gaaboard.com

This is scary

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2016/02/11/the-collision-sport-on-trial/

"Iron Mike" Webster was a Hall of Fame center who played for the Pittsburgh Steelers, won four Super Bowl rings, and died in 2002 at age fifty. By then he was a broken man who lived in a pickup truck, estranged from his family, shocking himself with a Taser and attaching his teeth with superglue. It was his brain tissue that Dr. Bennet Omalu—the main character in Concussion—examined at the Allegheny County Coroner's Office in Pittsburgh, leading to the discovery of CTE.

Chris Borland was an inside linebacker who played one brilliant season for the San Francisco 49ers, then retired in March 2015 at age twenty-four after studying the potential long-term effects the game might have on his brain. "I want to be seventy-five and healthy if possible," he told Rebecca Carpenter in her documentary. One magazine labeled him "the most dangerous man in football."

No scene in the dramatization Concussion can match the agony of watching John Hilton, who played tight end in the NFL from 1964 to 1974, lose his train of thought, his eyes watering, a look of sheer desperation washing over him, as he tries to explain his mental condition; or the pain on the face of the wife of Mike Pyle, a center for the 1963 champion Chicago Bears, as she tells Carpenter, "One day you wake up and think, I don't have a husband anymore. He's sitting next to me, but..." The current estimates are that nearly 30 percent of all NFL players will suffer some form of dementia over the next sixty-five years. Most players, unlike Borland, will still say it is worth the risk. But David Hovda, the head of UCLA's Brain Injury Research Center, explained to Carpenter, "Brain injury does not happen to one person. It happens to an entire family."

Rebecca Carpenter had spent years trying to understand her father, Lew, who grew up near the cotton fields of the Arkansas Delta, started as a running back at the University of Arkansas, and became a football lifer, ten years as a player, a coach for thirty-one more. On the field, Rebecca said, "he was beautiful, and I mean really, really beautiful," but at home his anger and withdrawal had cast a shadow over her childhood and later became so pronounced that his wife, after a long and loving marriage, felt no choice but to leave him.

When he died at age seventy-eight in 2010, his family received an inquiry from Ann McKee, the neuropathologist in Boston. She had read Carpenter's obituary, saw that he ostensibly had never suffered a concussion during his career, and asked whether his brain could be examined as a control in the CTE studies. The family agreed, and months later Rebecca was in Boston looking through a microscope at the brown strands of tau protein that had riddled her father's diseased brain tissue. McKee said to her, "On a scale of one to four, four being the worst, your father was a four."

Since it cannot be diagnosed in living players, CTE is not a fully understood disease. Its symptoms appear to vary widely from severe dementia to depression to bursts of anger. But Lew Carpenter's brain reinforced what leading neuroscientists now believe—that it is not severe concussions so much as the repetitive subconcussive blows that football players endure over a career that are more often the cause, the toll of thousands of collisions and jarring movements that shake the brain inside the skull. This calls into question whether the NFL's concussion protocols and changes in rules can fix things

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

And the NFL denied that CTE existed for years

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/soccer-player-diagnosed-cte-brings-sports-risks/story?id=22697477

Jeff Astle died from concussion related injuries
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhydSUnnn9Q

Quote from: seafoid on February 08, 2016, 04:54:50 PM
By then he was a broken man who lived in a pickup truck, estranged from his family, shocking himself with a Taser and attaching his teeth with superglue.

That's hardcore. The story of Derek Boogarde "the boogeyman", an ice hockey enforcer was scary and fascinating too. Dead of a drug and alcohol overdose at the of 28. Became addicted to copious amounts of painkillers as the effects of thousands of fist fights took effect on his body and brain.

When I watch rugby matches I seriously worry about the future wellbeing of those guys.

Quote from: magpie seanie on February 09, 2016, 10:26:48 PM
When I watch rugby matches I seriously worry about the future wellbeing of those guys.

Me too. And it's not worth 100K

Interesting interview here on off the ball with the doctor who discovered CTE. Scary stuff and it also shows how every organisation circles the wagons when threatened. Hard to argue with his recommendations re children and their sporting activities.

http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/news/972.973/10720 (http://offtheball.newstalk.com/player/news/972.973/10720)

IT

The agenda behind Eddie Jones's comments about Johnny Sexton's parents being worried for their son's welfare was painfully obvious. Subtlety is clearly not a priority if this is the height of rugby 'mind games.' But they had a resonance. Digs only really work if they do.
Sexton accused Jones of jumping on the bandwagon in regard to head injuries which has been a hot topic in not just rugby for some time now. Sexton's agenda is obvious too. He would rather not be the public face of concussion, especially, as he pointed out, since when he's been forced out of action it has been mostly due to other stuff.
It's the accumulation of various injuries in recent years that has rugby fans wincing on the Irish out-half's behalf whenever he doesn't immediately bounce back to his feet after a 'hit.' The concern is both an expression of his value to the Irish team as well as admiration at his courage. And it's not just Sexton.
An undertow of players needing to be saved from themselves has coursed through this debate which has professional rugby players embraced by the 'something must be done' brigade who as per usual are as vague about the precise 'something' as they are vehement it has to be done. And it's rubbish.
What's legitimate is rugby putting in place, and being seen to put in place, all the necessary protocols and medical checks to cope with head injuries once they occur, because they will happen. Sexton has ticked every required box and is free to do whatever he wants. And what he wants is to continue playing professional rugby.
Clive James once pointed out how "the injuries acquired from pursuing free activities are small cause for pity." It perfectly sums up how when so many unfortunates suffer injuries from activities they have no choice over at all that the consequences of grown-up sportspeople choosing to put their bodies on the line needs to be put in proper context.
Sexton is big enough and old enough to decide for himself what he wants to do within the rules. Yes, there's a competitive culture which says no player wants to come off the pitch - or field of battle depending on your fondness for bellicose imagery - although it's possible sometimes to wonder if at least some of that is machismo. But ultimately it is players' choice.
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Second Captains
This idea of saving professional rugby players from themselves is facile.
That isn't indulging in posturing foolery about society being 'namby-pambyed,' or health-and-safety gelding us of our competitive instincts. It is a reminder of how ultimately nobody is being forced at gunpoint to play rugby or anything else which carries a risk of serious injury.
So Jones drilling for the nerve actually wasn't half as interesting as the vehement response, which basically boiled down to it being dirty pool to bring someone's family into it.
There's a weird subconscious schoolyard feel to that, all 'don't talk about me Ma,' an assumption that family considerations are somehow irrelevant to this big-boy game, when in fact for rugby as a whole they are likely to increasingly prove very relevant indeed.
Since Jones was plainly just looking to unsettle one of Ireland's best players, and Sexton pointed out how it is on his family that the impact of inaccurate commentary and speculation is most felt, the Irishman is entitled to feel sore in his own specific small-picture case.
But I think the Australian's comments unwittingly, and maybe even subliminally, touched on what's going to become a major big-picture issue for rugby as a whole. Because compared to most sports, rugby in particular isn't immune to what Ma thinks.
Sexton is 30 years of age, a parent himself, brought up in the rugby culture, and well able to make his own mind up. But every parent knows worry automatically comes with the job and rugby's long-term challenge could increasingly be in convincing parents the game isn't one worry too far when it comes to their kids.
Many parents who, theoretically at least, still control the extent of a youngster's choice, and are not immersed in the rugby culture, must look at the modern game and shudder at the potential physical cost to their nearest and most expensive should they choose to play it.
Yes the weekend action in Twickenham was thrilling but it was brutal too. Admiration at the commitment mixed uneasily with wincing at massed ranks of gymmed-up behemoths repeatedly smacking into each other. Incident wise, it may have been more attractive than the muscle-bound skittling which normally characterises the Six Nations but the physical toll was still colossal.
That Conor Murray's kick to the head was this time the most notable incident in terms of player welfare, and meant the game was commonly regarded as being thankfully free of serious injury, says plenty about what kind of walking wounded benchmark there is in professional rugby.
So one match without a player having to be helped from the pitch won't alter how the game continues to revolve around fearsomely powerful teams colliding off each other with no handy 'something' on the horizon that's going to change that.
It's not like any counter-intuitive physical regression is on the cards: rugby is nothing without its famous physicality so inevitably it's going to get even more physical. That's why I reckon Jones's comments resonated, just not in the way he intended.
The England coach was getting in a dig for a specific reason to unsettle a specific player. In the wider context though it will resonate because how many parents look at the modern professional game and wonder if it's something for a talented kid to aspire to?

Was talking to a lad last night at a hurling wall session we were running. His 11 year old is in hospital since Sunday with concussion picked up playing rugby. As I said before, I picked up concussions playing Gaelic Football and Soccer, but in 2 of the instances it was due to hitting the ground with my noggin. Rugby has an issue and it has to deal with it. The physical collision is so integral to the game, that unless they do something along the lines of what Dinny was saying earlier, it's going to end up having change imposed upon it somewhere in the world via law.

o   http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11264856

My battle with concussion
By Steve Deane

Shontayne Hape played international league for the Kiwis and international rugby for England - until repeated head injuries ended his career and threatened his future health.

Growing up playing league in New Zealand, everyone got knocked out at some point. Everyone got concussed. I can't think of a single guy I played with who didn't. You just got up and played on. We were told to be Warriors. It's the nature of the sport. Harden up. That was the mentality. I was brought up with that.
I reckon I'd have been concussed 20 times by the time my professional league career with the Warriors, Bradford and the Kiwis ended with a switch to English rugby. That was nothing compared to what was to come.
After playing for England at the rugby union world cup in 2011 I joined London Irish for the 2011/12 season.
Halfway into the season against Gloucester I copped a knee to the head and was knocked out. I told the club's medical staff I'd copped a head knock, but didn't admit the full extent of it, that I'd blacked out. The next week against Harlequins I copped another knock. It was a pure accident. Our lock Nick Kennedy kneed me in the temple and it put me straight to sleep. Concussion on concussion. That was the big one for me, the worst I've ever felt.

The following day I was to undertake some head questionnaire tests relating to how I was feeling and my symptoms, and the results were shocking - some of the worst they'd ever seen. They stood me down for eight weeks, which was the protocol.
I've always loved music. DJ-ing is my hobby and I have my own turntables and gear at home. But the effects of the concussion meant I couldn't bear to listen to music. The sound was too much. Sunlight was a problem too. I had to stay in a blacked-out room for days. I'd bike to training and by the time I'd get there my head would be throbbing and I'd have to go home to rest. My tolerance for my three young kids was zero. I was always angry around them, couldn't even last a minute without getting cross and losing my cool.

