Seanad Éireann - should it stay or should it go?

[Hardy]

Perhaps a premature ejaculation on my part. Tallies were suggesting 55% "No" earlier - seems to be tightening up now. Betfair has just flicked from 1.05 to 1.11 "No", though they're odds-on "Yes" as well!

[Hardy]

Steady on cowboy, it's early days yet.

I'm amazed anyone could try to defend the Seanad as an institution, but there you go.

Who defended the Seanad as an institution?

[Shamrock Shore]

I am not defending the Seanad.

I am against the likes of Kenny pulling this referendum out of his arse to solve a problem he thought he had at the time.

Using the Constitution for acting the baulix is not on in my book.

[AQMP]

Well done the electorate. With only one exception I can think of (when they were threatened with lies) they have always rejected attempts by governments and politicians to give themselves more power, leeway or privileges or to reduce the level of scrutiny of their doings. This crowd went further and even tried blackmail - vote for this "reform" or there won't be any more reform. How did they imagine the people would wear that?

The politicoes always get this wrong in their arrogance. They fail to grasp the fact that the people (at least those interested enough to inform themselves) value the constitution even more than they despise the politicians. The people understand that the constitution is not a tool of the government but is there to protect us from the government.

Good post Hardy.  Had I been entitled to vote I would have voted "No" (sure I'm from the North, this is my default position!).  For me one of the little discussed benefits of a United Ireland would be to be part of an electorate (those who give a toss anyway) that is able to look at an issue with a bit of perspective and not to make a choice based on whether it's good or bad for themmuns but whether it's good or bad for all.  I used to wonder what some commentators meant when they said that one of the differences between he North and South was that RoI was a "mature democracy".  It's starting to mean something.

I'm somewhat surprised that this issue did not generate more interest in Nordies particularly Nationalists and what SF were doing in the Yes camp baffles me since the Seanad is an institution that has a history of Northern representation and therefore can make the claim (maybe dubious) of being an all Ireland body.  Maybe SF want exclusivity on this

The Seanad needs reformed surely but any move that concentrates more power in the government of the day needs careful scrutiny.

[trileacman]

The problem with the Seanad is that it has no power and so it is defunct. The only reform to correct that is to bin it or give it more power. I repeat the only reform the Seanad needs is to be given greater power to challenge the government when necessary.

Now what party in the next thousand f**king years of Dail Erieann is going to give power to a house it won't have absolute control over?

Dream on lads, the Seanad will stay, because we want it to and will remain the exact f**king same, because they want it to.

[Syferus]

The problem with the Seanad is that it has no power and so it is defunct. The only reform to correct that is to bin it or give it more power.

No what party in the next thousand f**king years of Dail Erieann is going to give power to a house it won't have absolute control over.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks the Seanad will ever be so  empowered so it is not simpy a pointless drain on expenses and time is living in the land of candy, sweet things and united Irelands and not reality.

There was only one vote that could effect lasting change yesterday but there is such apathy with regard politics that the majority who would be happy to see the end of the Seanad aren't engaged enough to get off their arses and vote. Victory through apathy is nothing any of the No supporters should be proud of.

A victory for the Gaybos and the FF hardliners of the world seems to be on the cards.

[trileacman]

The problem with the Seanad is that it has no power and so it is defunct. The only reform to correct that is to bin it or give it more power.

No what party in the next thousand f**king years of Dail Erieann is going to give power to a house it won't have absolute control over.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks the Seanad will ever be so  empowered so it is not simpy a pointless drain on expenses and time is living in the land of candy, sweet things and united Irelands and not reality.

There was only one vote that could effect lasting change yesterday but there is such apathy with regard politics that the majority who would be happy to see the end of the Seanad aren't engaged enough to get off their arses and vote. Victory through apathy is nothing any of the No supporters should be proud of.

A victory for the Gaybos and the FF hardliners of the world seems to be on the cards.

I think you're wrong. It seems you believe we should just facilitate the government consolidating all the power against the people.

That's just f**king stupid

[Hardy]

Victory through apathy is nothing any of the No supporters should be proud of.

So I presume you didn't vote, if your vote was to mean nothing. Because the same logic (if that's what it is) would apply if it had been a victory for the Yes supporters.

[Syferus]

The problem with the Seanad is that it has no power and so it is defunct. The only reform to correct that is to bin it or give it more power.

No what party in the next thousand f**king years of Dail Erieann is going to give power to a house it won't have absolute control over.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks the Seanad will ever be so  empowered so it is not simpy a pointless drain on expenses and time is living in the land of candy, sweet things and united Irelands and not reality.

There was only one vote that could effect lasting change yesterday but there is such apathy with regard politics that the majority who would be happy to see the end of the Seanad aren't engaged enough to get off their arses and vote. Victory through apathy is nothing any of the No supporters should be proud of.

A victory for the Gaybos and the FF hardliners of the world seems to be on the cards.

I think you're wrong. It seems you believe we should just facilitate the government consolidating all the power against the people.

