Would you be in favour of a second tier?

Started by sligoman2, June 26, 2017, 12:34:12 PM

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Would you be in favour of an alternative championship for Div 3 and 4 with winners and runners up rejoining the other championship.

Yes
136 (52.7%)
No
104 (40.3%)
Undecided
18 (7%)

Total Members Voted: 258

lenny

Quote from: Orchard park on October 26, 2018, 01:17:44 PM
Imagine if every vlub in your county could only participate in the SFC.......

That's what the current intercounty scene is

Ah but they just need to get off their arses and work harder. I can just see Ardmore taking on slaughtneil in Derry.

Blowitupref

Quote from: Rossfan on October 26, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Carlow's only notable scalp was Kildare in the Leinster in May 2018.
Their other scalps were against other basement or under achievers.
They may have got "off their arses" but getting promoted from D4 is the easy part.
Anyway well see what the CC come up with in November.

Wasn't that easy for them lets be fair.

Only 4 years ago they finished last in Div 4 and when you are that low you aren't expected to take any scalps.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

Esmarelda

So it looks like a B Championship. I've always thought that the players from the lower tier's opinion is the most important so so be it.

I find it very strange that two of the worst teams in the country are looking forward to a championship where (presumably) they'll be up against teams from the top half of Division 3. But let's wait and see what's put forward.

Rossfan

If they only took my proposal of Senior, Intermediate and Junior........
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Cunny Funt

Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed '60pc of football members now supporting a change', Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

"If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no," he told the Irish Independent. "But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

"No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

"It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway."

JoG2

Pete McGrath


"Obviously I'd need to see the blueprint whenever it comes out. They have to be smart about this.

"We all know there'd be a stigma attached to teams who are able to play only in a second or third tier.

"If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

"Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn't win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic."

Having departed Fermanagh after expressions of dressing room unrest, McGrath knows that keeping the players happy is key to any success:

"There would still be players who, whenever their county drops out of the main competition, would say 'I'm not committing to anything else, I've more to do with my time'.

"I don't know what the reaction would be, but we all know that mind-set is there. I was surprised to read that figure of 60 per cent [in favour of a change] because prior to that any players asked had said 'no'.

"Even those from smaller counties were adamant that they don't want to play in anything that's regarded as 'second tier' or however it's described.

"That also means 40 per cent weren't keen on change, and you have to look at that too."

Rossfan

Quote from: JoG2 on October 31, 2018, 03:46:22 PM
Pete McGrath




"If the GAA model it in such a way that, initially, every team is in the same competition: i.e., their provincial championship, which leads on to qualifiers and, ultimately, the Sam Maguire, then that would be OK.

"Then, at a certain point, if a county doesn't win its initial game or its second game, they play in a second tier competition – to me that would appear more democratic."



They already had that Pete  - Tommy Murphy Cup ;)
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

twohands!!!

Quote from: Cunny Funt on October 31, 2018, 03:26:02 PM
Carlow All-Star nominee Paul Broderick has reiterated his opposition to the introduction of a second-tier football championship.

Reacting to the results of the recent GPA survey which revealed '60pc of football members now supporting a change', Tinryland clubman Broderick refused to budge on his stance on the issue.

"If you asked me would I like to play in a second-tier championship, the answer would be no," he told the Irish Independent. "But if you asked me do I think we're going to win the All-Ireland in the 'A', the answer is no as well.

"No disrespect to the teams who'd be playing, we're one of those who would be playing in a second tier, but they're not going to garner the same respect and enthusiasm from the public in Carlow.

"It's hard to know without trialling something like this, but it was trialled before and it didn't work. For whatever reasons, I'm not sure. At the moment I wouldn't be in favour of it. Not the way it's currently put forward anyway."