My relationship with my wife Liana suffered. She was left to manage the three children and household on her own, while I tried to get my head right.
By the time my stand-down was over there was only three or four games left in the season, so there was no point in coming back. That meant I'd had a four-month break by the time I arrived in the south of France to play for Montpellier in the French Top 14 competition.

WHEN I came down here everything was cool. I felt fresh and had been cleared to play. I felt like my concussion problems were behind me. I was actually more worried about the state of my knees.
In England it is a standard procedure for all players to perform a computerised pre-season head test. There are a few different versions of the test used around the world, but they are all basically the same thing. They take about 10 minutes sitting at a computer. The test establishes a baseline score that you'll have to match later in the season if you cop a head knock. The problem with the test is that players can manipulate it by under-performing so that later if you have a head knock and you have to beat it you normally can. In my league days the boys all beat the test and everyone kept on playing.

In the back of your mind you are aware of the dangers, but you are paid to get out there and play and you want to play. You never think anything bad is going to happen to you. So you just do it.
Some clubs don't even bother with the computerised test. You evaluate yourself through a questionnaire. When I got knocked out the first time at Montpellier I just said 'oh nah I'm fine'. They ask if you were dizzy, feeling fatigued, in a daze, headaches, etc, on a scale of 0-10. If your total score was too high you'd be stood down.

That first French concussion came in my fifth game, against Toulon. I clashed heads with someone in a ruck. I felt terrible, but decided to bite the bullet. When you come to a new club and you are an international player you are supposed to impress. I was on the biggest contract of my career, so there was a load of pressure to deliver. You don't want to let anybody down. You have to be out there playing.
I played the next week and got knocked out again. A prop was running past me and accidently kneed me in the head as I off-loaded a ball. It was just slight tap but it got me in the wrong place. This time I was really worried. They rested me for a week. That's the French rest. Normally you'd have two-four weeks of doing nothing. In France it was 'okay we'll rest you for a week and you'll be fine'.
There was constant pressure from the coaches. Most coaches don't care about what happens later on in your life. It is about the here and now. Everyone wants success. They just think 'if we pay you this you are going to do this'.
Players are just pieces of meat. When the meat gets too old and past its use-by date, the club just buys some more. You get meat that's bruised or damaged, the club goes and buys some more.
I sat out for a week but I wasn't right. I was back to having constant migraines. I was pretty much in a daze. Things had got so bad I couldn't even remember my PIN number. My card got swallowed up twice. My memory was shot.
Dosing up on smelling salts, Panadol, high caffeine sports drinks and any medical drugs like that to try and stop the dizziness, fatigue and migraines was the only way I could get through trainings and matches.
I went through the next four or five months like that. Pretty much a zombie.
LOOKING BACK I could have prevented a lot of the pain I caused myself by telling the doctors much earlier how I really felt. But I wasn't thinking straight. You are under constant pressure from all angles - coaches, team mates, fans - and you don't want to let them down. I also wanted to play on to achieve my bonuses, especially when you know your career is coming to an end.
Somehow I got through 11 games but by then I was falling apart. I would try not to get involved in rucks because I was terrified of getting knocked out again. My performances were terrible and eventually I was dropped. It was the first time I'd ever been happy about it. I was just happy I was going to give my head a rest.
I had three weeks of no games and I thought that would sort me out. But heading into my comeback match I was knocked out at training. It wasn't even a head clash. One of the boys just ran a decoy line and bumped into me and I was knocked out. When you are getting knocked out and no one is even touching your head you realise things have got pretty bad.
But I still didn't tell anyone. I played the match and got knocked out in the first tackle. I tackled a guy and I was out. Asleep.
I'd been telling the docs on the field that it was my shoulder, I had a stinger, or I was just a little dazed. But after the game I knew I had to do something. I phoned my mum and my agent. They said I had to put my health first. At a team meeting our coach Fabien Galthie, a former French halfback, grilled me for lying in the ruck and giving a penalty away. I didn't want to admit that I was lying there was because I had been knocked out. It was humiliating. Galthie was blowing me up in front of my team mates and I just held my tongue.
Afterwards he came to me to talk about my performance. I was like "I'm over it, I have to come clean". I told him the reason I had given away the penalty and my performances had been below par was because I was knocked out and suffering from concussions. He couldn't believe it.
The club sent me to the Montpellier Hospital for scans. Sitting in a dark room with electrodes attached to my head looking a big blue screen, I felt like a patient in a psychiatric hospital.
I was told to count in my head while doctors monitored my brain function. I did tests for memory and vision. They show me seven or eight pictures of, say, a tree, couch, bird or a bike. When they turned the page and asked me what I'd just seen I could only remember one or two things. The specialist showed me on chart the average score for someone with a normal brain. My score was just above someone with learning difficulties.The specialist explained that my brain was so traumatised, had swollen so big that even just getting a tap to the body would knock me out.
He referred to me to another top specialist in Paris but he was very clear - I had to retire immediately.
Back at the club I broke down in tears telling Galthie.
Everyone dreams of going out on the right note, winning a final and going out with everything intact. I had been told I couldn't do what I'd been doing all my life. I was gutted. The club was shocked.
But even then they tried to overrule the medical advice. They said they'd rest me for a couple of months and see if I could recover.
I knew I was being told it was over but I'd heard of guys taking six-month sabbaticals and coming back. I got in touch with Michael Lipman, the former Bath captain, who had been forced to retire by multiple concussions. He said he'd experienced exactly the same stuff that was going on with me, and advised me to listen to the specialists and stop playing.

But you just think "this is my living, this is what I do". I'd had three reconstructions and barely any cartilage left, so I always thought I'd retire because of my knee. The docs tell you "we can fix that, we can get a new knee, we can fix that shoulder". But with your head, you only get one head.
I knew that, but I still couldn't accept it was over.
I was thinking I'd rest for a year and then make come back. That's why I never told anyone I was retired.
To go with the denial, I went into depression. I was lucky I had some great support around me, from my wife, family and the players association in England.
The RPA and my good mate Nigel Vagana and Paul Heptonstall of NRL Welfare & Education team are putting some great things in place to help players transition to the next stage of their lives, but it's still incredibly tough dealing with the fact you are washed up in your early 30s.
In January I finally accepted it was all over. I'd read about a young club player in Auckland who died after suffering a head knock in a game. My fourth child was on its way. I was 33. Was playing for one more year really worth risking my life?
I've suffered depression, constant migraines and memory loss. I can see now the improvements I've made. I've completed an online brain training course and have started studying for a BA (Hons) Degree in Leadership and Management.
TRYING TO learn again is a challenge. I can remember things that happened a long time ago but things that happened yesterday, names, numbers and stuff, I constantly forget.
Growing up I used to wonder what was wrong with my granddad when he couldn't remember things. I'm not a granddad, I'm in my 30s. I've got the concentration span of a little kid. My oldest son can sit at the table and do stuff for hours. When I do my university assignments I struggle. Half an hour and that's me.
I am in a much better place now that I'm not getting beaten up every week. But I do worry about Alzheimer's and dementia. The doctors can't tell me what is going to happen to me in 10 years time. Research has shown that's when it catches up with you.
I'm not telling my story because I want sympathy. I'm telling it because this is an issue people, particularly young players, need to know about. More people need to speak out about it, tell the truth if they are suffering. Most players won't, though, for fear of being thought of as soft or because of the financial pressures.
Rugby and league have come a long way in dealing with concussion but there is still a lot further to go.
Recently I watched a quarterfinal between Toulouse and Racing Metro. Florian Fritz got knocked out, blood pissing out everywhere. He was totally in Lala Land. He came off and a medic came out of the tunnel and told him to get back on. He did but he was in no [fit] state. I see stuff like that all the time. It's what I used to do.
Fans used to see that sort of thing and go "Wow, he's tough". We need to change that mentality.
Young players don't fully understand the risks of playing on with concussion. The most dangerous thing with concussion is that it's an injury you can't see. That makes it easy to ignore - something that happens far too often.

Mark Chisholm, an Australian second row with Munster was concussed in March and is still suffering symptoms.

Benjamin Robinson died playing a schools match in NI. His parents have issued proceedings against the IRFU and WRU in the Belfast High Court

Parents of rugby player Benjamin Robinson issue legal proceedings
Governing bodies including IRFU and World Rugby named in case in Belfast High Court
about 19 hours ago
Johnny Watterson, Gavin Cummiskey

Ben Robinson died as a result of second impact syndrome suffered in a match for Carrickfergus Grammar School in Januray 2011.

The parents of Benjamin Robinson, the Carrickfergus Grammar School rugby player who died as a result of head injuries sustained in a rugby match in January 2011, have issued legal proceedings in Belfast High Court against a number of rugby institutions and two individuals.
The Irish Rugby Football Union (IRFU), Ulster Rugby, World Rugby, Carrickfergus Grammar School, the coach of the school team Neal Kennedy and the referee, David Brown, who officiated at the match have all been named in the writ. Proceedings in the matter are well advanced.
Benjamin (14) died in the Royal Victoria Hospital on January 31st 2011 as a result of head injuries sustained during this match. A statement to The Irish Times explains that legal proceedings have been taken "for negligence regarding concussive type injuries and the safety and management of the game and their failures in their duty of care owed to Benjamin."
It is the first case of its kind to be taken in Ireland concerning a death due to Second Impact Syndrome, where an injury already sustained causes swelling to the brain and the player receives another blow that causes further injury and in this instance the death of the teenager.
"At Benjamin's inquest, the Coroner determined that Benjamin's cause of death was Second Impact Syndrome due to head injuries he sustained during the rugby match," said the statement. "The Family's legal team have gathered further evidence to confirm that Benjamin's death was due to Second Impact Syndrome and was preventable."
The statement alleges that there were numerous opportunities for those in charge to notice that Benjamin had sustained several concussive type head injuries.

