a member?


LAUGHABLE

So once again you side step the Adams issue. LAUGHABLE.

[Myles Na G.]

1. PF was murdered.
2. There was British state involvement in his murder.
3. PF, like his brothers, was an active member of the IRA.
As we're forever being told by republican and loyalist ex combatants (including one wannabee president), there was a conflict, bad things were done by all sides, but we have to look to the future and move on.
Except, it seems, when the victims were republicans, in which case the courts have to pay them compensation (75k for IRA man Aidan 'I didn't get the chance to surrender' McKeever) or governments have to indulge them with enquiries.
I repeat, he was in the IRA, he got shot, get over it.

I dont even think your loyalist brethren even believe he was in the IRA.

Here's a quote from OWC on the subject:

'I just heard Mrs Finucane on Talkback, not happy etc......what I didn't hear (as ever) was any questioning of why her husband was targetted in the first place.
Whilst I don't wish to condone murder, as a human being I find it hard any sympathy whatsoever for the death of someone who was so obviously an active member of a sectarian murder gang.'

As usual LB, you have your finger on the pulse of unionist / loyalist opinion. 

glad I dont !
Delighted to be on a different wavelength from yourself and your owc loyalist scum

At least you're now admitting you're on a different wavelength. You're on a different planet, actually, in a galaxy far, far away, but one step at a time, eh?

[lynchbhoy]

1. PF was murdered.
2. There was British state involvement in his murder.
3. PF, like his brothers, was an active member of the IRA.
As we're forever being told by republican and loyalist ex combatants (including one wannabee president), there was a conflict, bad things were done by all sides, but we have to look to the future and move on.
Except, it seems, when the victims were republicans, in which case the courts have to pay them compensation (75k for IRA man Aidan 'I didn't get the chance to surrender' McKeever) or governments have to indulge them with enquiries.
I repeat, he was in the IRA, he got shot, get over it.

I dont even think your loyalist brethren even believe he was in the IRA.

Here's a quote from OWC on the subject:

'I just heard Mrs Finucane on Talkback, not happy etc......what I didn't hear (as ever) was any questioning of why her husband was targetted in the first place.
Whilst I don't wish to condone murder, as a human being I find it hard any sympathy whatsoever for the death of someone who was so obviously an active member of a sectarian murder gang.'

As usual LB, you have your finger on the pulse of unionist / loyalist opinion. 

glad I dont !
Delighted to be on a different wavelength from yourself and your owc loyalist scum

At least you're now admitting you're on a different wavelength. You're on a different planet, actually, in a galaxy far, far away, but one step at a time, eh?

yet still closer to reality than yourself looking at the absolute rubbish yer posting (all the time )!!

[Jim_Murphy_74]

As someone who believes in the Rule of Law, I have to be consistent and say that Finucane's murder was wrong*, and the perpetrators should be brought to justice.

However, I am entirely comfortable with holding that view and at the same time having absolutely ZERO sympathy for the man himself, or the manner and timing of his death. This is because I believe 100% that if Finucane was not actually a sworn "volunteer" like his brothers, then he was at the very least the IRA's favoured "In-House Lawyer". As such, his role in defending and covering up countless foul murders, indeed in assisting the murderers, actually makes him worse than those who merely pulled the trigger or set the timer, since he at least had many advantages such as talent, intelligence and education etc which he might have used for good.

And if nothing else, by the time I consider all the other uncounted, unrecorded and unrecognised victims who were genuinely innocent of any crime, I find I have no sympathy left for people who were involved in perpetuating the killings etc.

Of course, this means that I am drawn into creating "a hierarchy of victims". Then again, I simply cannot ever equate the suffering eg the two innocent children or Mr. and Mrs. Williamson, blown to pieces in the Shankill bomb, with that of Thomas Begley and Sean Kelly, the two bombers who were respectively killed and injured by their own device:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/294812.stm

And as for Finucane, where might he rank in this hierarchy? I'm afraid I can't say exactly, but I have no doubt whatever that it is rather closer to Begley and Kelly, than it is to the innocents who died in their bomb...

P.S. Which is also why I find it sickening that McGuinness and Co. are still banging on about a Public Inquiry for the likes of Finucane, yet when confronted by eg the sister of Mary Travers or the son of Pte. Patrick Kelly, we are lectured that we must either "move on" (Travers), or wait for a Truth and Reconciliation Commission [sic] (Kelly), when everyone knows that no such Commission will ever happen.



* - Actually, unlike eg Mitchell McLaughlin and his attitude to Jean McConville's murder, I would say Finucane's murder was both "wrong" AND a "crime".

I'm not sure if this reply is directed at me.   As I said I was willing to accept the allegations at face value.  (Even though I'm not aware of any evidence other than O'Callaghan's book). 

My point is that sympathy/dislike/hatred of Finucane is irrelevant to the subject of the thread.  Anyone who believes in the rule of law (as you say you do) should be supportive of an inquiry into how this happened.

/Jim.

[Nally Stand]

Well Jim, if it's O'Callaghan's accusation you are prepared to accept at face value, I would just remind you that there is plenty of evidence to illustrate that particular individual's fondness for compulsive lying.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Well Jim, if it's O'Callaghan's accusation you are prepared to accept at face value, I would just remind you that there is plenty of evidence to illustrate that particular individual's fondness for compulsive lying.

I said I accept it at face value for the purposes of the discussion.  In my first post I did say:

I read Sean O'Callaghan's book and he admits to lying all over the place.  Maybe it's just me but I got lost track in the middle of it about which ones were "good" and which were just plain old porkers.

In the context of your opening post, it matters not about Finucanes guilt or innocence.  Regardless of what one thinks of him, the summary and arbitrary nature of his killing should be unacceptable.

/Jim.

[Myles Na G.]

Well Jim, if it's O'Callaghan's accusation you are prepared to accept at face value, I would just remind you that there is plenty of evidence to illustrate that particular individual's fondness for compulsive lying.

Since you're on the subject of compulsive liars anyway, maybe you'll answer the question I asked you: do you think Gerry Adams was in the IRA?

[Oraisteach]

Jim, you hit the nail on the head.

[lynchbhoy]

Well Jim, if it's O'Callaghan's accusation you are prepared to accept at face value, I would just remind you that there is plenty of evidence to illustrate that particular individual's fondness for compulsive lying.

Since you're on the subject of compulsive liars anyway, maybe you'll answer the question I asked you: do you think Gerry Adams was in the IRA?

apologies for jumping in.
no the slithery hoor wasnt!
thats why I dont like him!