With respect I think Broderick is probably  placing a bit too much emphasis on Carlow's results in 2018 in terms of the wins over Louth and Kildare.
It's worth remembering that Louth played 10 games between league and championship and won 1 - against London; while Kildare played 15 and won 4 - Derry, Longford, Mayo and Fermanagh)
So while they had two wins against top 16 opposition, both of those teams had poor (if not miserable) seasons, with a combined record of played 25 won 5.
These stats are even a bit deceptive in that the loss to Carlow was a nadir for Kildare and they won their 4 games after this and Louth won their 1 game after this, so the record of the two teams Carlow beat was played 14 lost 14 for the year when Carlow played them.

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.

Teams Carlow have beaten in the championship from 2009 onwards (2008 was the last year of the Tommy Murphy Cup)
2018   Louth - relegated from Division 2
2018   Kildare - relegated from Division 1
2017   Wexford - promoted from Division 4
2017   London - bottom of Division 4
2017   Leitrim - 5th in Division 4
2016   Wicklow - 5th in Division 4
2014   Waterford - 5th in Division 4
2011   Louth - promoted from Division 3

Teams Carlow have lost to in the championship from 2009 onwards
2018   Laois
2018   Tyrone
2017   Dublin
2017   Monaghan
2016   Louth
2016   Cavan
2015   Laois
2015   Longford
2014   Meath
2014   Clare
2013   Westmeath
2013   Laois
2012   Meath
2012   Laois
2011   Wexford
2011   Antrim
2010   Wicklow
2010   Derry
2009   Louth
2009   Donegal






Cunny Funt

Quote from: twohands!!! on October 31, 2018, 10:37:51 PM

2017 is a perfect example of why Carlow should be playing in a 2nd Tier competition - they lucked out in terms of the draw and had 3 competitive games against Division 4 opposition, which they won, but when they played Division 1 sides they lost convincingly.
Lost convincingly in the end but you shouldn't forget what happened during those games which was competitive displays and a few Div 2 teams haven't managed to do that against those teams.

Dublin 0-10 Carlow 0-6 after 50mins then Brendan Murphy was sent off
Carlow 1-6 Monaghan 0-10 after 65 mins then a goal from Fintan Kelly



The point Broderick was making is he and his team mates would prefer to test themselves against top sides where the interest and enthusiasm from the public is high than playing in a 2nd tier championship.

Rossfan

This won't be going to 2019 Congress I believe.
CC seeking consensus on whether it should be for all D3/4 Counties or only those that lose in Round 1 or of Qualifiers.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

seafoid

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/move-towards-two-speed-championship-picks-up-pace-1.3866238

Move towards two-speed championship picks up pace
Two options for proposed competition circulated to Division Three and Four counties
Sat, Apr 20, 2019, 10:00

Seán Moran

 

Moves towards a Tier 2 football championship quickened this week with a meeting in Croke Park, attended by the counties likely to be involved in such a departure – those from Divisions Three and Four. Two options for the proposed competition have been circulated to the counties with a view to bringing the more popular one to a special congress next autumn.
Division Three is likely to be defined as that constituted by the end of the league and this year that would mean Cork and Tipperary, the counties relegated from Division Two, and not Westmeath and Laois, who travelled in the other direction.
The choice is between a competition that begins as soon as counties are defeated in the provincial championships – unless they qualify for the final in which case they stay involved in the Sam Maguire – and one that allows counties to contest one or two rounds of the All-Ireland qualifiers.
Those at Monday's meeting appeared more favourably disposed towards the former although support for the latter was more pronounced amongst the player representatives, who attended on behalf of the counties along with their Central Council delegates.
Developments are marking quite a turnaround from just three years ago when Croke Park had to pull a motion on a proposed 'B' All-Ireland, restricted to Division Four counties, at the very start of the 2016 annual congress in Carlow. Part of the influence on that decision was the implacable opposition of the counties concerned and also the Gaelic Players Association.
By last November, the GPA signalled a change of mind on foot of a survey, indicating that 60 per cent of footballers now support the concept of a Tier 2 championship.
Amongst the findings were that 90 per cent of hurlers were happy that they had sufficient matches against teams of equal standard – unsurprisingly, as there are now five different championship tiers in the game – whereas the comparable figure for footballers was 53 per cent.