Gerry Thornley: Rugby should be alarmed as concussion issue hits crossroads
GAA to adhere to current concussion protocals
Universal approach for treating sports concussion urged
The summons set out by the family solicitors, who are GR Ingram and Co, has gone out to six defendants. It contains the statement of claim, which outlines the allegations and the relief sought by the Robinson family.
ADVERTISEMENT

The full statement reads:
"Benjamin sustained a serious head injury at Carrickfergus Grammar School during a Medallion Shield rugby match on 29th January 2011.
During this match, there were numerous opportunities for those in charge to notice that Benjamin had sustained several concussive type head injuries.
It is the case of Benjamin's parents and family that Carrickfergus Grammar School, the Irish Rugby Football Union, the Ulster Branch of the Irish Rugby Football Union and World Rugby were in charge of disseminating information with regard to the risks of concussion in rugby and therefore, the Coach of the schoolboy rugby team and the Referee should have been aware or should have had the means of being aware that concussion is dangerous and could result in death.
As a result of head injuries sustained during this rugby match, Benjamin died in the Royal Victoria Hospital on the 31st January 2011.
Karen Walton [Benjamin's mother] and Benjamin's family have issued Civil Proceedings in Belfast High Court against the School, the Coach, the Referee, the IRFU, the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and World Rugby for negligence regarding concussive type injuries and the safety and management of the game and their failures in their duty of care owed to Benjamin.
The Coach and the Referee were responsible for the safety of the players and those in control administratively: the School, the IRFU, the Ulster Branch of the IRFU and World Rugby, were responsible for ensuring that all parties were aware of the dangers of head injuries sustained playing rugby.
At Benjamin's inquest, the Coroner determined that Benjamin's cause of death was Second Impact Syndrome due to head injuries he sustained during the rugby match. The Family's legal team have gathered further evidence to confirm that Benjamin's death was due to Second Impact Syndrome and was preventable.
Proceedings are well advanced. A Writ of Summons has been served on 6 Defendants by GR Ingram & Co. Solicitors on behalf of the family. Our Solicitors and Counsel are in the process of drafting and issuing a Statement of Claim."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2017/03/30/fa-finally-opens-study-link-football-dementia-victory-telegraph/

Quote from: seafoid on August 05, 2016, 09:43:38 AM
Mark Chisholm, an Australian second row with Munster was concussed in March and is still suffering symptoms.

Coincidentally, this thread was resurrected today, when Chisholm is in line to make his first appearance in a year. He has missed the entire year due to that concussion. I'd be very worried about him going back playing if that concussion was so severe.

Cillian O'Connor (and Donie Vaughan) suffered heavy concussions on Sunday last in Healy Park. Everyone has chosen to ignore the distressed state both were in and how they were not forced to go off the field earlier. Also the Gaa totally ignored dealing with the dangerous play involved in giving them their concussions.

Rory O'Carroll in that All Ireland was disgraceful too. Chap hadn't a clue where he was.

Didn't Cillian O'Connor get a concussion courtesy of AOS in an AI semi I think a couple of years back? From following the NFL the trend seems to be that recovery times get longer with each occurrence.

Quote from: From the Bunker on March 31, 2017, 03:32:13 PM
Cillian O'Connor (and Donie Vaughan) suffered heavy concussions on Sunday last in Healy Park. Everyone has chosen to ignore the distressed state both were in and how they were not forced to go off the field earlier. Also the Gaa totally ignored dealing with the dangerous play involved in giving them their concussions.

The decision to ignore the distressed state they were in lies at the feet of the Mayo medical staff, no one else outside of the Mayo management could voluntarily remove them from the game.

The way rugby has gone with the huge players and strength of them u will probably see a lot of players with brain damage in 15/20 years , think of a player like Cj stander how many times in a game does he put his head down and charge into 2/3 players with the impact probably equal to a car crash .
The cumulative damage of this must be severe on the brain .

Quote from: Gmac on April 01, 2017, 04:42:30 AM
The way rugby has gone with the huge players and strength of them u will probably see a lot of players with brain damage in 15/20 years , think of a player like Cj stander how many times in a game does he put his head down and charge into 2/3 players with the impact probably equal to a car crash .
The cumulative damage of this must be severe on the brain .

I read Stephen Ferris' book a while back and he referred to this. He reckons 10 years at professional level in rugby will prove to be a long career. From the tracking devices they wear they can monitor the G forces of collisions and they are equivalent to a couple of car crashes a game. Thing is though if you're in a car crash it's usually just one impact and you don't go out nest week and get into multiple car crashes again!

O'Driscoll talks in his book about a tackle he shipped in 2013 (I think?) from Scott Williams.  It was clocked by the GPS monitor in his jersey at 27g.  That's almost twice the acceleration of a fighter jet's ejector seat!

Every so often GAA throws up a concussion but rugby is a sport of collisions. How are the IRFU etc going to pay for the inevitable lawsuits to come?

https://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/world-rugby-asked-to-consider-reducing-legal-tackle-height-as-number-of-concussions-increase-again-36745865.html

I'm currently suffering a concussion after a bad car accident last week. Absolutely horrible. Anything to reduce it for sportsmen should be looked at.

Sorry to hear that David. It's a bollix. I've had several myself, and what I noticed was I got the last one a lot easier than the first.

Had 1 really bad one. Playing in a game and i fell asleep On the bus home. Next thing i remember is waking up in the hospital. Don't remember the game or anything apart from falling asleep. Kept in the hospital overnight. Scary stuff

Quote from: David McKeown on March 26, 2018, 09:27:47 PM
I'm currently suffering a concussion after a bad car accident last week. Absolutely horrible. Anything to reduce it for sportsmen should be looked at.

Hope you have a good lawyer looking after you, if you're stuck there are a few on here that could give you some good advice  ;)

Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on March 26, 2018, 11:55:50 PM
Had 1 really bad one. Playing in a game and i fell asleep On the bus home. Next thing i remember is waking up in the hospital. Don't remember the game or anything apart from falling asleep. Kept in the hospital overnight. Scary stuff

As you sure you woke up, we could all be just a creation of your nightmares?

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2018, 09:17:07 AM

Quote from: David McKeown on March 26, 2018, 09:27:47 PM
I'm currently suffering a concussion after a bad car accident last week. Absolutely horrible. Anything to reduce it for sportsmen should be looked at.

Hope you have a good lawyer looking after you, if you're stuck there are a few on here that could give you some good advice  ;)

Is there any point it won't matter if Syf ends up as the judge.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 26, 2018, 11:22:12 PM
Sorry to hear that David. It's a bollix. I've had several myself, and what I noticed was I got the last one a lot easier than the first.

Thanks. Yeah I had a few over the years but this ones been going 5 days now. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irish-rugby-players-to-be-part-of-concussion-group-lawsuit-1.4431012

Irish rugby players to be part of concussion group lawsuit
Over 70 players will be part of litigation with IRFU expected to become involved
about 3 hours ago Updated: about an hour ago
Johnny Watterson
Many of the players involved are former internationals from Six Nations Championship unions, all of whom sustained head injuries. Photograph: Dan Sheridan/Inpho


A company recently set up in London has written to up to 10 Irish rugby players seeking their permission to be included in a group lawsuit with over 70 other players from around Britain.

It is believed that Irish players are not involved in the first block of cases the company is taking against World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and the Welsh Rugby Union.

However, according to a source in London there will be Irish involvement in the next wave of suits with the IRFU expected to become embroiled in future litigation.

The group lawsuit pertains to concussion the Irish players suffered during their playing careers. All of them have now retired due to concerns over the lasting effects of repeated brain injury.

"We have had no contact," said the IRFU in an email yesterday when asked if they were aware of pending litigation.

Many of the players are former internationals from Six Nations Championship unions, all of whom sustained head injuries and suffered from typical concussion symptoms of migraine, loss of memory, insomnia and depression.

The emails, sent to the Irish players last summer say how a new law firm, Ryland Legal Limited, put together by solicitor and director Richard Bordman, were setting up in London and were in the process of putting together a large legal action against various governing bodies to seek damages for retired players in relation to the brain injuries they had suffered.

"We have over 70 former players, including 10 from Ireland, showing symptoms suggesting neurological complications, such as migraines, loss of memory, insomnia, depression and an inability to concentrate. Once we go public, we believe we will be looking at an epidemic.
The email names John Foy QC as the lead counsel and Dr Steve Allder as the expert neurologist. Foy, a highly experienced lawyer, specialises in serious personal injury and clinical negligence cases, occupational disease litigation and costs.

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'Would I do it again? No I wouldn't': England's Steve Thompson on life with dementia
Dr Allder is a Consultant Neurologist at Re:Cognition Health. He is currently using his clinical expertise to focus on the assessment of patients with traumatic brain injury. He has sub-specialist interest in acute brain injury, cerebrovascular disease, dizziness and medically unexplained symptoms.

"We have over 70 former players, including 10 from Ireland, showing symptoms suggesting neurological complications, such as migraines, loss of memory, insomnia, depression and an inability to concentrate," explains the email sent to Irish players. "Once we go public, we believe we will be looking at an epidemic.

" The reason I write is that I would be keen to speak to you about your own experiences with this issue in rugby.

"Our aims are twofold: 1) to secure financial support for our former players in retirement; and 2) to ensure that current and future players are fully educated on the risks involved in playing, as well as adequately protected. As you know, the NFL has gone through something similar (with a group action), and the sport has never been stronger – nor safer.

"If you fancy a chat, do let me know a convenient time/date and the best way to contact you."

Irish players, who have retired directly due to traumatic head injury while playing rugby include Peter Browne, Declan Fitzpatrick, John Fogarty, Bernard Jackman, Ben Marshall, Kevin McLaughlin, Dave McSharry, Dominic Ryan, Nathan White and Cillian Willis.

It is uncertain if any have agreed to participate in the group action.

The cases could change the nature of the way rugby is conducted with demands to World Rugby also attached to the civil cases. These include limited contact in training, limiting the number of replacements per game, concussion spotters with authority to remove, career-long central database chronicling injury history and the banning of zero hour contracts. They also urge critical research into frontrow forwards by independent academics.

In a class action taken against the NFL in 2012, thousands of players became involved with estimates at a payout set at up to $1 billion.

Ryan is one of the two most recent Irish players along with Ulster secondrow, Browne forced to retire from concussion in 2018. Ryan was 28-years-old and Browne 30-years-old.

