Messages

Yes soft unionists is probably wrong, a protestant voter who wouldn't vote for UUP/DUP/TUV is probably best..

People vote - or don't vote - in regular elections for a whole host of reasons. But that is very different from a Referendum likw this.

Look at Scotland, for instance. At the time of their vote, the SNP was riding high as the biggest party in the country, indeed the party of government. Yet the referendum was lost, since even some people who voted SNP for a variety of reasons could not all be relied on to come out and vote "Yes".

While if you look at the Brexit referendum, many people in constituencies with strong Labour or LibDem representatiion (i.e. Remain parties) , came out to vote Leave. Indeed, there were people who had never voted in an ordinary election who came out to vote, with a majority of them for Leave, which swung the vote.

I personally have little doubt that very many "Garden Centre Unionists" would make the effort to get out and vote in a Referendum, especially if they see SF stoking up the rhetoric on the other side. Ditto Alliance Party voters in predominantly Unionist* areas.


* - That is, 90% of them. 

It is true that there will be a swathe of Unionists who if presented with the right case for a UI may well abandon their Unionist principles...

Sorry, but it not "true" as in established fact, rather it is your opinion.

And while I'm not sure how many constitute a swathe", in my direct experience of that community, they are very few indeed.

Further, it is my opinion - backed up consistently by polling - that however many of these persuadable Unionists there are, they are outnumbered by the "swathe" of Nationalists who would not bother to vote, or might even vote to remain ("cake and eat it").

Moreover, as I've tried to argue, for Unionists it's not even a question of "principles", but of Identity. And I really cannot see many Unionists abandoning that identity lightly.

In fact, if a Yes vote to leave the UK could even remotely risk entering a united Ireland where SF could be the largest single party, then I don't think any would take that chance.

(And if people on this forum have a problem with understanding that last point, just remember that your average Unionist holds SF in the same regard as your average Nationalist holds the DUP.)

As we're going to find out shortly there is neither a majority of unionists or nationalists, soft or otherwise in NI/6 counties with that trend only going in the one direction based on the age profiles of said groupings.

Unionist's hugging the east coast are oblivious to the growth in the Nationalist population around them.

Ah, I see, you're another of those Nationalists who are now into their second "Century of Wishful Thinking"!

Lets get down to basics. It doesnt matter how you count the two tribes in a census - Prods, Unioniosts, Loyalists etc or RCs, Nats, Republicans etc.

Rather its about two things, how and whether they would vote in a Referendum.

And for the former ("how"), it's not about designation, policies, economics, personalities and tactical voting etc, i.e. the usual things which influence voters in a regular election. Rather, as eg the Scottish or Brexit referenda demonstrated, it's all about Identity.

On which point, whether "Unionists" vote TUV, DUP, UUP or Alliance etc, or (increasingly) don't vote at all normally, all the evidence suggests thay they will turn out solidly in any referendum to preserve their British identity, if only from "clinging to Nurse, for fear of something worse". For remember, Unionists have only to lose once, for it to be forever. So I have no doubt that there will be a big turnout of the 1m-odd "Unionists" in any referendum, and I am equally confident that very few, if any, would consider voting for a UI.

As for the latter ("whether" they vote ), while I'm confident of the Unionist turnout, I'm not nearly so worried about the Nationalist turnout. Now don't get me wrong, when it comes to the secrecy of the voting booth, those Nationalists who do turn out will so0lidly vote for a UI, rather than remain.

But I genuinely believe that a proportion of Nationalists sufficient to lose the vote for a UI simply will not bother to turn out, since the status quo means Nationalists can continue to have their "NI cake" while also eating their "UI cake". That is, if staying in NI, they get to keep their more affordable housing, NHS, government jobs/pensions etc. While thanks to the GFA, they would still have their Irish (and EU) identity etc. (Think eg Ciara Mageean, or any number of "Nationalist" boxers competing in both the Commonwealth Games for NI, and in the Europeans for Ireland)

Which explains why when polled, so many "Nationalists", especially the younger ones, now tend to identify themselves as "Northern Irish", rather than "Irish". (Think eg Rory McIlroy, Michael ONeill or any number of young "Nationalist" soccer players who are quite happy to turn out for NI teams.).

