Who would you include after Dubs, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone ?
Paddy Power suggest Monaghan, Donegal, Cork and Galway
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/gaa-sports/gaa-football/all-ireland-sfc?ev_oc_grp_ids=2539140
But Kildare are doing well. Cork were atrocious in the league. Galway were very poor against Tipp last year. Monaghan only have one forward.
Monaghan have 2 forwards now.
Top 8 according to the ranking table on boards.ie
1. = Dublin 106.11
2 ▲ Kerry 102.84
3 ▼ Mayo 101.18
4 = Donegal 97.26
5 = Tyrone 93.97
6 = Galway 93.21
7 = Monaghan 91.24
8 ▲ Tipperary 88.91
Tipp most likely to drop out and to be replaced by Cork,Kildare or Meath in the top 8 ranking point table.
Quote from: seafoid on May 11, 2017, 09:12:17 AM
Who would you include after Dubs, Kerry, Mayo and Tyrone ?
Paddy Power suggest Monaghan, Donegal, Cork and Galway
http://www.paddypower.com/bet/gaa-sports/gaa-football/all-ireland-sfc?ev_oc_grp_ids=2539140
But Kildare are doing well. Cork were atrocious in the league. Galway were very poor against Tipp last year. Monaghan only have one forward.
The odds will have a weighting dependent on the draw as well don't forget. Roscommon at 50/1 are the 9th favourites. Their draw (beat Leitrim/London to make provincial final) is incomparable to their neighbours Longford (beat Laois, Kildare and probably Meath to make provincial final) for example. Longford are 1000/1.
There is the top 4/5 and then there is a large group of teams who could all beat each other. Longford beat Monaghan last year for example.
Trying to guess the order past the top three is time-filling nonsense. Who would have predicted Tipp predicted be there this time last year? Or that Galway would win Connacht? Or that Monaghan would be humiliated by Longford?
This sport is fûcked because of the money #1, and to lesser but still very worrying extent #2 and #3, pump into their senior teams. The GAA is a money addict that is unwilling to face up to its habit.
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Quote from: Syferus on May 11, 2017, 02:29:20 PM
Trying to guess the order past the top three is time-filling nonsense. Who would have predicted Tipp predicted be there this time last year? Or that Galway would win Connacht? Or that Monaghan would be humiliated by Longford?
This sport is fûcked because of the money #1, and to lesser but still very worrying extent #2 and #3, pump into their senior teams. The GAA is a money addict that is unwilling to face up to its habit.
Mouview predicted that Galway would beat Mayo
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
Yep.
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
You mean when one of them went dead broke chasing that dragon?
Time to be considering factors other factors outside of pointless format changes, young ladeen.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
Commuter culture in the satellite towns where the population growth has occurred in Kildare and Meath leads to a lack of local involvement and identity. The 'new' population in these towns are not native to the county and have no connection to it. A huge proportion of Kildare's population are not from Kildare. If population = success then the clubs in the north-east corner of the county would be dominant but only Celbridge are realistic contenders for the Kildare SFC.
Noted.
However ye don't have the loss of "indigenous" people like western Counties do.
Also ye wouldn't have to be traipsing big long lanky lads across the country in cramped buses for training sessions.
In addition ye're natives even excluding the commuter crowd are far wealthier than the west, Midlands and most of Ulster.
So ye have more money available, more people and easier training set ups.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
Money means sponsors with big wallets rather than prosperous citizens
You don't need a big bank balance to be a good footballer.
A new economic system that focused on workers rather than capital would help.
The psychology of mediocrity is a problem for the GAA. Meath have been down for a long time for example.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 06:22:24 PM
However ye don't have the loss of "indigenous" people like western Counties do.
Not an issue for the big town clubs but the smaller rural clubs have certainly suffered from emigration recently. Ballymore went from Senior to Junior in the space of a few years. Eadestown lost to Naas last weekend by 3-24 to 0-2. These were clubs who have contributed handsomely to the county team down the years but they're all having to amalgamate to field teams at underage level now.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 06:22:24 PM
Also ye wouldn't have to be traipsing big long lanky lads across the country in cramped buses for training sessions.
That fancy bus ye have is hardly cramped!
Quote from: seafoid on May 11, 2017, 06:29:03 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
Money means sponsors with big wallets rather than prosperous citizens
You don't need a big bank balance to be a good footballer.
A new economic system that focused on workers rather than capital would help.
The psychology of mediocrity is a problem for the GAA. Meath have been down for a long time for example.
You need one to win an AI.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 11, 2017, 06:11:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 11, 2017, 05:44:59 PM
If money is a big factor surely rich Counties with big relatively well heeled populations like Kildare and Meath should be regular AI semi finalists at least???
Time to be considering Senior/Inter/Junior A I Championships.
Commuter culture in the satellite towns where the population growth has occurred in Kildare and Meath leads to a lack of local involvement and identity. The 'new' population in these towns are not native to the county and have no connection to it. A huge proportion of Kildare's population are not from Kildare. If population = success then the clubs in the north-east corner of the county would be dominant but only Celbridge are realistic contenders for the Kildare SFC.
65% of people in meath are blow ins according to census figures out today
The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.
damn straight. They grew up watching the 90's Meath teams.
Quote from: Jell 0 Biafra on May 12, 2017, 02:31:15 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 12:24:00 AM
The 65% are probably afraid of their lives to go near a GAA pitch.
damn straight. They grew up watching the 90's Meath teams.
More like Jack's boys in Italia 90 and USA 94..
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
Carlow and Longford are too small to win an all Ireland. Roscommon has the lowest population of a county that has won Sam
I was looking at all Irelands by economic period . I divided the country into different groups - Dubs, Kerry, BMW (Border Midlands West), 6 counties and other . "Other" covers economically prosperous and over the years had all Irelands from Cork, Meath, Kildare, Tipp, Wexford, Limerick and Louth. BMW is a proxy for economically disadvantaged. Kerry is sui generis because it consistently wins 30% of titles.
Economic periods were pre 26 county independence, closed economy (1922-59), Keynesian (1960 to 89) and Neoliberal (1990 to now).
Other counties have won around 25% of all Irelands while BMW have won 19%.
The 6 counties were handicapped by NI.
For BMW the best economic period in which to win an all Ireland was 1922-59
BMW won 37% of Sams during that period. The economy was a basket case. There was no money but it was evenly spread.
37% is 14 all Irelands. Other only won 6
During that period Cavan, Mayo and Roscommon all chipped in.
How money is spread around the country does matter. So does the security situation in the North.
It matters in terms of how the leftover all Irelands after Dublin and Kerry have taken their share are distributed.
There are a hundred and one factors that go into a county being competitive. Money is, of course, one of those factors and an important one at that but it isn't the defining one. Population is the defining factor. Every now and again a county will stump that, like Monaghan currently, but the trend will always be defined by population as it always has.
Seafoid, did you look at the relative size of populations in counties that were successful?
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
only if its spent well Sport is full of stories of teams having money poured into them and yet failing badly . was listening to radio last night and Keith Andrews was chatting about Blackburn , who got relegated to level 3 this year despite the venky's investing huge amounts but mainly by overpaying poor players
in GAA circle some counties seem more occupied with building White elephants rather than improving teams. there is still room for the small guy such as tipperary footballers but would be very difficult to keep it up over a long period that where money come into its own.
Quote from: Zulu on May 12, 2017, 10:33:02 AM
There are a hundred and one factors that go into a county being competitive. Money is, of course, one of those factors and an important one at that but it isn't the defining one. Population is the defining factor. Every now and again a county will stump that, like Monaghan currently, but the trend will always be defined by population as it always has.
Seafoid, did you look at the relative size of populations in counties that were successful?
I did but it's not that clear.
19 counties have won the All Ireland
Roscommon is the 27 th smallest currently in terms of population.
The big exceptions based on size are #2 antrim and #16 Wicklow.
Clare, Waterford and Kilkenny are hurling counties.
Other counties that are bigger than Ros that haven't won are Westmeath , Laois and Sligo.
Some of it is down to the culture of winning and Sligo was always more into soccer.
I think psychology is more important for Cork, for example, than the money or the population size.
The outstanding feature of GF is how many all Irelands Kerry and Dublin win over time.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
Granted, but as rosnarun points out there are plenty of wealthy sports entities that fail to achieve much. I remember listening to someone on the radio talk about the population of Cavan when they were winning All Irelands being much bigger than now. Talent will always be the biggest factor and you are likely to have more talent with bigger populations. It's not the only factor but it is the main one in the GAA IMO. In professional sports any sports team with money can buy the players you need, you could give Longford all the money in the world and they still wouldn't be All Ireland champions anytime soon. Give Longford town all the money in the world and they'd certainly be the best team in Ireland by the end of the year.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
I'd disagree with you both Dinny although it's a case of splitting very fine hairs.
Dublin has both and yet only became an unstoppable force when the county board devised a plan to put their resources to best use.
You need a sizeable population to supply the money needed but neither nor both will be enough without the presence of a structured organisational plan. Dublin was like the proverbial sleeping giant until 2010 when the most piss-poor Meath team of all time took them to them to the cleaners.
Then and only then did the county board sit down to devise a strategy for the future, the famous Blue Wave, and the rest is well to us all.
Cork, Galway, Kildare, Limerick and Meath in that order are the next most heavily populated counties and none of them are anywhere near good enough to win an AI at present. Galway has twice the population of Mayo but are far less likely to go the whole year than their neighbours are.
In plain English, you need a cohesive, structured plan of campaign which needs a sizeable population to generate the income necessary to go places.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 12, 2017, 04:15:04 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
I'd disagree with you both Dinny although it's a case of splitting very fine hairs.
Dublin has both and yet only became an unstoppable force when the county board devised a plan to put their resources to best use.
You need a sizeable population to supply the money needed but neither nor both will be enough without the presence of a structured organisational plan. Dublin was like the proverbial sleeping giant until 2010 when the most piss-poor Meath team of all time took them to them to the cleaners.
Then and only then did the county board sit down to devise a strategy for the future, the famous Blue Wave, and the rest is well to us all.
Cork, Galway, Kildare, Limerick and Meath in that order are the next most heavily populated counties and none of them are anywhere near good enough to win an AI at present. Galway has twice the population of Mayo but are far less likely to go the whole year than their neighbours are.
In plain English, you need a cohesive, structured plan of campaign which needs a sizeable population to generate the income necessary to go places.
Lar, the footballing part of Galway would be close enough population wise to Mayo.
Impediments to winning an All Ireland SFC
Population - Fermanagh Cavan Monaghan Sligo Laythrum Ros Longford Westmeath Offaly* Laois* Carlow -11
* hurley stuff also.
Armagh and Derry borderline cases. -2
Hurley stuff - Wexford Kilkenny Waterford Tipp Limerick Clare - 6.
Other - Antrim disorganised and no tradition, Louth soccer, Kildare horses and lost tradition of winning, Wicklow just about everything - 4.
So the All Ireland SFC is down to 9 - Donegal Tyrone Down
Galway Mayowestros
Cork Kerry
Dublin Meath.
Those 9 have 32 All Ireland Final appearances between them this Century. Armagh being the interlopers twice.
Mind you Meath and Down with only 1 Final appearance each makes the club even more exclusive.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
Impediments to winning an All Ireland SFC
Population - Fermanagh Cavan Monaghan Sligo Laythrum Ros Longford Westmeath Offaly* Laois* Carlow -11
* hurley stuff also.
Armagh and Derry borderline cases. -2
Hurley stuff - Wexford Kilkenny Waterford Tipp Limerick Clare - 6.
Other - Antrim disorganised and no tradition, Louth soccer, Kildare horses and lost tradition of winning, Wicklow just about everything - 4.
So the All Ireland SFC is down to 9 - Donegal Tyrone Down
Galway Mayowestros
Cork Kerry
Dublin Meath.
Those 9 have 32 All Ireland Final appearances between them this Century. Armagh being the interlopers twice.
Mind you Meath and Down with only 1 Final appearance each makes the club even more exclusive.
And Galway have been within an arse's roar of one since 2001.
Money has widened the gap to the point it's not bridgable by passion and talent alone anymore. With a properly centralised funding system for IC would come strong HQ oversight and expertise on financial management and coaching, akin somewhat to the provincial model in Irish Rugby.
That's what the people trying to pretend money isn't the root of the warped nature of our sport fail to realise - that money always needs good oversight to work effectively. No one has ever suggested the GAA just hand blank cheques to the non-monied counties. Straw men left right and centre on this one. It's no surprise the sport is in such a state.
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
Impediments to winning an All Ireland SFC
Population - Fermanagh Cavan Monaghan Sligo Laythrum Ros Longford Westmeath Offaly* Laois* Carlow -11
* hurley stuff also.
Armagh and Derry borderline cases. -2
Hurley stuff - Wexford Kilkenny Waterford Tipp Limerick Clare - 6.
Other - Antrim disorganised and no tradition, Louth soccer, Kildare horses and lost tradition of winning, Wicklow just about everything - 4.
So the All Ireland SFC is down to 9 - Donegal Tyrone Down
Galway Mayowestros
Cork Kerry
Dublin Meath.
Those 9 have 32 All Ireland Final appearances between them this Century. Armagh being the interlopers twice.
Mind you Meath and Down with only 1 Final appearance each makes the club even more exclusive.
The footballing populations of Down and Armagh would be very similar. By my reckoning, both counties currently have exactly the same number of football clubs. Armagh might have more 'small' clubs, though it's hard to say. Unionists make up a much higher proportion of Down's population.
Quote from: seafoid on May 12, 2017, 04:27:01 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 12, 2017, 04:15:04 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 12, 2017, 10:40:23 AM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 10:55:42 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 11, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Quote from: Zulu on May 11, 2017, 04:31:13 PM
That's not true. The GAA is the way it is because it's not a level playing field and never was. Money maybe increasing the gap between the top 3-6 and the rest but it isn't the main issue. For two thirds of the country they haven't had a golden age of any description in living memory.
Money and it's distribution is the biggest issue.
It's not Dinny. If it was then we'd have seen a far more equitable GAA in previous generations. Of course it's a big issue but Longford, Roscommon or Carlow would more easily close the gap with an extra 100,000 people rather than an extra €1 million. The GAA has always been unfair, financially, as much as anything else and money won't solve the imbalance.
I disagree in sport money is the single most important factor, it's why they have salary caps and wealth taxes in US and Australian sports. It's why the UK can dominate the Olympics ahead of countries like Russia and China with far bigger populations. The more money invested the greater the results.
I'd disagree with you both Dinny although it's a case of splitting very fine hairs.
Dublin has both and yet only became an unstoppable force when the county board devised a plan to put their resources to best use.
You need a sizeable population to supply the money needed but neither nor both will be enough without the presence of a structured organisational plan. Dublin was like the proverbial sleeping giant until 2010 when the most piss-poor Meath team of all time took them to them to the cleaners.
Then and only then did the county board sit down to devise a strategy for the future, the famous Blue Wave, and the rest is well to us all.
Cork, Galway, Kildare, Limerick and Meath in that order are the next most heavily populated counties and none of them are anywhere near good enough to win an AI at present. Galway has twice the population of Mayo but are far less likely to go the whole year than their neighbours are.
In plain English, you need a cohesive, structured plan of campaign which needs a sizeable population to generate the income necessary to go places.
Lar, the footballing part of Galway would be close enough population wise to Mayo.
It is indeed but I imagine that a prospective sponsor would be prepared to pay more to advertise with Galway rather than Mayo-all things being equal of course. Right now, Mayo has a higher profile than the heron-chokers so that could skew the calculations somewhat. I'd say a sponsor will go by the size of the potential market when negotiating a deal and the Galway market is twice that of Mayo. Logistics are important also.
Dublin is a fairly tight geographical area and it would be most unusual for any player to live or work/study more than a half hour's journey away from the training ground. I very much doubt that all Galway players are so well set up but they should be thankful they don't play for Leitrim!