The youngest Irish players to retire were 26-year-old Dave McSharry and Ben Marshall, McSharry retiring in 2016 and Marshall, who was playing with Connacht at the time, in 2017. The first two Irish players to retire because of their head injuries were both Ireland hookers, Bernard Jackman and John Fogarty, who stood down in 2010.

It will not be the first time a civil action has been taken in Ireland. A case was initiated in Northern Ireland following the death of Benjamin Robinson from a serious form of concussion, Second Impact Syndrome. The 14-year-old schoolboy did not recover following a series of concussive collisions during a schools rugby match in Carrickfergus Grammar School in 2011.

The named participants in the action were the referee, the school coach, the school, the Ulster Branch, the IRFU and World Rugby. A legal team assembled by World Rugby contested the family's claims. It ran for six years and finally came to a conclusion in December 2019, when all parties signed a non-disclosure agreement covering precise details.

Yes, i read that article. It was inevitable really that such a case (s) would be taken. Reading Bernard Jackman's book and the head injuries he received was sobering. Bound to have ling term repercussions. How many times have Sexton or North received concussions?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/2020/12/10/pressure-mounting-rugby-authorities/

Pressure is mounting on the rugby authorities
The diagnosis of brain damage among a number of former professionals is a dark shadow over the game

TELEGRAPH VIEW
10 December 2020 • 6:00am
Ever since elite rugby union became a professional game in the mid-1990s, the players have become stronger, fitter and bigger. Many centres and wingers today are the size of forwards in the old amateur days. The game is much more intense at the breakdown, with bone-crunching clear-outs and midfield tackles that can be felt in the stands, or at least could be when crowds were allowed.

Among the consequences of this mix of power and bulk are a lengthy list of injuries, regularly stripping international and premiership teams of many of their best players. But now there is a darker shadow over the game, the diagnosis of brain damage in a number of former professionals. Steve Thompson, the England hooker in the team that won the World Cup in 2003, says he cannot remember the event. He is just 42. He and several other ex-players have joined a legal action that is confronting the game's administrators with some very unpalatable choices.

This issue appears to be associated predominantly with professional rather than amateur rugby, but both have had to respond to safety concerns. Players hit on the head are required to leave the pitch for concussion tests and are rested for weeks if there is any recurrence. Tackling anywhere above the shoulder is now routinely penalised. But a proven link between rugby and degenerative neurological disorders caused by repeated blows to the head, not just in matches but in training, is a different matter entirely.

A class action against rugby's ruling bodies, possibly by dozens of ex-professionals, will bring pressure to limit physical contact that will change the nature of the game.

And people think Gaelic football has problems as a sport

I remember reading Dominic Ryan's article when he retired, frightening

One of the few things George Hook was right about in his life that was that rugby as a sport was unsustainable with the amount collisions in it in the modern era

Quote from: sid waddell on December 10, 2020, 10:21:59 PM
And people think Gaelic football has problems as a sport

I remember reading Dominic Ryan's article when he retired, frightening

One of the few things George Hook was right about in his life that was that rugby as a sport was unsustainable with the amount collisions in it in the modern era

True, it's serious heavy hitting stuff around the head and upper body.

Gaa stuff is child's play in comparsion.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/the-offload-no-eddie-rugby-is-not-a-safer-sport-1.4435735

The Offload: No Eddie, rugby is not a safer sport

Gavin Cummiskey


Junior Seau was the epitome of an NFL linebacker. A 12-time Pro Bowler for the Chargers, the Dolphins and the Patriots, Seau is the cautionary tale that rugby can no longer afford to ignore.

American football has already experienced rugby's incoming post career issues with traumatic brain injury (TBI). The next chapter in the concussion narrative is a spate of domestic violence incidents by ex-players suffering from undiagnosed Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy.

"And to presume otherwise would be to repeat the mistake of assuming you had to be a boxer to get CTE," said Dr Willie Stewart, a leading expert in TBI, four years ago. "[HEAD BLOWS] arrive with as high, if not higher frequency, over a career in rugby than American football."

After the violence come the suicides that will lead to documentaries like League of Denialas - children and wives explaining how their father and husband shot himself in the chest so his brain could be preserved for science. Junior Seau pulled the trigger in 2012 aged 43.

Then comes the multi-million-euro settlements alongside a reduction of contact in training as doctors attempt to examine swollen brains, armed with a set of questions (that players will memorise) in a 15 minute window.

Despite what Eddie Jones stated last week, rugby is not a safer sport. The players are leaner, stronger, faster. Never forget that former All Black John Kirwan recently called for a removal of red cards for head shots.

Caelan Doris was concussed twice last season. Last week James Ryan left the field against Scotland for a Head Injury Assessment. Ryan was deemed to have recovered inside seven days. These young, super talented athletes trust that they are receiving the safest possible treatment for brain injuries despite Dr Barry O'Driscoll and Dr Stewart both stating since 2016 that the HIA is deeply flawed.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/gordon-d-arcy-my-dementia-fears-for-the-future-after-rugby-and-the-damage-done-1.4437737

Gordon D'Arcy: My dementia fears for the future after rugby and the damage done

In early 2000s nothing was more important than playing on after receiving a heavy blow. Nothing
Wed, Dec 16, 2020, 05:30

Gordon D'Arcy



Iforgot my phone number recently and panicked. I doubt it was what I fear the most but a shiver went down my spine.

Eventually the 10 digits came back to me.

It is important to remember our concussion stories. Not as important as the technology that is needed to protect rugby players from traumatic brain injury (TBI).

In 2001 the Irish lads returning from the Lions tour of Australia kept going on about the English players' physiques. They were enormous specimens. Second hand stuff about the Leicester Tigers tearing each other to shreds became first-hand accounts by Mal O'Kelly.

Mal spent that summer down under fighting Martin Johnson and Danny Grewcock mid-week - thankfully Jeremy Davidson had his back - so they were ready for whatever John Eales and Justin Harrison threw at them on the weekend.

Around this time Steve Thompson described the barbaric double training sessions for Northampton and in England camp.

I remember watching Leinster forwards trudge in from their second battering on a Tuesday evening. We – the backs – would be showered, dressed and getting on with our lives while our heavies would be in some state. Bloodied and bruised, not by choice but a necessity to prepare for Jonno's Leicester because we now knew that was how they prepared to hurt us.

The brutality of rugby union in the early 2000s was best summed up by a drill Willie Anderson came up with called Murder Ball. There was no end game, no tries, no scoreboard either. Just two fully stacked XVs squeezed into a quarter of the pitch. The intention was to harden us up ahead of the weekend. Murder Ball struck a primal chord. It was about "sorting the men from boys" with the added threat of "you'll get injured if you're not going full bore."


That was the culture when Steve Thompson, Alix Popham and Michael Lipman suffered the damage that has led to dementia at the age of 40.

Back then, nothing was more important than playing on after suffering a heavy blow. Nothing.

Thankfully I am not writing about myself. I was a winger during the period when rugby was knowingly or unknowingly failing to protect its players. The courts will decide which. Back then, Irish provinces played half the number of games as the English clubs so I like to think I avoided the sub-concussive blows that are chasing so many of my peers into retirement.

Only time will tell.

Worst charge
I have had four serious concussions. Four that I could not hide. Again, that was the culture; to say you were seeing stars or, worse, the black lights of unconsciousness, was to admit to being soft (and as Rassie Erasmus will learn during the 2023 World Cup pool stages, that is the worst charge that can be levelled at a rugby player).

My first serious blow to the head happened as a schoolboy playing for Clongowes. I was knocked out. They sat me down for three weeks. The others were quickly identified by the late Professor Arthur Tanner and Dr Éanna Falvey, a super-heavyweight national champion and the current chief medical officer for World Rugby.

I remember 'The Prof's' words in 2012 as the blood flowed down my forehead and into my eyes: "Hang on Gordon while I check on Brad Thorn's knee - it must be in terrible shape."

'Are you joking!?'

"Yes," Arthur smiled. "Come on, let's patch you up."


The last concussion happened against Australia in 2014. Yet again, I was stunned by friendly fire in a ruck. You never want to leave a Test match and as Dr Falvey eased me down the tunnel I protested: 'Seriously Éanna, I am grand.'


"Let's get you assessed so."

He sat me down in the changing room and asked some basic questions that I could not answer.

"What about the assessment?" I protested but Éanna was already back on the touchline. I was concussed which meant I was disorientated which meant I wanted to play on.

The sensation caused by brain injury is similar to driving without full control of the wheel. Somebody else is steering as you try desperately to wrest back control. Only problem is you have forgotten where you are going.

Steve Thompson's generation – my generation – were not protected enough to avoid early onset dementia and CTE. I do wonder what the future holds. I can only hope the changes made as professionalism evolved will be enough to avoid what is happening to Steve, Alix, Michael and others.

I wish someone yelled "stop" at Leinster training during the early 2000s. What we were doing was considered best practice when, in fact, those double sessions were insanity. We knew we were irrevocably damaging our bodies. We didn't know it would lead to what Steve is experiencing. Not to our generation. Not so soon.

But here we are.

I presume the legal argument for the 70-plus compensation cases in the UK will focus on what the authorities did or did not do with the medical knowledge they possessed. Discovering how much information, if any, was hidden from the players will sway the overall judgement. Coaches and administrators will be called to answer tough questions. Their testimony will make for deeply unpleasant reading but this process can help to future proof our game.

If it even gets that far. In 2014 the NFL settled with its players for $1 billion because legal advice suggested a greater financial hit in court.

Rugby and science must focus on protecting the twenty-something hookers and "kamikaze" flankers (the nickname given to Tom Curry and Sam Underhill by their teammates). Otherwise, another ex-player will be struggling to write this same article in 2030.


We can save multiple lives by introducing preseason brain scans. Boxing, both amateur and professional, has been doing this for decades.

I would take issue with the argument of reducing contact in training. I hear what Dr Willie Stewart – a leading expert in TBI – is saying: in 2011 American Football brought in a once a week rule for "full contact padded practices."

But this is not the hill rugby fights concussion on. The conditioning coaches have already crossed that bridge. The double sessions of a Tuesday were shelved by the 2010s. A spike in all sorts of injuries, increased games and education around concussion saw to that.

I struggle to see the value of further reducing body to body sessions and I'll tell you why: tackling, being tackled, rucking and scrummaging are skills a player must constantly hone.

