Top 8 teams in the country

Started by seafoid, May 11, 2017, 09:12:17 AM

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Syferus

Quote from: seafoid on May 11, 2017, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.

Money means sponsors with big wallets rather than prosperous citizens
You don't need a big bank balance to be a good footballer.

A new economic system that focused on workers rather than capital would help.
The psychology of mediocrity is a problem for the GAA. Meath have been down for a long time for example.

You need one to win an AI.

Zulu

Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

macdanger2

Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 11, 2017, 06:11:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.

Commuter culture in the satellite towns where the population growth has occurred in Kildare and Meath leads to a lack of local involvement and identity. The 'new' population in these towns are not native to the county and have no connection to it. A huge proportion of Kildare's population are not from Kildare. If population = success then the clubs in the north-east corner of the county would be dominant but only Celbridge are realistic contenders for the Kildare SFC.

65% of people in meath are blow ins according to census figures out today

Rossfan

The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

Jell 0 Biafra

Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.

damn straight.  They grew up watching the 90's Meath teams.

Syferus

Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 12, 2017, 02:31:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.

damn straight.  They grew up watching the 90's Meath teams.

More like Jack's boys in Italia 90 and USA 94..

seafoid

Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.


It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

Carlow and Longford are too small to win an all Ireland. Roscommon has the lowest population of a county that has won Sam

I was looking at all Irelands by economic period . I divided the country into different groups - Dubs, Kerry, BMW (Border Midlands West), 6 counties and other . "Other" covers economically prosperous and over the years had all Irelands from Cork, Meath, Kildare, Tipp, Wexford, Limerick and Louth. BMW is a proxy for economically disadvantaged. Kerry is sui generis because it consistently wins 30% of titles.

Economic periods were pre 26 county independence, closed economy (1922-59), Keynesian (1960 to 89) and Neoliberal (1990 to now).

Other counties have  won around 25% of all Irelands while BMW have won 19%.
The 6 counties were handicapped by NI. 

For BMW the best economic period in which to win an all Ireland was 1922-59
BMW won 37% of Sams during that period. The economy was a basket case. There was no money but it was evenly spread. 

37% is 14 all Irelands. Other only won 6
During that period Cavan, Mayo and Roscommon all chipped in. 

How money is spread around the country does matter. So does the security situation in the North.
It matters in terms of how the leftover all Irelands after Dublin and Kerry have taken their share are distributed.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Zulu

There are a hundred and one factors that go into a county being competitive. Money is, of course, one of those factors and an important one at that but it isn't the defining one. Population is the defining factor. Every now and again a county will stump that, like Monaghan currently, but the trend will always be defined by population as it always has.

Seafoid, did you look at the relative size of populations in counties that were successful?




Dinny Breen

Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
#newbridgeornowhere

rosnarun

only if its spent well Sport is full of stories of teams having money poured into them and yet failing badly . was listening to radio last night and Keith Andrews was chatting about Blackburn , who got relegated to level 3 this year despite the venky's investing huge amounts but mainly by overpaying poor players
in GAA circle some counties seem more occupied with building White elephants rather than improving teams. there is still room for the small guy such as tipperary footballers but would be very difficult to keep it up over  a long period that where money come into its own.
If you make yourself understood, you're always speaking well. Moliere

seafoid

Quote from: Zulu on May 12, 2017, 10:33:02 AM
There are a hundred and one factors that go into a county being competitive. Money is, of course, one of those factors and an important one at that but it isn't the defining one. Population is the defining factor. Every now and again a county will stump that, like Monaghan currently, but the trend will always be defined by population as it always has.

Seafoid, did you look at the relative size of populations in counties that were successful?

I did but it's not that clear.
19 counties have won the All Ireland
Roscommon is the 27 th smallest currently in terms of population.

The big exceptions based on size are #2 antrim and #16 Wicklow.
Clare, Waterford and Kilkenny are hurling counties.
Other counties that are bigger than Ros that haven't won are Westmeath , Laois and Sligo.
Some of it is down to the culture of winning and Sligo was always more into soccer.

I think psychology is more important for Cork, for example, than the money or the population size.
The outstanding feature of GF is how many all Irelands Kerry and Dublin win over time.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Zulu

Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.

Granted, but as rosnarun points out there are plenty of wealthy sports entities that fail to achieve much. I remember listening to someone on the radio talk about the population of Cavan when they were winning All Irelands being much bigger than now. Talent will always be the biggest factor and you are likely to have more talent with bigger populations. It's not the only factor but it is the main one in the GAA IMO. In professional sports any sports team with money can buy the players you need, you could give Longford all the money in the world and they still wouldn't be All Ireland champions anytime soon. Give Longford town all the money in the world and they'd certainly be the best team in Ireland by the end of the year.

Lar Naparka

Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
I'd disagree with you both Dinny although it's a case of splitting very fine hairs.
Dublin has both and yet only became an unstoppable force when the county board devised a plan to put their resources to best use.
You need a sizeable population to supply the money needed but neither nor both will be enough without the presence of a structured organisational plan. Dublin was like the proverbial sleeping giant until 2010 when the most piss-poor Meath team of all time took them to them to the cleaners.
Then and only then did the county board sit down to devise a strategy for the future, the famous Blue Wave,  and the rest is well to us all.
Cork, Galway, Kildare, Limerick and Meath in that order are the next most heavily populated counties and none of them are anywhere near good enough to win an AI at present. Galway has twice the population of Mayo but are far less likely to go the whole year than their neighbours are.
In plain English, you need a cohesive, structured plan of campaign which needs a sizeable population to generate the income necessary to go places.
Nil Carborundum Illegitemi

seafoid

Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 12, 2017, 04:15:04 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.

Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.

It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.

I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
I'd disagree with you both Dinny although it's a case of splitting very fine hairs.
Dublin has both and yet only became an unstoppable force when the county board devised a plan to put their resources to best use.
You need a sizeable population to supply the money needed but neither nor both will be enough without the presence of a structured organisational plan. Dublin was like the proverbial sleeping giant until 2010 when the most piss-poor Meath team of all time took them to them to the cleaners.
Then and only then did the county board sit down to devise a strategy for the future, the famous Blue Wave,  and the rest is well to us all.
Cork, Galway, Kildare, Limerick and Meath in that order are the next most heavily populated counties and none of them are anywhere near good enough to win an AI at present. Galway has twice the population of Mayo but are far less likely to go the whole year than their neighbours are.
In plain English, you need a cohesive, structured plan of campaign which needs a sizeable population to generate the income necessary to go places.
Lar, the footballing part of Galway would be close enough population wise to Mayo.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

Impediments to winning an All Ireland SFC
Population - Fermanagh Cavan Monaghan Sligo Laythrum Ros Longford Westmeath Offaly* Laois* Carlow -11
* hurley stuff also.
Armagh and Derry borderline cases. -2
Hurley stuff - Wexford Kilkenny Waterford Tipp Limerick Clare - 6.
Other - Antrim disorganised and no tradition, Louth soccer, Kildare horses and lost tradition of winning, Wicklow just about everything - 4.

So the All Ireland SFC is down to 9 - Donegal Tyrone Down
Galway Mayowestros
Cork Kerry
Dublin Meath.

Those 9 have 32 All Ireland Final appearances between them this Century. Armagh being the interlopers twice.
Mind you Meath and Down with only 1 Final appearance each makes the club even more exclusive.

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM