Here are Paraic Duffy's thoughts on the subject.
Discuss.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/gaa-chief-defends-provincial-system-and-claims-critics-just-dont-get-it-29443738.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/gaa-chief-defends-provincial-system-and-claims-critics-just-dont-get-it-29443738.html)
COLM KEYS – 24 JULY 2013
The GAA's director general Paraic Duffy has said that ardent critics of the provincial championships calling for change "don't really get it."
Speaking at the launch of the All-Ireland football championships in Glenswilly, home club of Donegal captain Michael Murphy, Duffy gave firm backing to the current structures after three successive weekends that collectively brought 94 years of famine to an end for three different counties in hurling and football.
He also acknowledged that pitch invasions remain a concern for the Association but are a bigger issue inCroke Park – because of crowd sizes – than anywhere else.
Monaghan-native Duffy was a delighted figure in the Gerry Arthurs Stand on Sunday as Monaghan celebrated a first Ulster title in 25 years, with fans spilling out on the pitch afterwards for the presentation.
"I've always felt that we should keep the provincial championship," he said. "For Monaghan players and supporters that was a huge goal itself, to win a provincial title. I was in Monaghan at the celebrations. People who say 'get rid of the championships' don't really get it.
"If you tell anyone in Monaghan or, say, in Limerick at the Munster hurling final last Sunday, that it doesn't matter... I don't think there is an awful lot wrong with the present system. If there is a better system, fine, but the qualifiers allowed us to retain the provincial championships and allowed us to have different pairings," he said.
He also pointed out that if there had been an 'A' and 'B' championship split evenly, as some suggested should happen, Cavan, Monaghan and London would not have made such progress this summer.
"Sport has to be about the romance, about the small guy having his day. Most counties get their day. The present system is the one which best suits the GAA," said Duffy.
"There are probably teams who aren't good enough to compete, but it's a very small number. Those counties want to be a part of it and want to compete in it. If you have another system, say with eight groups of four, you'd have far more mismatches than with the current system.
"I still believe that we should retain the provincial championships in tandem with the qualifier system."
Duffy admitted it was "something very special" to look down at the Monaghan supporters on Sunday.
"The reason for us saying no to pitch invasions is because it's a health and safety issue. Last Sunday in Clones you had 32,000 people, the week before in Limerick you had 40,000, but in Croke Park you have potential for 80,000 people to come onto the pitch," he said.
"It's a bigger issue in Croke Park than anywhere else. This isn't a GAA crusade. It was done in Croke Park on Garda advice. It is dangerous. It's great if it goes off well.
"The other problem in Croke Park is that when people come onto the pitch they all go out onto Jones' Road again. That's what brought it to a head, where people were coming out there and pushing in different directions."
Duffy said Croke Park must ultimately accept responsibility for any adverse reception referee Joe McQuillan got off the crowd in Newbridge after Saturday night's defeat to Tyrone.
"You can say that it was a Kildare venue, but it was a Central Council fixture, so the onus is on us to look at what happened and make sure it doesn't happen again," he said.
I pretty much agree with Duffy. The ideas of scrapping or divorcing the provincials from the championship (an act that would only result in their slow and painful deaths) have always seemed to emerge from the sort of blue sky thinking that has little regard for the power and the meaning for traditions, two things absolutely intrinsic to the GAA's appeal.
The big task for the GAA is to make a calendar that makes sense from the current pieces. Any (minor) editing of the championship should only come about when we don't have situations like it taking nine or ten weeks to run off the Connacht championship.
I agree wholeheartily with Duffy . It may need some tweeking with regard to the length of time it takes to run off the provincial championship but i still don't think that a better option has been devised yet.
QuoteThe idea of scrapping or divorcing the provincials from the championship (an act that would only result in their slow and painful deaths)
So they aren't worthy enough to stand on their own feet, if true it tells you all you need to know about their 'value'.
QuoteThe idea of scrapping or divorcing the provincials from the championship have always seemed to emerge from the sort of blue sky thinking that has little regard for the power and the meaning for traditions, two things absolutely intrinsic to the GAA's appeal.
Nonsense on every conceivable level, it doesn't even make sense.