Meaning that even if the new census indicates a "Nationalist" majority, I genuinely don't consider that this poses any real threat to the Union in a referendum and why I would actually call SF's bluff, in their regular, but embarrassingly half-hearted, calls for a border poll.

Of course I don't expect many (any?) on this board to agree with my reasoning - some won't even acknowledge it - but if it were within my gift to call a referendum, I'd say: "Bring it on!" 

Good girl Ciara!



"[Her] decision to stay away from the World Championships to focus on the Commonwealth Games and Europeans was fully vindicated."
https://www.rte.ie/sport/athletics/2022/0824/1318628-mageean-magic-inspiring-a-new-audience/

[give them what they are looking for, an excuse to stay in the UK.]

It's simple and has nothing to do with WT's or any of their songs... if you want a UI then you'll not get it without the soft unionists. Now if you are happy with the way things are then hell yes blast those tunes out and give them what they are looking for, an excuse to stay in the UK.

I've not read this thread properly, nor do I intend to get into this whole, tired and tiresome "whataboutery" of who sang what and where etc.

But I was struck by that one aspect of your otherwise measured and reasonable post(s).

Namely, Unionists don't "need an excuse" for staying in the UK. Rather we've got plenty of our own reasons for same, whether you appreciate them or not.

Rather, if there is to be a UI, then Nationalists need to offer us reasons to join a UI.

Further, in your appeal to "soft Unionists", you don't seem to appreciate that the minute a Unionist - "soft" or otherwise - agrees to a UI, then that it is it, they are no longer a "Unionist" and have automatically abandoned their British identity.

And this last point is a crucial one, which even moderate Nationalists generally seem unable to comprehend. For when they say - sincerely no doubt - that Unionists will be welcome in any UI, they don't realise that without the Union, there can be no Unionists, whether in the 6 northern counties or in the 32 counties as a whole. (Look to the Irish Free State post-1921 for proof of same)

Which gets us back to the need for Nationalists to provide positive, progressive reasons for Unionists to abandon the identity we've been holding on to for hundreds of years.

P.S. I would suggest to anyone on this board who is struggling with the above concepts, that they ask themselves the question: "What would it take* for me to abandon my Nationalist identity and throw my lot in fully with the UK?"

* - Another 800 years, perhaps? 

Welcome back, EG.

How does this Commonwealth Games thing operate, then? My understanding is that most sports are governed on an all-Ireland basis.  Do the Irish federations for the likes of Cricket, Hockey, and Track-and-Field set up a special division for the CG so they can field an NI team?

Not sure about the exact process, but all-Ireland sports can choose to permit/accommodate an NI team for the CG if they choose. It's kinda easier for individual sports than team sports, since you dont want to discriminate or deny chances to the former (individuals), while the latter (teams) are maybe more sensitive because of the "representative" side of things.

Probably the most prominent sports for NI are Boxing and Bowls. For Boxing, the Ulster (9 county) Branch of the IABA is delegated the task of preparing and managing the team and tbf, they seem to embrace it completely. Dunno much about Bowls, mind, but I have a feeling it's more popular in NI than ROI? Either way, I suspect there's NI Sports Council funding in play, which may influence the governing bodies? While for the competitors themselves, it's an opportunity to compete at a decent level for those who may not be good enough to make the Olympics. Also a couple of weeks in the sun! (Last time was in Oz, next time Canada and even Brum enjoyed good weather this time).

However some other sports are much more tricky. There is no good reason imo why Rugby couldn't enter a 7's team made up of NI players, but I suspect the IRFU would explode before they allowed that.

Similarly with Hockey, NI provides more than its share of players for Ireland - and occasionally a few Olympians for the GB team - so there's no (imo good) reason why you couldn't have an NI team, but I guess it's sensitive? Ditto Cricket.

Meanwhile Netball is not administered on an all-Ireland basis, so Team NI gets an entry there.