Counties have also begun to see the merit in the idea. Wicklow were early advocates of the competition and submitted detailed proposals last autumn, including the stipulation that counties entering the new championship would not contest the qualifiers.
There was irony in this because when the GAA previously attempted to introduce this type of streaming by directing all Division Four counties straight into the Tommy Murphy Cup and not allowing them to enter the qualifiers, it was a Wicklow motion that reversed the decision in 2008.
There was vindication when in 2009 Wicklow enjoyed its most successful season in the qualifiers, reaching the fourth round at which stage they lost to Kildare.

Two finals
The county's Central Council delegate Martin Coleman says that the unhappiness in the county wasn't based on objecting to the idea of a Tier 2 competition and also explains the current rationale.
"We weren't against the Tommy Murphy Cup, just the way it was scheduled and the complete lack of promotion. We were lucky enough to get to two finals and we had to play when there was only seagulls in Croke Park. The plans for this are better. This is giving every county in Division Three and Four a chance.
"The way I look at it is that if you get a fairly substantial beating in the province and then go into the qualifiers and get another beating, the attitude isn't going to be right going into another competition."
The question of profile frequently arises when Tier 2 championships are debated. As Coleman recounts, the Murphy Cup might have been played on the same bill as big matches in Croke Park but generally so early in the day that few apart from the counties involved were in attendance.
Securing dates for the new competition will be a challenge, as the GAA currently operates a very condensed calendar of matches in order to clear the way for additional weekends for club activity.
The GAA view is however that it should be possible to utilise the spare fixture space generated by the reduction in qualifier matches and maybe even find a stand-alone Sunday for a semi-finals double bill at Croke Park.
Whether this would guarantee media coverage is moot. Sceptical players point to the relative obscurity of even the most advanced graded championships in hurling, the Ring and McDonagh Cups, as an example of how Tier 2 competitions can slip off the radar.
Another of the main objections to filtering Division Three and Four counties out of the qualifiers is that it would slam the door on some of the most romantic achievements in qualifiers-era football. Counties like Wexford and Tipperary reached All-Ireland semi-finals, having come from Division Three but such feats were rarities.
On average just one county per annum from outside of the league's top 16 has reached the last eight of the All-Ireland football championship since the quarter-finals were introduced in 2001.
Shane Mulligan played for Longford for 10 years before stepping down four seasons ago and last year enjoyed an historic provincial title with his club, Mullinalaghta.
Giantkilling displays
"I understand why players want that opportunity, one crack at it because on any given day, a result can go any way. That's a draw for players in a summer championship. There are pros and cons."
He believes though that a Tier 2 structure would benefit counties like his by providing a more competitive schedule and a more orderly pathway to improvement and holds that view despite having played in a number of Longford's great giantkilling displays in the qualifiers, days when Mayo and Derry were beaten and Kerry given a rattle.
"Yeah. I think there's definitely a debate to be had. I'm looking back having played 10 years and gone through it and personally, my best memories were of those competitive days – we had some great Division Three finals in Croke Park – and I know we had some huge upsets when we took big scalps on a given day but I think it's about progression because it was too topsy-turvy to get a big result and then go to a poor performance against a lesser team."
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

twohands!!!


Esmarelda

You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

twohands!!!

Quote from: Esmarelda on May 08, 2019, 07:51:43 PM
You'd have to admire his optimism if he thinks London have a chance of winning a competition involving Division 3 teams.

Well they did just give Galway a Division 1 team a bit of bother at the weekend.
I'd imagine that he feels that London might have some sort of chance of winning something in a 2nd tier but with the current system there is no chance whatsoever.

Esmarelda

A third or fourth tier might make more sense. Unless the powers that be are just trying to get the dross away from the main event.