Essential preparation
Tackle technique was an essential part of my preparation for the Saturday afternoons that I man-marked Manu Tuilagi and Mathieu Bastareaud. I was giving up 20kg to these men. If I didn't perform extra tackle drills on similarly shaped bodies not only would I become a speed bump, I would be putting myself in harm's way with no muscle memory developed to avoid spilling my own blood on the grass.

I know the scientists will disagree but limited, specific contact sessions remain essential preparation.

Same goes for the work John Fogarty does with the Ireland scrum before locking horns with Mako Vunipola or the next gigantic frontrow that comes looking for Andrew Porter and Cian Healy.

I remember the match in Italy that effectively ended Fogarty's career. And, for a period, changed his life. I remember him fumbling around for the ball before attempting a dive pass to Isa Nacewa that made him look like he was on the other team. We would laugh about it now if the consequences were not so frightening.


In the months that followed Fogs suffered, literally, in the dark. We still existed in a culture of silence. No rugby player wants to be seen as soft. So we got up and attempted to play on.

That was professional rugby in its first iteration. Thankfully that attitude was fading, the dinosaurs all but extinct, when I retired in 2015.

I do remember when the penny dropped. Every evening in Ireland camp the next day's itinerary would be slid under the bedroom door. The next morning we gathered for a mandatory presentation by an independent doctor who explained how concussive impacts alter a person's brain function. There was a video that showed Rob Kearney trying to get back to his feet and into the defensive line. Delayed neural pathways had Rob stumbling about like Charlie Chaplin. We would laugh about it now if the consequences were not so frightening.

The mood in the room was far from comical. Most people remembered another piece of paper that would be slid under our doors in previous years. All it said was: "Get In The Line."

No matter what was wrong, you got up and made your tackle.

Our job was extremely dangerous. We knew this. Nobody was getting up and walking away from a six figure salary. Nobody was yelling "stop." Not that it would have made any difference.

Zero tolerance needed for head shots
I hope John Kirwan continues to reflect on his recent words about abandoning the red card sanction for a head shot. The former All Black has a huge global reach and zero tolerance for this very act is one way the current generation can improve their chances of avoiding TBI, dementia and CTE.


Concussion does not appear to be an immediate problem in the professional game. The game's reliance on the Head Injury Assessment may eventually rubbish these words but, right now, it is the amateur player that needs additional protection.

Crucial to this is showing children how to give and receive contact. It is just as important as teaching a six-year-old to scoop the sliotar onto their hurley.

Grassroots coaching, to my mind, is rugby's salvation.

But for the past few days I have barely considered the future of the game. Nor am I concerned as a father of three children, two of whom are already swinging away for Ranelagh Gaels. To be honest, what is happening to Steve Thompson has me worried about my own health because the damage has already been done.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/former-players-launch-concussion-claim-against-rugby-authorities-1.4439507

Former players launch concussion claim against rugby authorities
More players have joined including Adam Hughes who, at 30, is the youngest of the group

Andy Bull

Lawyers representing former rugby union players have taken a decisive step in their legal action against the game's authorities, issuing a pre-action letter of claim to World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and Welsh Rugby Union.

Rylands Law, which announced the move on Thursday, revealed that two more players, Adam Hughes, a former Welsh under-20 international, and Neil Spence, a former England under-21 international, have joined the claim made by players over the impact of head injuries suffered during their careers.

Four more players have also joined the action, but wish to remain anonymous at this point, which brings the total number involved in the test case to nine. The firm are already representing over 100 former rugby players aged in their 20s to 50s, and say that 30 more have contacted them since Thompson, Popham and Lipman's involvement in the case was revealed by The Guardian last week.

Hughes, only 30, is the youngest player involved in the action so far. He has been diagnosed with "having brain injuries and post-concussion symptoms", and has been advised that he is on a similar medical trajectory to Popham, Lipman, Thompson, and Spence, who have all been diagnosed with early onset dementia and probable CTE. His testimony is a chilling counter to the argument that the game has become safer in the last decade.


Hughes played as a centre for the Dragons, Bristol, and the Exeter Chiefs between 2010 and 2018. He was forced to retire at the age of 28 after a particularly severe concussion. "It was just one head knock too many. I was finding it more and more difficult to recover from each and every bang to the head," Hughes says. He reports being knocked out eight times in his career. "At first it was the bigger concussions where I was completely knocked out that took me ages to recover from then over the time even the smaller ones started to have an impact. For the sake of my health, I had to bring it to a halt.


"For me, I think the biggest issue around concussions was attitude," Hughes says. "It was often treated like a weakness if you don't dust yourself down and carry on. So naturally you see many players expert at just getting up and carrying on, regardless of how they feel. Ultimately, it's their job, and no player wants to lose their job."

Hughes admits that he knew the risks involved, but argues that "if there were opportunities to make the game safer, and I believe there were, then it was incumbent on those with power to do so. The game still has a very long way to go in terms of education about concussion."

Spence, 44, who played in the back row for Leicester, Gloucester and Rotherham Titans, says "I've lost count of the number of concussions and head injuries I have had through my career. In fact, I used to judge how well I had played based on how fuzzy-headed I felt at the end of a game." He reports suffering from "mood swings, anxiety attacks, depression and anger issues".

The pre-action letters of claim set out the broad allegations upon which the claims are based. It states that that governing bodies had a duty "to take such steps and to devise and implement such rules and regulations as were required in order to remove, reduce or minimize the risks of permanent brain damage as a consequence of the known and foreseeable risk of concussive and sub-concussive injuries." The governing bodies have a maximum of three months from the date of acknowledgment of the Letter of Claim to provide their initial responses.

Shortly after the pre-action letter of claim was launched on Thursday the governing bodies released a join statement which read: "World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and Welsh Rugby Union can confirm they have received a letter of claim from solicitors representing certain players and will now take time to consider its contents. We have been deeply saddened to hear the brave personal accounts from former players. We will continue to use medical evidence and research to keep evolving our approach. As with any potential legal proceedings, it would be inappropriate to comment on the specifics of the letter."– Guardian

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/matt-williams-players-must-be-educated-to-take-responsibility-for-their-own-brain-health-1.4439795

Matt Williams: Players must be educated to take responsibility for their own brain health
The will to keep getting selected or prolonging careers can lead players to hiding symptoms
19/12/20

Matt Williams



Leinster's Dominic Ryan is tackled by Michael Lipman (right) and Tim Davidson of the Melbourne Rebels during a pre-season friendly at Donnybrook in August 2011. Photograph: Ryan Byrne/Inpho
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The heartbreaking stories of former England internationals Michael Lipman and Steve Thompson, who are dealing with the horrors caused by brain trauma, were deeply confronting. It is impossible not to be moved by their situation.
In recent years World Rugby has taken some credible steps in dealing with concussion. Despite these efforts, everyone linked with the game knows that many more significant changes to the laws and concussion management for player safety are essential.
In Ireland's recent match against Scotland, anyone who witnessed Andrew Porter, with Iain Henderson bound to his back, running at full pace and smashing into Stuart Hogg to clear him out, will know the game must change. Hogg was bent over a tackled Irish player, "jackling" for the ball. It is an extremely dangerous and vulnerable position. Under the law it was a legal act and Porter and Henderson are blameless. How Hogg stood up uninjured after that collision was miraculous.
That sickening type of collision happens multiple times in every game. World Rugby must use great wisdom but they must act swiftly to change the law to make the tackle contest safe.
In the 1980s rugby went through a similar period of crisis regarding player safety. Many players across the globe suffered serious spinal injuries during scrums. With law changes and player education, scrums are now very safe.
Caution to change the laws needs to be balanced with haste because rugby must ensure that the present generation of players do not walk down the same path as Lipman and Thompson.
Despite the current narrative being pushed across the globe, the responsibility of how rugby reached this crisis point does not rest solely on the shoulders of the law makers.
There is an aspect to these terrible stories in this concussion crisis that belongs to the individuals.
The men who are now dealing with brain trauma were mature adults when they were suffering repeated concussions. Some were senior internationals. Why did they not stop playing? Why did they continue playing into their mid-30s with repeated concussions?
Where was their personal responsibility for their own health in their playing days?
Michael Lipman was born in England and brought up in Australia. I knew Michael during his schoolboy days at St Joseph's College in Sydney and we met during his playing days in England where he played for Bath and England, before returning to play Super Rugby in Melbourne.
Michael is a very good man.
In July 2012, he did an interview for the Sydney Morning Herald with journalist Stathi Paxinos. The words from that interview now make very uncomfortable reading.
"The openside breakaway [flanker] estimates he has had more than 30 cases (of concussion) throughout his career.
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"I don't regret it at all. It was my decision to keep going,'' says Lipman. "A couple of professors said you should retire but I always thought there was a lot more rugby in me and I didn't really think anything of it at the time.
"I probably should have [told Bath about the medical advice] but at the same time I wanted to keep playing and I wanted another contract,'' he says. "If you let them know that you have got this advice, then they'll never give you a contract. So you've got to keep it to yourself, because at the end of the day I want to play rugby and to do that you've got to hold things in, and that was all my decision.
"When I had medicals [for the Rebels] I told them I've had a few knocks here and there but never really told them the true extent of what it was, but you've got to do that to get a contract.''
"I really should have hung up the boots, but Melbourne were really great and gave me the opportunity.
"I was like, 'I'm a rugby player, I'm going to keep playing because that's what I do'. I loved the game and just wanted to keep doing it and I thought that was the right decision."
I am very surprised that these words never found their way into the current conversation regarding brain trauma in rugby.
From this interview, it is obvious, that Michael was aware of his repeated concussions during his playing days.
I suspect those words do not fit into the current politically accepted narrative that all the blame for head trauma sits entirely with the game and those who were playing are blameless for their circumstance.
Last year I spoke to a former All Black, who told me he had multiple concussions and he hid many from the medical staff.
I have heard that story from so many players. They hid their concussions and the symptoms from family, coaches and medical staff because they wanted to keep being selected to play.
To admit to being concussed was to miss selection, or worse to miss a contract.
There is no argument that World Rugby must change many laws and a multitude of concussion protocols but I am convinced that current and future players must be better educated so that the individual has the power and knowledge to make the correct decisions surrounding their brain health than past generations.
What I am sure of is that no player must ever again be allowed to reach the level of damage that Thompson, Lipman and others appear to have been allowed to reach.
Every individual player from the junior clubs, through the AIL, up to the highest levels of the international game have a responsibility to understand the risks and the great joys of playing. Then base their decisions on medical science, not newspaper articles. None of which, including this one, are scientific papers on concussion.
Which brings us to the baseless conspiracy myth that is attempting to drive fear across the rugby community. This false narrative attempts to connect the failings in American NFL, brought to life with dramatic terror in the movie "Concussion" and link these horrific practices directly to rugby.
CTE (chronic traumatic encephalopathy) is a degenerative brain disease that was found during post mortem dissections of NFL players' brains. CTE was found in these past players who were exposed to horrific coaching practices that caused devastating brain injuries.
Those NFL players were coached to drive their heads, straight into the chest of their rushing opponent or to tackle, by aiming their heads at the runner's knees. They did this repeatedly from the ages of 10 or 12 until they retired in their 30s. At every practice and game, day after day, week after week, year after year, they drove their heads, with full force, into the middle of their opponent's chest or at their moving knees.
These horrific coaching concepts, in no way shape or form, have even the slightest resemblance to any coaching methods in rugby. Any attempt to reference rugby and what occurred in the NFL's past and the movie "Concussion" needs to be called out for what they are – baseless, scaremongering lies.
CTE is real. Concussions and brain injury have happened in rugby far too often, but I have never witnessed or heard of any rugby coach telling his or her players to use their head as a weapon on contact. Rugby educates players to do the exact opposite and place your head behind the ball carrier, not in front.
Brains in rugby are injured by other factors besides physical trauma.
I played with three men who now have serious cognitive damage. All have a long history of alcohol and substance abuse.
We know that excessive abuse of alcohol or drugs can cause damage to the brain and accelerate cognitive decline. A medical research study in Winnipeg Canada and published in the National Library of Medicine found that a staggering 35 per cent of the general population over 40 years of age had CTE at autopsy. This is commonly associated with drug and alcohol abuse. The authors say: "We conclude that CTE-like findings are not confined to professional athletes; the risk factors of head injury and substance abuse are similar in the routine population."
If there was ever a sentence that tells you that the narrative on this incredibly important topic has been injected with zealots' fear and we, the rugby community, have not been provided with exact medical science, that's it.
A leading Australian sports lawyer told me that any legal action regarding brain trauma and rugby will examine, with forensic detail, players' past habits with alcohol and substances.
There are many rugby players, past and present, whose relationship with alcohol and substances has not been healthy for their brain. That is the harsh reality.
The English Rugby League great James Graham has pledged his brain to science to aid in concussion research. When asked if he was worried if his playing days would have an affect on his brain in later life, he answered, "It's my brain. I will do with it what I want."
It is essential that today's and tomorrow's players are educated to do not only what they want with their brains, but to do what is right.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/owen-doyle-world-rugby-needs-to-end-dangerous-clean-outs-and-quickly-1.4443151