As for Track and Field, essentially they're individuals, a mix of f-t pro, semi-pro and amateur (near enough) and organised by NI Athletics, so although there's no prize money involved, athletes really should be allowed to compete if they choose*.

On which last point I doubt any have ever declined to take part, for even if it's not near the standard of the Olympics or Worlds, it's a reasonable level and a good opportunity for them to enjoy a multi-sports Games, with all that brings for training, competition and exposure etc.

That's if you don't mind attracting a "skelp" from Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on this forum if you're from a Nationalist vackground... 



* - Unless they're allowing their flat to be used for dealing in drugs, that is! 

You know, something like (ahem) Danny Boy? 

Danny they/them?

Good point!

How about Danny Boy when it's the boys playing and Danny Girl when the girls are playing.

Not sure about mixed teams, though. 

The Londonderry Air, perhaps? 

[I'm all for a new neutral flag.]

Meanwhile, if your argument is that no self-respecting Nationalist should be seen anywhere near an event featuring the NI flag, does that mean that you're not bothered about Unionists declining to participate in GAA events because of the presence of Tricolours and the Soldiers Song there?

Not bothered at all. I'm all for a new neutral flag.

And anthem?

You know, something like (ahem) Danny Boy? 

I'm talking about in a united Ireland

So to be clear, what are your preferences for flag and anthem (a ) under the present dispensation, and (b ) in a united Ireland?

[slagging off SDLP. Gobsmacked]

Honestly I'm astounded at the croppies on here, and a lot of lads who spend their time slagging off SDLP. Gobsmacked

Please just admit that's why you have this post?  You get annoyed because people give off about SDLP taking seats in London? They aint the same and not even close...

Deal with each issues for what it is, there is no crossover.. Sports people don't give a flying f**k, they are only there for the sport, that may be difficult for you to understand but it is...

Photo's of flegs must really get on peoples tits

It's absolutely 2 cheeks of the same arse, it's the most un Irish thing you can do, head off to a games celebrating servitude and slavery under the banner of the crown . There are loads of other competitions, this one is poor standard anyhow . As you said maybe a chance for people that aren't up to world standard to wrap a flag around them

As I said before you'll never understand the effort that these athletes go to, and for you to be all political about it is a bit childish

Again you seem hung up on flegs and politics and bringing sport into it to suit your argument or position.

Sport is sport, this championship is a big deal in the sporting calendar ... You said there are loads of competitions? Olympic, World, European and Commonwealth... There are various competitions but they don't have the collective atmosphere of a 'Games' 

There is no championships that are held really on a personal level, its about representation, the same competitors in gymnastics will be representing Ireland in November at the World championships

You will be up at Windsor park next

And most welcome Milltown would be.

Meanwhile, if your argument is that no self-respecting Nationalist should be seen anywhere near an event featuring the NI flag, does that mean that you're not bothered about Unionists declining to participate in GAA events because of the presence of Tricolours and the Soldiers Song there?

Not bothered at all. I'm all for a new neutral flag.

And anthem?

You know, something like (ahem) Danny Boy? 

[emphasis]

Meanwhile, Ms. Mageean has just set Irish unity back another week or two...

(My emphasis)
"This is my third Commonwealth Games and it is third time lucky," she said.

"I had a discussion with my coach, Helen Clitheroe, before the race and she discussed the Commonwealth Games where she finished fourth when she was up there challenging for a gold medal.

"She told me that she went out for gold in the race and doesn't regret that, so that was the point where I thought I was going to go out and go for gold.

"If I failed to do that and finished anywhere else in the field then at least I tried my best to be on the top of the podium.

"That was my aim, Laura had legs and that bit of a kick, but I'm proud to have a silver and finally have a medal at the Commonwealth Games."

Mageean, who had her parents, boyfriend and aunt in attendance in Birmingham, said she was trying to judge the gap to Muir and the field behind on the big screens at the Alexandra Stadium but the footage kept panning to the crowd every time she glanced up.

"The whole crowd has been phenomenal, it's the best crowd I have ever run in front of in the whole of my career," she added.