That's just f**king stupid

If you honestly think the Seanad can hold the Dail to account or offers a genuine check-and-balance then you need to spend some time watching the Seanad operate. It's a nursing home for failed politicians/somewhat successful retired businessmen with political connections with a couple good men and women thrown in.

If this was a Bulmers brewery they'd just dump the whole crop and start over rather than trying to salvage the few good apples.

[Syferus]

Victory through apathy is nothing any of the No supporters should be proud of.

So I presume you didn't vote, if your vote was to mean nothing. Because the same logic (if that's what it is) would apply if it had been a victory for the Yes supporters.

Polling generally reflected a win for the Yes campaign in the lead-up to yesterday's vote, indeed the Ipsos MRBI poll from last Monday found a large lead for the Yes side at 62% to 38% when undecided voters were removed.

It's still somewhat up in the air but the result looks like it's going in the opposite direction, and certainly far tighter than polling would have had you believe. That indicates that people willing to vote Yes likely didn't bother to vote as it's quite unlikely they completely reversed their positions in a few days and voted No or that almost all undecided voters actually voted and voted overwhelmingly No.

The No side, were they to lose, could not point to apathy as the reason they lost because the pre-vote polling does not support that opinion.

[Hardy]

If you honestly think the Seanad can hold the Dail to account or offers a genuine check-and-balance then you need to spend some time watching the Seanad operate. It's a nursing home for failed politicians/somewhat successful retired businessmen with political connections with a couple good men and women thrown in.

If this was a Bulmers brewery they'd just dump the whole crop and start over rather than trying to salvage the few good apples.

You've missed the whole reform debate completely, then?

Polling generally reflected a win for the Yes campaign in the lead-up to yesterday's vote, indeed the Ipsos MRBI poll from last Monday found a large lead for the Yes side at 62% to 38% when undecided voters were removed.

It's still somewhat up in the air but the result looks like it's going in the opposite direction, and certainly far tighter than polling would have had you believe. That indicates that people willing to vote Yes likely didn't bother to vote as it's quite unlikely they completely reversed their positions in a few days and voted No or that almost all undecided voters actually voted and voted overwhelmingly No.

The No side, were they to lose, could not point to apathy as the reason they lost because the pre-vote polling does not support that opinion.

That's handy. If you won, it was a genuine result; if you lost it wasn't quite valid.

[Syferus]

If you honestly think the Seanad can hold the Dail to account or offers a genuine check-and-balance then you need to spend some time watching the Seanad operate. It's a nursing home for failed politicians/somewhat successful retired businessmen with political connections with a couple good men and women thrown in.

If this was a Bulmers brewery they'd just dump the whole crop and start over rather than trying to salvage the few good apples.

You've missed the whole reform debate completely, then?

Polling generally reflected a win for the Yes campaign in the lead-up to yesterday's vote, indeed the Ipsos MRBI poll from last Monday found a large lead for the Yes side at 62% to 38% when undecided voters were removed.

It's still somewhat up in the air but the result looks like it's going in the opposite direction, and certainly far tighter than polling would have had you believe. That indicates that people willing to vote Yes likely didn't bother to vote as it's quite unlikely they completely reversed their positions in a few days and voted No or that almost all undecided voters actually voted and voted overwhelmingly No.

The No side, were they to lose, could not point to apathy as the reason they lost because the pre-vote polling does not support that opinion.

That's handy. If you won, it was a genuine result; if you lost it wasn't quite valid.

It's plenty handy when the polling supports what you say, yeah.

Making the opposite case (that a No loss meant voter apathy) is untenable because the direction of the debate and polling contradicts that being the majority opinion in the country and so a higher turnout would have been harmful to the No side and helpful to the Yes side. The same metrics apply in many Western countries with regards left and right parties, high turnouts being an indicator of good tidings for the generally younger and more wishy-washy left, lower turnouts helping the older, more-likely-to-vote right.

Go on, someone champion this result as some sort of victory by the electorate against a power grab by the government. People simply didn't give a damn.

Apathy have saved an empty vessel and you certainly won't get the reform you're hoping for. A bad day for Ireland all round.

[Hardy]

The people who didn't vote didn't give a damn. The people who voted gave enough of a damn to turn out and stop the power grab. Simple - that's how it works. Bleating about turnout is irrelevant. If you don't care enough to vote, how and why are we supposed to accommodate your opinion? Your opinion doesn't count by definition and the people are right by definition, no matter who doesn't like it.

All else is speculation. It's always a good day for democracy when attempted government manipulation of the constitution for their own benefit, not that of the people, is thwarted.

[StephenC]

The people have spoken. Stand back in awe while the Seanad flexes it's political muscles by .... delaying legislation then passing it. 

[trileacman]

Apathy have saved an empty vessel and you certainly won't get the reform you're hoping for. A bad day for Ireland all round.

More bullshit. The people of Ireland told the government that they can't just shovel what they want to do down our throats. It has embarrassed alot of the parties (mostly FG) and has shown them there accountable to the people.

The government will think twice before hammering out it's next legislation.