QuoteIt may need some tweeking with regard to the length of time it takes to run off the provincial championship but i still don't think that a better option has been devised yet.
Pretty much any option is better on a number of grounds. List out how the current season is better than alternatives under different headings, like;
1. Structure
2. Club football/hurling
3. Promotion of the GAA
4. Finance
5. Player/Team development
6. Competitive equality
7. Logic
8. Expansion of the GAA into areas where it isn't currently as popular as it should be, e.g. Galway, Limerick and Derry cities
9. Bringing the games to people
10. Logic, yeah I know I've this one down twice but it's a biggie if you support the current structure.
PS I'm happy to retain the provincial championships if they can fit into a logical, structured season that gives CB's some chance of putting together a structured season for their clubs.
I doubt the Sligo Rovers lads will start turning up to Sligo's championship matches if they add Donegal or Longford to the Connacht championship. An open draw, now that might get their juices flowing, no soccer for them once that trick is pulled.
If you actually think people who don't care about the GAA are going to change their minds because you fiddle with the format of the championship you're having a long, hard laugh at our expense.
The only way you win mind-share is by either winning, developing grassroots or promoting the sport through advertising, camps and other media-friendly activities. The structure of the championship doesn't even register on that scale and if that's the rationale behind change it's a poor one to say the least.
Duffy sums up my feelings on the matter very well. Still miss the pitch invasions though - not that I'm likely to be a position to want to get onto the Croke Park turf any time soon.
QuoteIf you actually think people who don't care about the GAA are going to change their minds because you fiddle with the format of the championship you're having a long, hard laugh at our expense.
Provincial rugby in Ireland showed that people who never cared about a sport before can become passionate (albeit on a superficial level for many) about a team/sport when you serve it up to them.
QuoteThe only way you win mind-share is by either winning, developing grassroots or promoting the sport through advertising, camps and other media-friendly activities.
Ah, no it's not. Having a season where people can go to games handily and following teams over the course of a season breeds familiarity which helps people feel part of it. If you're not a GAA man it can be very hard to associate with your club or county team.
I made a list there and asked how it is the best option under those headings, feel free to add to it if you like but please answer if you expect to be taken seriously.
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2013, 12:57:03 PM
Duffy sums up my feelings on the matter very well. Still miss the pitch invasions though - not that I'm likely to be a position to want to get onto the Croke Park turf any time soon.
I ran onto the pitch with the Monaghan lads ( I stole a Monaghan flag from a young buck who was sat beside me ) on Sunday just so as to say I was part of the last pitch invasion.
It was class crack.
Priceless moment.
I would like to see the allireland split into a senior & junior knockout competition with 16 teams in each.
i think the provincial championships should be kept, but played as a separate 'cup' competition.
the top 16 teams would be decided by the 4 provincial winners plus the next 12 highest placed league finishes.
I think this would give added importance to the league, aswell as having the league title itself to aim for.
the league would remain split into 4 divisons, with league titles for finishing top of each divison
so that would leave div 1/2/3/4 league titles to play for.
4 provincial titles up for grabs
1 senior & 1 junior all ireland winner
i'm sure there are loads of holes in this format that people will point out, but i think it makes more sense than the current one
There's holes in any proposal but there's a lot to recommend that format. The two main issues I'd have with it would be the fact that a division 4 team knows from the get go that it can't play for Sam through it's league position and if there was a weak province, i.e. one where there wasn't really any good team counties in that province would have a distinct advantage over others. I'd be fairly supportive of any format that gives everyone the same path to an All Ireland final with a pathway to success if you are any good.
It would be easy to keep the provinces if you couldn't care less about the clubs but fitting in the provincials or creating a format where they retain importance within the All Ireland race is nigh on impossible as far as I can see.
Quote from: Zulu on July 24, 2013, 01:27:32 PM
Provincial rugby in Ireland showed that people who never cared about a sport before can become passionate (albeit on a superficial level for many) about a team/sport when you serve it up to them.
1. Provincial rugby was not created in the noughties. It already had a serious base of support, and natural allegiances in place. Scottish rugby shows the other side of the coin, when you "create" teams.