"I think I might have had one of the slowest laps of honour in history because I threw up along the way a few times.

"It's phenomenal going around and seeing the Northern Irish flag up there and hearing the familiar twang, someone will say 'well done, Ciara' and you can immediately tell they are from home because, let's face it, we have a distinctive accent."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/commonwealth-games/62462812

And most welcome Milltown would be.

Meanwhile, if your argument is that no self-respecting Nationalist should be seen anywhere near an event featuring the NI flag, does that mean that you're not bothered about Unionists declining to participate in GAA events because of the presence of Tricolours and the Soldiers Song there?

You are making a false equivalence between using a loyalist symbol with no official status whatsoever to represent a political entity set up for sectarian purposes and a flag representing irish people everywhere which is also the flag of normal democratic state.

Blah, blah, blah.

So when people fly NI flags on lampposts in East Belfast, they're sectarian bigots etc, but when other people fly Tricolours on lampposts in West Belfast, they're warmly welcoming all the children of the Nation equally, then?

Well we can't have another false equivalence, can we?

[slagging off SDLP. Gobsmacked]

Honestly I'm astounded at the croppies on here, and a lot of lads who spend their time slagging off SDLP. Gobsmacked

Please just admit that's why you have this post?  You get annoyed because people give off about SDLP taking seats in London? They aint the same and not even close...

Deal with each issues for what it is, there is no crossover.. Sports people don't give a flying f**k, they are only there for the sport, that may be difficult for you to understand but it is...

Photo's of flegs must really get on peoples tits

It's absolutely 2 cheeks of the same arse, it's the most un Irish thing you can do, head off to a games celebrating servitude and slavery under the banner of the crown . There are loads of other competitions, this one is poor standard anyhow . As you said maybe a chance for people that aren't up to world standard to wrap a flag around them

As I said before you'll never understand the effort that these athletes go to, and for you to be all political about it is a bit childish

Again you seem hung up on flegs and politics and bringing sport into it to suit your argument or position.

Sport is sport, this championship is a big deal in the sporting calendar ... You said there are loads of competitions? Olympic, World, European and Commonwealth... There are various competitions but they don't have the collective atmosphere of a 'Games' 

There is no championships that are held really on a personal level, its about representation, the same competitors in gymnastics will be representing Ireland in November at the World championships

You will be up at Windsor park next

And most welcome Milltown would be.

Meanwhile, if your argument is that no self-respecting Nationalist should be seen anywhere near an event featuring the NI flag, does that mean that you're not bothered about Unionists declining to participate in GAA events because of the presence of Tricolours and the Soldiers Song there?

First post in over 3 months.....

So you missed me enough to check?

Awwww, that's nice. 

Anyhow, on a more serious note, here is what Ulster Boxing's high performance head coach John Conlan said earlier:

"We kind of get [young boxers] in there early and infect them with the seed of the Olympic Games.

"We sow the seed that the Olympic Games is the major tournament, and we say that this [the Commonwealth Games] is the best practice because it's a multi-sport event, and it kind of opens their eyes to what it's all about and gives them a little taste for it."

"[The boxers] committed completely to the training programme and under the big lights they performed."

"I think it says we're on the right track. We've great support from Antrim and Ulster Councils, and from the clubs. We've got really good youth and junior programmes and a coach development pathway for which Damian Kennedy is a prime example.

"This was Damian's first competition and he was absolutely phenomenal."

But, but, but, splutter, doesn't he know there's a crown on thon fleg?

If Patrick Pearse were alive today, he'd be turning in his grave, so he would.

Burn her, she's a witch...



P.S. She's holding it up, not just happened to be standing in front of it.

Don't worry, Naomi will engineer it
https://twitter.com/BelTel_Sport/status/1518987015210946561

The new plan needs £110m (and counting!), while only £62m, plus the GAA's own £15m, was allocated originally. So at a time when ordinary people are struggling to pay their electricity bills etc, where is the extra £33m (and counting) going to come from?

You'd almost think there was an election due...