The ruck law states – 'joining a ruck' – arriving players must be on their feet; they may join alongside but not in front of the hindmost player; they must bind onto a team-mate or opponent.
"Joining" indicates that a controlled entry is required.
And, by the way, the definition of 'binding' is: grasping another player firmly between the shoulders and the hips with the whole arm in contact from hand to shoulder. Furthermore, players must try and stay on their feet.
All of that is the complete polar opposite of what is happening. Rugby is flagrantly abusing its own laws, not to mention tinkering around with the very defined World Rugby protocols.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/noise-around-johnny-sexton-only-muddies-the-concussion-waters-further-1.4482427

Noise around Johnny Sexton only muddies the concussion waters further
Johnny Watterson: Medics have player's best interests at heart but all have a different view



Concussion did not have its best week ever defining itself to the great unwashed. Dr Barry O'Driscoll fearlessly stepped forward to again assert that the return to play protocols, which Johnny Sexton is currently undergoing, are a construct with no scientific basis.
World Rugby might disagree but Dr O'Driscoll believes they are not modelled on previous medical investigations. There are no papers showing six days is enough time to expedite a head injury. The protocols are designed to assist and accelerate players' return to the field of play. As Dr O'Driscoll explained: it's commercial, stupid.
That came after the confusing part of the week, when Dr Jean-François Chermann, a neurologist who stood down Sexton for 12 weeks during the time he was playing with Racing in 2014, re-entered the orbit of his former patient. He waded in with what appeared to be a spasm of unguarded honesty combined with what Sexton himself believed to be a breach of doctor patient confidentiality.
"I think Johnny Sexton has had around 30 concussions across his entire career. It's true that it's enormous," Dr Chermann among other things, claimed on French radio. He later retracted what he said.
The problem is, he can't unsay his spoken words and people are left to believe either his first statement or his later retraction. They are asked to question why a specialist would say such a thing unless he believed in its veracity, all to the backdrop of a perplexed Sexton categorically stating its lack of veracity.
Unsolicited
Now everyone is again flapping around the room with their hair on fire. It is not hard to see why. French neurosurgeon, Dr Jean Chazal, also popped up. What a week. He also decided to make a contribution, again unsolicited by Sexton.
"He leaves the field with difficulty, with his legs spread which is another sign of ataxia. So, something happened neurologically. It's undeniable," Dr Chazal told French online platform Rugby Rama. The presumption is he watched Ireland's match against Wales on television and did not examine Sexton.
•   Johnny Sexton questions timing of intervention by French doctors
•   Dr Barry O'Driscoll believes rugby's concussion protocols not fit for purpose
•   Johnny Sexton 'saddened and shocked' over concussion comments from French medics
"If Sexton plays on Sunday, it's sad for him. This is what really inspires me: sadness," added Dr Chazal.
Sexton said he has been here before and sees it all as lose, lose for him, his concerned mother and his upset wife. It's easy to understand the disappointment and frustration at his rugby having a negative knock-on effect to his wider family.
Referring to Dr Chermann's comments, Sexton also spoke about how improper it was that a doctor "I have seen many years ago now felt it was appropriate to come out and say those things".
According to the Irish Medical Organisation: "The safeguarding of patient confidentiality is a fundamental principle of medical ethics which dates back to the Hippocratic Oath. Confidentiality is both a patient's right and a doctor's duty."
What the French doctors said before retraction also challenges how the medical staff in Leinster and Ireland have been dealing with the issue. People listen to and read their words and instinctively accept their accuracy and expertise. By being French they have some skin in the game as Ireland play France on Sunday but less so than Irish doctors working from inside the Irish team.
There is an irony there. Almost every rugby player who talks about injury in Ireland, every player who answers questions about a hamstring, or knee or ankle or cheek fracture or concussion, never fails to acknowledge the professionalism and care of the medical staff. Sexton reiterated that point on Wednesday.
"I trust the medical guys here. They look after us incredibly well," he said.
But no less so because Sexton is talking about it again, it is bewildering and disconcerting. There is no question that all the doctors have the care of Sexton at heart. Dr O'Driscoll does, the French doctors do and the Irish team medical staff do. But they are expressing that concern in different ways, some with bald candour that we are unused to hearing, others with hushed professionalism. More importantly, what to do next is not in agreement.
30 days
Sexton hopes to play against France seven days after the head injury. In comparison a less respected cousin, Olympic boxing, rules that if a boxer suffers a knockout as a result of a blow to the head or if the bout is stopped by the referee, the boxer may not take part in boxing or sparring for at least 30 days. Being stopped by the referee in boxing is equivalent to being taken from the pitch in rugby to undergo a HIA.
If there is a loss of consciousness for less than one minute, the boxer may not take part in boxing or sparring for at least three months and if there is a loss of consciousness for more than one minute, the boxer may not take part in boxing or sparring for six months or longer.
From the outside looking in rugby, like boxing, is not risk-averse and the participants understand that. While the danger is measured and not reckless, the point of safety is clearly in dispute. To hear doctors express such unfiltered views is eye opening, while it continues to add to Sexton's distress and wider confusion.
As Dr O'Driscoll explained, there is no test available for anxiety, depression or dementia from CTE that may only become known in 10 or 20 years' time. That's the nub of the matter. That and the agreed conceit of return to play protocols.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/progressive-rugby-calls-for-significant-changes-to-how-game-is-played-1.4487917

'Progressive Rugby' calls for significant changes to how game is played
Profound changes called for to protect the rugby-playing community from brain injury
about 5 hours ago
Johnny Watterson



Ireland and Lions prop Paul Wallace is one of a number of signatories to a letter from a group called 'Progressive Rugby,' who are calling for significant changes to the way the game is played and organised on a global basis.
The thrust of the letter to the chairman of World Rugby, Bill Beaumont, calls for more profound changes to take place to protect the rugby-playing community from brain injury, claiming it to be greatest threat to the game.
Beaumont wrote an open letter on December 17th last outlining how World Rugby holds player welfare as its number one priority at all levels after recent accounts of former players and their experiences.
In the tackle area, the group call for a review of "double teaming" players, where ball carriers are simultaneously hit by two players from the opposing side, the upper level of tackle height as well as a timely release of ball following the tackle. The group are also calling for limiting substitutes for injury only.
The current rule allows for tactical substitutions, where more than half the team are permitted to come on fresh, usually in the second half causing an imbalance between tired and fresh players.
"The problem you have is you play rugby and you get fatigued," said Professor John Fairclough. "The analogy is if you have Joe Calzaghe in a boxing match with Bernard Hopkins and after eight rounds you bring in Roy Jones (to fight Calzaghe). You have disproportionate physical strength. That's when you have a problem."
Former England players, Simon Shaw, Steve Thompson, Kyran Bracken and James Haskell, current Welsh backrow Josh Navidi and former Welsh international Alix Popham, former Canadian international Jamie Cudmore and former Scotland international Rory Lamont have also signed up to the changes.
"Of course, they are," said Haskell when asked if modern players are more at risk. "Look at the size they are. I think they are massively at risk. When I was playing, we were doing things out of fear not out of science. It's a dangerous game, a contact sport. It is a game of who controls violence. You might not like it."
Life on the line
Former Clermont player, Cudmore, spoke of "the club putting my life on the line" and cited "puking in Twickenham while getting stitched up and asked to go back on the field."
Included too were medics Dr Barry O'Driscoll, Professors Fairclough and Bill Ribbans and well as British Labour Party MP Chris Bryant, chair of the all-party parliamentary group for acquired brain injury.
In returning to play following a head injury, the group are also seeking to extend the minimum number of days before a player is back on the pitch competing to at least three weeks as well as mandatory comprehensive screening as in other sports after recurrent concussions.
Post retirement player welfare is also addressed and the body advise that a concussion fund be established by World Rugby, that ownership of a player passport should be developed and a more empathetic relationship with insurers should be agreed.
Much attention has recently fallen on England's 43-year-old former hooker Steve Thompson, who played in every game of the 2003 World Cup but cannot remember the final, which England won. Thompson has been diagnosed with early onset dementia and probable chronic traumatic encephalopathy.
Progressive Rugby have requested to speak with senior figures in World Rugby to discuss how they can work together to control an issue "that threatens the very future of our game". They have also asked for an independent "broad church" of experts to appraise current research, risks, and protocols in the game.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/eye-tracking-technology-trialled-in-bid-to-diagnose-concussion-1.4567663

The latest eye-tracking technology using virtual reality (VR) for the detection and treatment of concussion made its debut in Super Rugby Trans-Tasman 2021 last weekend.