Things may have changed since I was last down there but back then, the county panel trained in Trim as it was roughly halfway between Leitrim and Dublin. Going on the basis that a good big 'un will always beat a good little 'un, I think population size is very important but not all that is needed to win an AI.
Quote from: Syferus on May 12, 2017, 05:23:47 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on May 12, 2017, 04:53:09 PM
Impediments to winning an All Ireland SFC
Population - Fermanagh Cavan Monaghan Sligo Laythrum Ros Longford Westmeath Offaly* Laois* Carlow -11
* hurley stuff also.
Armagh and Derry borderline cases. -2
Hurley stuff - Wexford Kilkenny Waterford Tipp Limerick Clare - 6.
Other - Antrim disorganised and no tradition, Louth soccer, Kildare horses and lost tradition of winning, Wicklow just about everything - 4.
So the All Ireland SFC is down to 9 - Donegal Tyrone Down
Galway Mayowestros
Cork Kerry
Dublin Meath.
Those 9 have 32 All Ireland Final appearances between them this Century. Armagh being the interlopers twice.
Mind you Meath and Down with only 1 Final appearance each makes the club even more exclusive.
And Galway have been within an arse's roar of one since 2001.
Money has widened the gap to the point it's not bridgable by passion and talent alone anymore. With a properly centralised funding system for IC would come strong HQ oversight and expertise on financial management and coaching, akin somewhat to the provincial model in Irish Rugby.
That's what the people trying to pretend money isn't the root of the warped nature of our sport fail to realise - that money always needs good oversight to work effectively. No one has ever suggested the GAA just hand blank cheques to the non-monied counties. Straw men left right and centre on this one. It's no surprise the sport is in such a state.
Well put Syf. Let it never be said that I never agreed with you!
Being from the commuter-belt (but not inside the pale) one huge problem that I see with the likes of Kildare, Meath and Wicklow that would have decent sized towns full of blow-ins is the lack of real engagement from the more urban clubs.
Now say what you want about more money for the counties and about Leinster GAA giving more coaches, but at the end of the day it costs nothing to get up of your hole and knock on the doors of the new estates in all these counties and get kids down to the pitch.
It is something very stark for a while in Kildare that the small, rural parts of the county are able to compete with much larger bases. That is the main issue in Kildare in my mind. A massive gap in engagement.
It's too easy to just blame the 'suits in Croke Park' when counties, clubs and GAA members need to do more. In many counties the ex-county players are simply not involved. I would have been part of the Kildare 98 generation and I really think Kildare missed the bloat in terms of harnessing those lads.
Kildare have Hawkfield training centre, their own gym and don't want for anything from the time they come into the development squads. The Dubs are blessed right now with serious talent and application.
Teams need to at least match the latter before we all complain about money. Christ in Leinster teams just lie down after ten minutes against them. Not even a decent hit and that has nothing to do with money.
Others have F all resources and I really look at the likes of Monaghan. They eek out everything they can from a small base and you don't hear them talking about cash. If the aforementioned commuter belt applied the idea that they need EVERY player from GoGames up they would be better served.
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 12, 2017, 10:35:08 PM
Being from the commuter-belt (but not inside the pale) one huge problem that I see with the likes of Kildare, Meath and Wicklow that would have decent sized towns full of blow-ins is the lack of real engagement from the more urban clubs.
Now say what you want about more money for the counties and about Leinster GAA giving more coaches, but at the end of the day it costs nothing to get up of your hole and knock on the doors of the new estates in all these counties and get kids down to the pitch.
It is something very stark for a while in Kildare that the small, rural parts of the county are able to compete with much larger bases. That is the main issue in Kildare in my mind. A massive gap in engagement.
It's too easy to just blame the 'suits in Croke Park' when counties, clubs and GAA members need to do more. In many counties the ex-county players are simply not involved. I would have been part of the Kildare 98 generation and I really think Kildare missed the bloat in terms of harnessing those lads.