2. There are only 4 provinces. There never will be any more, any less. Which creates high quality sport and large catchment areas. It is the exact opposite of the GAA intercounty system.
Anyone scrapping the Provincial Championships needs to step back and ask a simple question.
If you were an inter county player, would you take greater pride in winning the biggest regional prize, or in winning a second tier tournament?
Second tier competitions at county level have never worked, and will never work, simply because the players do not value winning these competitions. Why (as an amateur) train you bollocks out 40+ weeks a year to play second tier? It makes no sense.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 24, 2013, 02:06:08 PM
2. There are only 4 provinces. There never will be any more, any less. Which creates high quality sport and large catchment areas. It is the exact opposite of the GAA intercounty system.
You'll get the Meath lads started if you're not careful.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 24, 2013, 02:06:08 PM
. Why (as an amateur) train you bollocks out 40+ weeks a year to play second tier? It makes no sense.
Equally Why (as an amateur) train you bollocks out 40+ weeks a year to play in a competition where you might very well never win a game for 5 or 6 years?
Has anyone asked the players of -;
Antrim, Fermanagh, Wicklow, Carlow, Leitrim, Clare, Tipp, Waterford, Longford etc etc if they'd prefer a second tier competition after they exit the Provincials??
As for the Provinvials - No matter what system(s) may come in the future they will have to be kept.
Monaghan, Limerick and Dublin hurlers in the last few weeks showed how important they are to success starved Counties.
They might mean eff all to Kerry or Dublin ( or even Mayowr) footballers or Kilkenny hurlers but to the rest of us we'd be damn glad to win one now and then.
As for Padraig Duffy - I wonder had he the same strong views a few weeks ago ;D
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 24, 2013, 01:46:40 PM
I would like to see the allireland split into a senior & junior knockout competition with 16 teams in each.
i think the provincial championships should be kept, but played as a separate 'cup' competition.
the top 16 teams would be decided by the 4 provincial winners plus the next 12 highest placed league finishes.
I think this would give added importance to the league, aswell as having the league title itself to aim for.
the league would remain split into 4 divisons, with league titles for finishing top of each divison
so that would leave div 1/2/3/4 league titles to play for.
4 provincial titles up for grabs
1 senior & 1 junior all ireland winner
i'm sure there are loads of holes in this format that people will point out, but i think it makes more sense than the current one
If that format was in place this summer Cavan would be playing in junior knockout competition?
I'd be on for keeping the Provincials. :D
To me the bigger problem is the length of time it takes to play them. Ulster for instance started on 19th May and finished last Sunday - 21st July. 8 matches played in that time, far too long.
A tighter more compact Provincial season would allow for more scope for changes to qualifiers/B competition and also create a more structured fixtures plan for club fixtures. I also feel their would be more buzz with games played on same weekends and with the new white elephant stadium in casement, double fixtures will also be possible.
based on this years performances the 16 would be made up from
mayo,
dublin,
kerry,
monaghan,
tyrone,
kildare,
cork,
donegal,
down,
derry,
w.meath,
laois,
louth,
galway,
armagh,
wexford,
cavan would miss out, as would the likes of meath
but then if counties new from the beginning that qualification was based on league performance, then perhaps we would have a more competitive league.
you can argue that most counties won't be arsed about a second tier competition, but the aim is also to give more meaning to the league & provincial competitions, so that each county has more meaningful games in a year.
realistically any team outside the top 16 won't win an allireland anyway (or even get to semi/qtr final anyway
Quote from: Bingo on July 24, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
A tighter more compact Provincial season would allow for more scope for changes to qualifiers/B competition and also create a more structured fixtures plan for club fixtures. I also feel their would be more buzz with games played on same weekends and with the new white elephant stadium in casement, double fixtures will also be possible.
The biggest problem facing the GAA (IMHO etc) is emigration/rural depopulation. The second biggest problem is giving club players regular matches. The second problem is going to exist as long as County Boards are happy to re-schedule games for bullsh!t reasons. A number of football games have been postponed in Waterford this weekend because the Minor hurlers are playing Antrim. To my mind this is lunacy, but those in positions of authority in various counties (despite all the slandering of the likes of Frank/Phelim Murphy, no-one can seriously argue these guys don't care) seem to think it's the way to go. And no amount of rejigging of the Championship format is going to change that attitude.