Recent studies have suggested that oculomotor function – eye movement – alters at the time of a concussion or shortly afterwards. World Rugby, New Zealand Rugby and Rugby Australia have partnered with NeuroFlex to run an in-match trial and the technology was used across all five games in which the quintet of New Zealand teams beat their Australian counterparts over the weekend, and will continue as a trial for the remainder of the tournament.

A statement by World Rugby said: "The technology is being used alongside the current Head Injury Assessment (HIA) to objectively determine whether NeuroFlex could further enhance the HIA process, currently operating at 90 per cent accuracy in elite competitions.

"This innovative way to identify altered oculomotor function and head movement will also be used within the six-stage graduated return-to-play process to monitor players returning from injury and protect their health.

"NeuroFlex is an objective test that could further improve rugby's approach to brain health, supporting doctors to make the right decision. Numerous scientific studies have demonstrated that oculomotor functions are altered at the time of, or shortly after a concussion and the ground-breaking trial aims to verify the test's diagnostic accuracy.

https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/siobhan-cattigan-tragedy-questions-must-be-answered-144894

Back-rower Cattigan won 19 caps for Scotland before she died last November at the age of just 26. In an interview with The Sunday Times, Neil and Morven Cattigan describe how their daughter's mental health deteriorated after she suffered brain injuries while training/playing and ultimately led to her death.

Bernard Jackman here 25 concussions in his last year!

https://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/i-got-around-25-concussions-in-my-last-season-madness-41879748.html

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/2023/03/27/conversation-snedaker-has-inititated-on-female-concussion-demands-a-wider-audience/

Concussion a significant problem that goes under-reported in women's sport
Data suggests that in sports with similar rules female athletes sustain more concussions than their male counterparts



Denis Walsh
Mon Mar 27 2023 - 05:00

On the Super Bowl pre-game show, 10 years ago, the CBS announcer Jim Nantz inadvertently misrepresented a statistic about concussion in women's sport.

He said that "women's soccer players were 2½ times more likely to suffer a concussion than a college [American] football player".

The statistic that had slipped through his fingers was a straight comparison between women's soccer and the men's game, which only made it alarming in a different way.

The Super Bowl pre-game show has a huge audience and Nantz's gaffe caused a momentary spike in curiosity. Why would the numbers be different for women and men? Was it just in soccer? Where was the evidence, the research?







One of the people watching the show was Katherine Snedaker. A medical social worker, Snedaker was intimate with concussion and its complex aftermath. In her lifetime she had suffered multiple concussions, in different settings, but five years earlier, in 2008, one her sons had suffered a series of concussions that had caused him to miss nearly a year in school.

While caring for him she went looking for answers to questions that, to her surprise, weren't readily available.


[ Concussion in rugby: Amateur game must limit head injuries if it is to have a future ]

[ Concussion protocols: What if the opposition say it's not safe for your school's best player to play? ]

[ Report finds concussion most common injury in AIL and schoolboy Senior Cup ]

"I sought out concussion experts, emailed researchers and attended scores of medical professional conferences to find an alternative to the isolating prescription of 'rest until symptoms cleared,'" wrote Snedaker, years later.

Her search for knowledge brought her into contact with everyday ignorance: local GPs, teachers, sports coaches, didn't know nearly as much as they needed to.

Unwilling to just park her exasperation and walk away, Snedaker set up support groups for other parents, and "my quest to help my own child had now expanded to wider and wider circles of need," she wrote.

Snedaker soon became known as the "concussion Mom". What emerged over time was a pattern she didn't expect.

"Working in the clinics and talking to families, I began to notice young girls that weren't healing as fast as their families, friends and teachers felt they should. I founded a unique group for teens with PCS [Post-Concussion Syndrome] which ended up being all females."

Snedaker became immersed in the issue and the information deficits and the lives of girls and women impacted by concussion. Ten years ago, inspired by Nantz's misstep – and while she was locked in a battle with breast cancer – Snedaker set up a website where people could access the research she had sourced over the years.


From that seed, PINK Concussions grew into a non-profit, volunteer organisation founded on the mission to "improve the research, medical care and community care for females with brain injury".

Over the last decade Snedaker's campaigning zeal has persuaded more than 80 experts to join her professional advisory board, and amplify the issues at every opportunity.

On Thursday, she will host a 90-minute expert-led debate at the three-day World Brain Injury Conference in Dublin, exploring issues around concussion in women's sport that, over the years, have been harmfully neglected. What exactly does the data say, and what do we need to do about it?

"I have been waiting 10 years to have this debate," said Snedaker on a Zoom call last week.

"To try to push the envelope. Do we need a separate concussion protocol for women? We know from the research, for example, that a woman's menstrual cycle changes one way or another after a concussion. But sports doctors aren't gynaecologists, right?"


Kelly Catlin was a US track cyclist, who had been a three-time world champion and Olympic silver medallist. There were catastrophic gaps in her treatment for concussion prior to her sad passing. Photograph: Emmanuel Dunand/AFP/Getty Images
In the greater sensitivity around concussion in sport, and the heightened awareness of its dangers, the unthinking assumption would have been that it was the same for men and women. For many years, medical science would have done very little to challenge this notion.


A paper published three years ago by the British Journal of Sports Medicine showed that of 171 concussion studies conducted since 1967, only 1% of the research focused exclusively on female athletes, and 40% of the studies had no female participants. At the heart of this monumental imbalance was the unsafe, unscientific belief that there was no gender difference to consider.

By 2012 enough research had been done for the American Medical Society for Sports Medicine to issue an important position statement: "Recent data suggests that in sports with similar rules female athletes sustain more concussions than their male counterparts. In addition, female athletes experience, or report, a higher number and severity of symptoms, as well as a longer duration of recovery, than male athletes, in several studies."

If that's the case, why are the concussion protocols the same for women and men?

In mishandled concussion cases there are different outcomes. Occasionally – rarely – the outcomes are tragic.

In a brilliant and harrowing piece on CNN.com Amy Woodyatt shone a light on the lives and deaths of two young athletes who died by suicide, having suffered concussions that were not properly treated.

Kelly Catlin was a US track cyclist, who had been a three-time world champion and Olympic silver medallist; Ellie Souter was a teenage British snowboarder who had won a medal at the European Youth Games and had set her sights on the 2022 Winter Olympics. Catlin was 23 when she died; Souter had just reached her 18th birthday. In both cases there were catastrophic gaps in their treatment.



Katherine Snedaker: she has been a tireless, courageous, relentless pioneer on the issue of female concussion.
In Dublin on Thursday, Snedaker will present the PINK Concussion Sports Award to Neil and Morven Cattigan, whose daughter Siobhan suffered brain injuries while playing rugby for Scotland, and later died in tragic circumstances. The Cattigans' story has been covered with tenacity and tenderness by David Walsh in The Sunday Times since last summer.

"Siobhan Cattigan's life ended on November 26th, 2021," wrote Walsh recently. "Aged 26, she died after a relatively sudden and terrifying deterioration in her mental health. Her parents, Neil and Morven, believe the crisis that led to her death was caused by a traumatic brain injury suffered while playing rugby for Scotland. They have had no answers and little sympathy from the Scottish Rugby Union."

In the awards citation on the PINK Concussions website, Snedaker writes: "Siobhan's parents are fighting for the development of female-focused concussion educational programs, research and protocols. They wish that changes to how female concussions are handled with be Siobhan's legacy, so no other person will suffer as she did."

Snedaker has been a tireless, courageous, relentless pioneer on this issue. The conversation she has started is urgent and vital and needs an audience. There must be change.

I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 12:31:46 PM
I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Thats not good you may hang up the boots its not worth it.

Quote from: Cavan19 on March 27, 2023, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 12:31:46 PM
I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Thats not good you may hang up the boots its not worth it.

Was reading it and thinking are you just unlucky or going into tackles wildly?  Only one concussion from playing, full hurl contact on side of head, played on, but looked like I was drunk apparently

Yeah sport is great craic but if it has repercussions later in life its not worth that

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2023, 01:06:43 PM

Quote from: Cavan19 on March 27, 2023, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 12:31:46 PM
I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Thats not good you may hang up the boots its not worth it.

Was reading it and thinking are you just unlucky or going into tackles wildly?  Only one concussion from playing, full hurl contact on side of head, played on, but looked like I was drunk apparently

Yeah sport is great craic but if it has repercussions later in life its not worth that

1st one I got was done intentional, busted the fella earlier in the game because he took out a younger player then got me back.. rest just unlucky(falls/clash of heads), always happened against teams in yellow/blue jerseys so I just sat out those matches after the last one 😅 Have a wee girl and she's a couple of years from nursery football groups so will be coaching for me from now on I'd say. Get nagging from the other half when I mention going back so headache listening to her and risk of another knock on the head probably not worth it at all 

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 01:34:07 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2023, 01:06:43 PM

Quote from: Cavan19 on March 27, 2023, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 12:31:46 PM
I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Thats not good you may hang up the boots its not worth it.