Kildare have Hawkfield training centre, their own gym and don't want for anything from the time they come into the development squads. The Dubs are blessed right now with serious talent and application.
Teams need to at least match the latter before we all complain about money. Christ in Leinster teams just lie down after ten minutes against them. Not even a decent hit and that has nothing to do with money.
Others have F all resources and I really look at the likes of Monaghan. They eek out everything they can from a small base and you don't hear them talking about cash. If the aforementioned commuter belt applied the idea that they need EVERY player from GoGames up they would be better served.
That is all anecdotal have you any figures to back up participation levels in Kildare compared to Dublin. We know for a fact Dublin get disporpotionally more money than any other county. They have more paid coaches than any other county. This idea of hard work is bollix I coach 50 u6s in my club where does that fit in with your anecdotal evidence.
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:15:58 AM
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
I used to visit my aunt in Clane. It was a small village with one street in the 50s. Now it is a commuter town 20 miles from Dublin with nearly 7000 people., more than Westport. It wasn't planned. Nothing was.They just built estates. Ireland is hopeless at planning. The problem.is particularly acute in Leinster .
I remember waiting for the bus to Dublin years ago one morning and marvelling at all the people driving slowly to work. It is a different lifestyle.
.
I think the GAA has had a hard job converting the people in semi urban areas (although Clane did win a few county titles back in the 90s ). It is the same in Cork. Maybe it will develop over time. GAA is about culture and identity and you can't just switch it on in a place. There is nothing like a successful.underage team to get a bit of momentum.going. That's how Crossmaglen started. But it takes timè
If you drive in the direction of Edenderry you go through smaller villages which are not plugged into suburban Dublin and presumably more GAA stylè.
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:15:58 AM
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
Maynooth Celbridge and Leixlip have won a grand total of 2 Kildare SFC in almost 300 years between them but let's blame the volunteers for not maximising the population at their disposal for not working hard enough. Seafoid nailed culture as you can see with Dublin/Kerry or to keep it at a Kildare level Sarsfields/Moorefield. By the way Kildare have won 3 of the last 4 Leinster minor championships are they not the direct product of the 97/00 football hysteria that engulfed Kildare?
Meath is similar . It's not about population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meath_Senior_Football_Championship#Roll_of_honour
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2017, 07:52:26 AM
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:15:58 AM
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
Maynooth Celbridge and Leixlip have won a grand total of 2 Kildare SFC in almost 300 years between them but let's blame the volunteers for not maximising the population at their disposal for not working hard enough. Seafoid nailed culture as you can see with Dublin/Kerry or to keep it at a Kildare level Sarsfields/Moorefield. By the way Kildare have won 3 of the last 4 Leinster minor championships are they not the direct product of the 97/00 football hysteria that engulfed Kildare?
It will be interesting to see if Naas can replicate their current underage success at senior level over the next decade. They're probably the biggest underachievers in Kildare football all things considered. They always had the numbers and a handful of good footballers but were never as tough as the Newbridge clubs with their tradition and their army influence. Leixlip won three or four county underage titles in a row around the turn of the millennium and never built on it.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on May 13, 2017, 09:44:01 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2017, 07:52:26 AM
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:15:58 AM
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
Maynooth Celbridge and Leixlip have won a grand total of 2 Kildare SFC in almost 300 years between them but let's blame the volunteers for not maximising the population at their disposal for not working hard enough. Seafoid nailed culture as you can see with Dublin/Kerry or to keep it at a Kildare level Sarsfields/Moorefield. By the way Kildare have won 3 of the last 4 Leinster minor championships are they not the direct product of the 97/00 football hysteria that engulfed Kildare?
It will be interesting to see if Naas can replicate their current underage success at senior level over the next decade. They're probably the biggest underachievers in Kildare football all things considered. They always had the numbers and a handful of good footballers but were never as tough as the Newbridge clubs with their tradition and their army influence. Leixlip won three or four county underage titles in a row around the turn of the millennium and never built on it.
I asked the same questions regarding Naas to a good friend who is from one of the N'bridge clubs. He just said "No, there's something fundamentally wrong with them".