The league needs revamped.
When it means nothing whether or not you're relegated, then surely the leagues all need looked at in order to make them competitive in some way.
Making the leagues a seeding system is as good a way as any.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 24, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
based on this years performances the 16 would be made up from
mayo,
dublin,
kerry,
monaghan,
tyrone,
kildare,
cork,
donegal,
down,
derry,
w.meath,
laois,
louth,
galway,
armagh,
wexford,
cavan would miss out, as would the likes of meath
but then if counties new from the beginning that qualification was based on league performance, then perhaps we would have a more competitive league.
you can argue that most counties won't be arsed about a second tier competition, but the aim is also to give more meaning to the league & provincial competitions, so that each county has more meaningful games in a year.
realistically any team outside the top 16 won't win an allireland anyway (or even get to semi/qtr final anyway
Don't see how its right for Cavan,Meath to miss out while Wexford,Louth are allowed to play in the top 16. Isn't much difference between division two,three sides and this years championship proved that.
Cavan will reach the quarter final and Meath are one win away. Realistically only five sides could win the All Ireland this summer maybe we should have mini All Ireland just for those sides?
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2013, 04:56:36 PM
Quote from: Bingo on July 24, 2013, 04:18:14 PM
A tighter more compact Provincial season would allow for more scope for changes to qualifiers/B competition and also create a more structured fixtures plan for club fixtures. I also feel their would be more buzz with games played on same weekends and with the new white elephant stadium in casement, double fixtures will also be possible.
The biggest problem facing the GAA (IMHO etc) is emigration/rural depopulation. The second biggest problem is giving club players regular matches. The second problem is going to exist as long as County Boards are happy to re-schedule games for bullsh!t reasons. A number of football games have been postponed in Waterford this weekend because the Minor hurlers are playing Antrim. To my mind this is lunacy, but those in positions of authority in various counties (despite all the slandering of the likes of Frank/Phelim Murphy, no-one can seriously argue these guys don't care) seem to think it's the way to go. And no amount of rejigging of the Championship format is going to change that attitude.
Not sure of other counties but in Monaghan, I've been surprised how this works and you'd normally find that the clubs involved have a lot of influence in this matter. While Johnny the Minor will be the excuse used, you'll find out that Johnnys club have an injury or two, a player on holidays maybe and they looking to take advantage of Johnny minor and they don't want to play games without their full panel.
Their is no easy answer but from the outset all clubs/boards and county mgt panel should agree what Intercounty games necessitate a postponement and what doesn't. Put them in a room and you'll find very little common ground on it but your only chance is to do it before a ball is licked/pucked.
Quote from: Captain Obvious on July 24, 2013, 05:04:09 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 24, 2013, 04:40:37 PM
based on this years performances the 16 would be made up from
mayo,
dublin,
kerry,
monaghan,
tyrone,
kildare,
cork,
donegal,
down,
derry,
w.meath,
laois,
louth,
galway,
armagh,
wexford,
cavan would miss out, as would the likes of meath
but then if counties new from the beginning that qualification was based on league performance, then perhaps we would have a more competitive league.
you can argue that most counties won't be arsed about a second tier competition, but the aim is also to give more meaning to the league & provincial competitions, so that each county has more meaningful games in a year.
realistically any team outside the top 16 won't win an allireland anyway (or even get to semi/qtr final anyway
Don't see how its right for Cavan,Meath to miss out while Wexford,Louth are allowed to play in the top 16. Isn't much difference between division two,three sides and this years championship proved that.
Cavan will reach the quarter final and Meath are one win away. Realistically only five sides could win the All Ireland this summer maybe we should have mini All Ireland just for those sides?
It certainly wouldn't be perfect from the start, but if counties knew from the start that league position effected getting into the senior competition, then they would take it more seriously and would only have themselves to blame for missing out.
This would leave the league far more competitive and give the lesser counties an achievable goal of getting into the top 16 competition as a tangible measure of progress.