Was reading it and thinking are you just unlucky or going into tackles wildly?  Only one concussion from playing, full hurl contact on side of head, played on, but looked like I was drunk apparently

Yeah sport is great craic but if it has repercussions later in life its not worth that

1st one I got was done intentional, busted the fella earlier in the game because he took out a younger player then got me back.. rest just unlucky(falls/clash of heads), always happened against teams in yellow/blue jerseys so I just sat out those matches after the last one 😅 Have a wee girl and she's a couple of years from nursery football groups so will be coaching for me from now on I'd say. Get nagging from the other half when I mention going back so headache listening to her and risk of another knock on the head probably not worth it at all

Take up the whistle  ;) Handy one, its like concussion without the long term effects

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2023, 01:35:47 PM

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 01:34:07 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 27, 2023, 01:06:43 PM

Quote from: Cavan19 on March 27, 2023, 12:34:25 PM

Quote from: Mourne Red on March 27, 2023, 12:31:46 PM
I've had about 5/6 concussions in last 5 years, previous one was especially bad was off work for 6 months with migraines/blackouts etc.. Pretty soft hit I got on the back of head going down to pick up the ball and just knew from the previous ones what had happened, stupidly played the rest of the match but then I was sick for days. Was still struggling few weeks later and went to hospital and was diagnosed with PCS (Post Concussion Syndrome)

Went for CT/MRI scans all came back that brain function was ok but was still getting the blackouts/migraines - Got some rotation examination done on my neck and consultant said had the rotation/flexibility of someone in there 50/60s, I was 28 at the time so not great news lol. Neck had completely stiffened from the concussion so that was the cause of my blackouts/brain fog etc. About 3/4 months of physio and started to feel ok again.

Still get the odd bit of brain fog but happens when neck gets tight or sit too long. Not currently playing atm (Partners ill do a year out) but consultant said one more concussion that I was to stop contact spot completely.

Thats not good you may hang up the boots its not worth it.

Was reading it and thinking are you just unlucky or going into tackles wildly?  Only one concussion from playing, full hurl contact on side of head, played on, but looked like I was drunk apparently

Yeah sport is great craic but if it has repercussions later in life its not worth that

1st one I got was done intentional, busted the fella earlier in the game because he took out a younger player then got me back.. rest just unlucky(falls/clash of heads), always happened against teams in yellow/blue jerseys so I just sat out those matches after the last one 😅 Have a wee girl and she's a couple of years from nursery football groups so will be coaching for me from now on I'd say. Get nagging from the other half when I mention going back so headache listening to her and risk of another knock on the head probably not worth it at all

Take up the whistle  ;) Handy one, its like concussion without the long term effects

Anyone who referees must have got a bang on the head when they were younger !

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/04/04/former-wales-rugby-international-dafydd-james-reveals-early-onset-dementia-diagnosis/
A group of ex-sportsmen and women taking legal action in the UK claiming they suffered brain injuries during their careers has grown to 380, with former Wales rugby union international Dafydd James among the latest to reveal he has been diagnosed with early onset dementia.
James, who won 48 Wales caps and toured Australia with the 2001 British and Irish Lions, is among a group of former players to join a lawsuit against World Rugby, the Rugby Football Union and Welsh Rugby Union.

Surely De Gea should have been removed for a HIA?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/06/03/david-corkery-i-feel-like-im-being-villainised-by-the-whole-rugby-community-because-im-taking-this-action/

"I had gone for all the other tests, but I wanted to be certain. I wanted confirmation that there were issues there. I wasn't going to do this [the class action] lightly. There are parts of my brain that are abnormal compared to the average person my age, as a result of impact. They can tell me that now. I have clinical proof that there is damage there.
"The doctor [in Birmingham] was able to show me the parts of my brain that had been injured through impact. I said is there any chance it could be genetics, or something else? He said, 'Have you ever been in a car crash?' I said no. He said, 'Did you ever fall off a horse?' No. 'It has to be rugby.'
"I was telling him about my emotions and he said 'That's the part of the brain that was damaged'. He said, 'See the red mark on the brain? That's where you're injured and this is going to have long-term effects'. He mentioned early-onset dementia. They can't predict when.
What I worry about now is not knowing my kids in the future
"They can slow it down with drugs, but these drugs are very much in their infancy. There are a couple of trials going on at the moment. I'm not going down that route. If they could say to me, 'Look, it's going to have no [adverse] affect on you, it will slow everything down, and you'll have a better quality of life,' then I probably would. But I'm not becoming what we were in the 1990s, which was guinea pigs for the professional game. That's what we were."
Was there relief in knowing? "There was, yeah. It's kind of sad to say, isn't it? But it's because you have an answer. The part of the brain that's affected relates to the feelings I have."

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

Hardly suprizng  and there will be many more as Rugby now consists mainly of huge *** induced player running as hard as they can n to another ****  induced  monster.
Several unnamed player have taken cases agaon RFU . they will probably be bought off to stem bad Publicty

I would honestly be surprised if Jonny Sexton doesn't suffer something in years to come as he has taken some hits over the years.

Quote from: rosnarun on June 15, 2023, 04:06:06 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

Hardly suprizng  and there will be many more as Rugby now consists mainly of huge *** induced player running as hard as they can n to another ****  induced  monster.
Several unnamed player have taken cases agaon RFU . they will probably be bought off to stem bad Publicty

The collisions are insane given the size of the players and the lack of protection given to the head area.

It's going to get to the stage where someone isn't going to get up again after a "tackle"
They are like car crashes
Rugby league is worse

It's not the  hits in rugby that's  the   problem. It's the game itself.  Such a stupid  frigging sport. Like rutting stags  crashing  into each other. 

Their Heads , necks and  shoulders must be in  tatters

The collisions are popular on TV. And players now are much bigger than they used to be.
They are like a form of gladiator.
The women they get married to should sign consent forms for care down the line.
What's awful about it is  the sort of class system for head trauma between backs and forwards.

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

If you read about him and those scrum machines it make sense with how hard he was hitting them :o Not really worth a world cup win for that.

There is enough rugby concussion data to be statistically significant.

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 03:09:36 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Is a hooker not a front row forward? Every day is a school day. I thought the hooker and the two props made up the front row?

Quote from: oakleaflad on June 16, 2023, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 03:09:36 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Is a hooker not a front row forward? Every day is a school day. I thought the hooker and the two props made up the front row?

You obviously didn't learn to read in the school days you had.

Quote from: oakleaflad on June 16, 2023, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 03:09:36 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Is a hooker not a front row forward? Every day is a school day. I thought the hooker and the two props made up the front row?

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/irish-rugby-players-to-be-part-of-concussion-group-lawsuit-1.4431012

The cases could change the nature of the way rugby is conducted with demands to World Rugby also attached to the civil cases. These include limited contact in training, limiting the number of replacements per game, concussion spotters with authority to remove, career-long central database chronicling injury history and the banning of zero hour contracts. They also urge critical research into frontrow forwards by independent academics.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 04:17:34 PM

Quote from: oakleaflad on June 16, 2023, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 03:09:36 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Is a hooker not a front row forward? Every day is a school day. I thought the hooker and the two props made up the front row?

You obviously didn't learn to read in the school days you had.

Well that wasn't very nice now was it? I would be a very casual rugby fan and genuinely thought i'd missed something on the naming of positions. I do get what you were saying now reading it again.

Quote from: oakleaflad on June 16, 2023, 04:24:10 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 04:17:34 PM

Quote from: oakleaflad on June 16, 2023, 03:17:07 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 16, 2023, 03:09:36 PM

Quote from: johnnycool on June 16, 2023, 02:41:40 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 15, 2023, 09:13:31 PM

Quote from: seafoid on June 15, 2023, 03:05:24 PM

Quote from: imtommygunn on June 15, 2023, 02:56:38 PM
There seem to have been quite a few ex players from that kind of era have got dementia.

(I suspect it's going to be a massive issue for rugby players in years to come too - look at Steve Thompson the english guy).

Especially rugby forwards.
I think Jeff Astle was one of the first soccer players linked to dementia.

I can't be arsed looking up the stats but I'd be very surprised if front or second row forwards were high up the concussion tables. Torpedoing through the ruck towards a 9, hammering a back row forward in the jackal position or flying out of the line to nail 10 (Jonny Sexton) or 12 are common sources of head injuries in the matches I watch.

Steve Thompson the England hooker might disagree, he can't remember a second of his world cup win.

He might if I'd said no hooker ever has been concussed.

Is a hooker not a front row forward? Every day is a school day. I thought the hooker and the two props made up the front row?

You obviously didn't learn to read in the school days you had.

Well that wasn't very nice now was it? I would be a very casual rugby fan and genuinely thought i'd missed something on the naming of positions. I do get what you were saying now reading it again.

Apologies for being short.

Concussion leading to CTE seems to be a feature of professional rugby post 1995.

CTE in American football stats are eye watering. https://www.usnews.com/news/health-news/articles/2023-02-09/in-autopsy-study-over-90-of-former-nfl-players-showed-signs-of-brain-disease-cte#:~:text=The%20new%20research%20builds%20on,in%20the%20UNITE%20brain%20bank.

99% of NFL players
91% of college football players
21% of high school players.

madness

QuoteResearchers at the Boston University CTE Center recently announced that they have now diagnosed CTE in the brains of 345 of 376 (91.7%) of NFL players studied. Arrington was among them.

By contrast, a 2018 Boston University study of 164 donated brains found one (0.6%) with CTE. The one CTE case was in a former college football player.

Someone is way off.

Its important to trust the science  :-\

it is.

Unless the quote is misleading, the Boston study looked at donated brains--not NFL ones.  So, putting the two studies together, the result is that:

CTE was found in the brains of 345 of 376 (91.7%) of NFL players studied.

By contrast, the  Boston University study of 164 donated brains from the general population found one (0.6%) with CTE. The one CTE case was in a former college football player.

So, play in the NFL, and you've a 92% chance of CTE.
Don't play football, and you have almost zero chance.

https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/2023/10/24/rugby-players-increase-risk-of-serious-brain-disease-by-14-per-cent-every-year-report/

A rugby player's risk of developing an incurable brain disease uniquely associated with repeated head impacts is relative to the length of their career, a new study indicates.

Each additional year of playing was found to increase the risk of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) by 14 per cent, in a study of the brains of 31 former players whose average career length was 18 years.

CTE can only be diagnosed postmortem, and to date the only recognised risk factor for CTE is traumatic brain injury and repeated head impact exposure.

The study, published in Acta Neuropathologica in the week of the Rugby World Cup final, found CTE present in 21 of the 31 brains (68 per cent) donated to research institutes in the United States, the United Kingdom and Australia.