I put this to another friend who is a Naas man, and former Kildare footballer. He was equally as negative. Said they can't control their numbers underage, and that the football-hurling split in the club is causing serious problems, as all the young lads want to do both.
There is probably no other club (certainly in Leinster) who are underachieving to the same extent as Naas, given their resources. The only other 1 club town as large is Portlaoise, and they have been successful. I wonder if there was a second club in Naas would both clubs end up being stronger than the current club.
Good old K4, population of the Town is over 23k, no SFC since 1990 and it was the 30s before then. They are building but underage success is no guarantee of senior success. Always considered a bit soft compared to the country boys or the working class towns of Newbridge Kildare and Athy. In their defence they have had to compete with Naas Rugby Club and Naas CBS was hardly a nursery and a lot of kids go to Newbridge College Piper Hill and Colaiste Gaelscoil none exactly bastions of GAA excellence either. Throw in soccer clubs and all the other competing codes and pastimes, what other town in Ireland has 2 race courses. The next few years will tell the tale though. Kildare need them to step up.
I wonder about Cork. In the last 3 years they have only beaten 4 teams - Limerick,Clare, Longford and Sligo
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 13, 2017, 07:52:26 AM
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:15:58 AM
Apologies if this is boring other posters but the evidence is laid bare in the fact that since 2000 Celbridge are the only team from the highly-populated North of Kildare to win a SFC.
In that time rural clubs like Allenwood and Carbury reached finals because they eeked out everything from their resources. Thats my point here. Other clubs and in turn counties dont even get the best out of what they have.
I dont have figures but by sheer volune i take it that you accept that numbers playing in Dublin are higher so they will get more coaches.
Can anyone tell us what a breakdown coach:player ratio is? In any county for that matter.
What i have said and will continue to say is that Kildare and Meath missed the boat years ago when the good times rolled.
Right now the nursery systems are flat out in all the clubs so fair play on that.
Maynooth Celbridge and Leixlip have won a grand total of 2 Kildare SFC in almost 300 years between them but let's blame the volunteers for not maximising the population at their disposal for not working hard enough. Seafoid nailed culture as you can see with Dublin/Kerry or to keep it at a Kildare level Sarsfields/Moorefield. By the way Kildare have won 3 of the last 4 Leinster minor championships are they not the direct product of the 97/00 football hysteria that engulfed Kildare?
Here's a good culture quote, Dinny
https://www.facebook.com/irishtimessport/posts/1032969043450700
"I don't know if it is a thing that players in Galway let seep into their mind from things that are said. Maybe the general people in Galway might be a bit soft in that 'Aw, we'll go up and compete anyway. If we win we win, if we lose we lose.' Whereas you can see in Kilkenny, even talking to people, they want to win all the time. That's their mentality and that reflects in the players as well.
As was mentioned the GAA and Ireland is much more urban now and needs to compete more in these areas. The classic town clubs will always be there while ithers can't tap into things.
I know in and around Athlone a lad was telling me about organised street leagues he played in years ago. Is that a thing still?
They are something the paid coaches could be doing with local support. Then we all gave to be patient to see what happens Dublin, Kerry plus maybe another 2 while the others scrap it out.
Realistically the top 8 has really always been a top 4 with interchangeable teams that have great summers but can't get over the line.
Quote from: Captain Scarlet on May 13, 2017, 02:01:51 PM
As was mentioned the GAA and Ireland is much more urban now and needs to compete more in these areas. The classic town clubs will always be there while ithers can't tap into things.
I know in and around Athlone a lad was telling me about organised street leagues he played in years ago. Is that a thing still?
They are something the paid coaches could be doing with local support. Then we all gave to be patient to see what happens Dublin, Kerry plus maybe another 2 while the others scrap it out.
Realistically the top 8 has really always been a top 4 with interchangeable teams that have great summers but can't get over the line.
The street leagues were organised by Athlone GAA. But at the time they were setup they were the only club on the Westmeath side. Garrycastle were formed in the early 80's and the street leagues died. The towns are a huge battleground for players. You can have guys from the same estates playing with different clubs.