Quote from: Bingo on July 24, 2013, 05:16:42 PM
Not sure of other counties but in Monaghan, I've been surprised how this works and you'd normally find that the clubs involved have a lot of influence in this matter. While Johnny the Minor will be the excuse used, you'll find out that Johnnys club have an injury or two, a player on holidays maybe and they looking to take advantage of Johnny minor and they don't want to play games without their full panel.
Oh, you can be certain it's the clubs pushing for the postponements. It's in their interests if their energy and enthusiasm-laden corner-forward is playing for an underage county team for the game to be re-scheduled. But they need someone strong enough to tell them where to go. As I understand it, it's just not done in Kilkenny. This isn't the reason they are successful, but it does suggest that playing matches at the same time the county team are playing doesn't hinder the county team. And re-scheduling club games definitely harms the club game in the long run when other sports can guarantee players regular games in high summer.
Quote from: Bingo on July 24, 2013, 05:16:42 PMTheir is no easy answer but from the outset all clubs/boards and county mgt panel should agree what Intercounty games necessitate a postponement and what doesn't. Put them in a room and you'll find very little common ground on it but your only chance is to do it before a ball is licked/pucked.
Sounds good to me.
It isn't really symmetrical with 16 good teams and 16 bad teams. There are 4 or 5 teams who would usually beat everyone, except themselves. Then there are 16-20 teams who just might beat one of the above, who would have nearly 50/50 games with each other, but who might hockey one of the lower teams. Then there are 8 or so teams who are dispirited and who couldn't be relied up to beat the top 5 club teams never mind the top 5 county teams.
Quote from: orangeman on July 24, 2013, 04:57:33 PM
The league needs revamped.
When it means nothing whether or not you're relegated, then surely the leagues all need looked at in order to make them competitive in some way.
Making the leagues a seeding system is as good a way as any.
Balderdash.
Going from division 1 to 2, or 3 to 4 mightn't mean much in the greater scheme of things, but going from 2 to 3 does.
Quote from: armaghniac on July 24, 2013, 05:29:36 PM
It isn't really symmetrical with 16 good teams and 16 bad teams. There are 4 or 5 teams who would usually beat everyone, except themselves. Then there are 16-20 teams who just might beat one of the above, who would have nearly 50/50 games with each other, but who might hockey one of the lower teams. Then there are 8 or so teams who are dispirited and who couldn't be relied up to beat the top 5 club teams never mind the top 5 county teams.
it may not be symmetrical, but it would leave it very competitive between that mid group of teams in the league to try and qualify for the top level competition.
Having a think a bit more about it, a revamp of the league to 3 divisions might work better as it would give more counties the chance to finish in the top 16 by thier league position.
only div 3 teams couldnt qualify by league position (but could still if they win their province)
3 divisions has merit, just abolish these league semi finals and the like.
Quote from: deiseach on July 24, 2013, 05:27:12 PM
And re-scheduling club games definitely harms the club game in the long run when other sports can guarantee players regular games in high summer.
Apart from the League of Ireland, which sports can guarantee games in high summer? Junior soccer and all rugby are not played in high summer. Cricket?
Quote from: Sidney on July 25, 2013, 05:14:28 PM
Apart from the League of Ireland, which sports can guarantee games in high summer? Junior soccer and all rugby are not played in high summer. Cricket?
I was being a bit overwrought with 'high' part, but the Waterford Junior Leagues are played from August through to May (http://wjl.leaguerepublic.com/l/results/412627919/1_166615519/499304001///-1.html) with a break for the winter. You know well in advance when the game is going to be played and can plan your life accordingly. Have a look at the previous year's fixtures to see how regular the fixtures are. I think it should be a source of worry to Waterford GAA that they can offer this reliability in a way that the GAA don't seem to be able to, often for the silliest of reasons.
QuoteI think it should be a source of worry to Waterford GAA that they can offer this reliability in a way that the GAA don't seem to be able to, often for the silliest of reasons.
I imagine Waterford football fixtures aren't any more predictable than Kerry, altough Waterford pay few games in the championship. The reasons for the chaos lies elsewhere.