Cork fans flying the confederate flag

Started by Eamonnca1, August 14, 2017, 06:46:45 PM

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mrdeeds

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 20, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 20, 2017, 08:24:26 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on August 20, 2017, 07:42:22 PM
Eamonn Sweeneys article today very good.

Gist of it?

Le Bron James attitude to rise of right wing movement versus Trump. Finished of talking about Confederate Flag. Asked imagine if a Black and Tans Flag was flown at a US Basketball game and defended as a bit of craic.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/american-sports/eamonn-sweeney-we-cant-sit-on-the-fence-any-longer-36049202.html

Link here. He writes great articles.

tonto1888

Quote from: LCohen on August 20, 2017, 09:36:45 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 19, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 19, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 19, 2017, 12:40:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 19, 2017, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on August 19, 2017, 09:24:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
From today's Irish Times letters page:

Sir, – If Cork fans want to fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their choice. If, as some may claim, it is a harmless flag, in the context, and is only used for its colours, well, there is another flag to hand that they may use that contains the same red, white and blue, ie the British flag.

No takers? I didn't think so, given the reputation of the Tans in Cork. Well, now they know what "offensive" means. – Yours, etc,

GEARÓID Ó LOINGSIGH,
Calle,
Bogotá,
Colombia.

I'd say the Confederate flag being used by Cork fans is a symbol of secession from the Union.
It's probably more about 'the people's republic of Cork' than anything else.
To suggest it could be replaced with the Union Jack is a silly cheap shot.
The Union Jack would be less offensive.

Less offensive to who
Less offensive to anybody who recognises international law as it's an internationally recognised flag of an internationally recognised nation state which doesn't impose slavery.

I'd find it about as offensive as I would hearing God Save the Queen played at Croke Park, and I didn't find that offensive.

The British empire imposed slavery for many many years. That flag would have been seen by many as a flag of slavery. It is every bit as offensive as the 'confederate' flag. It being the flag of an internationally recognised state doesn't change that

The British state did many bad things. The Irish state did many bad things. Probably any state that has been around for long has done bad things. But they have all done good things also. The confederate states were banded together for one thing. Something repulsive. Something to distance yourself from

I don't disagree with that. I ain't defending the flyers not of it or the flag itself. I used to love it. I was a huge dukes of hazard fan. I had the car. A Stetson with that flag on it. A poster. I had a Pantera tshirt with it on it also. When I started taking an interest in history and politics alongside of Ireland and learned what that flag was basically all about I never wore that tshirt again. I had already outgrown the dukes by that stage. As I have said previously, if the southern states are removing it then it's time for it to be consigned to a museum

tonto1888

Quote from: sid waddell on August 19, 2017, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 19, 2017, 04:45:19 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 19, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 19, 2017, 12:40:34 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on August 19, 2017, 12:25:42 PM
Quote from: vallankumous on August 19, 2017, 09:24:53 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
From today's Irish Times letters page:

Sir, – If Cork fans want to fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their choice. If, as some may claim, it is a harmless flag, in the context, and is only used for its colours, well, there is another flag to hand that they may use that contains the same red, white and blue, ie the British flag.

No takers? I didn't think so, given the reputation of the Tans in Cork. Well, now they know what "offensive" means. – Yours, etc,

GEARÓID Ó LOINGSIGH,
Calle,
Bogotá,
Colombia.

I'd say the Confederate flag being used by Cork fans is a symbol of secession from the Union.
It's probably more about 'the people's republic of Cork' than anything else.
To suggest it could be replaced with the Union Jack is a silly cheap shot.
The Union Jack would be less offensive.

Less offensive to who
Less offensive to anybody who recognises international law as it's an internationally recognised flag of an internationally recognised nation state which doesn't impose slavery.

I'd find it about as offensive as I would hearing God Save the Queen played at Croke Park, and I didn't find that offensive.

The British empire imposed slavery for many many years. That flag would have been seen by many as a flag of slavery. It is every bit as offensive as the 'confederate' flag. It being the flag of an internationally recognised state doesn't change that
It's very simple.

The Union Jack does not represent slavery. It's the current flag of an internationally recognised nation state which does not impose slavery.

That you find it offensive is a personal matter for you.

Loads of countries had colonial empires, such as France, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Italy and Portugal. All are internationally recognised nation states which may have imposed slavery in the past, but do not currently impose slavery.

The confederate flag is completely indivisible from racism and slavery and completely indivisible from current day racism and white supremacism because it was the symbol of an entity which was set up specifically to uphold those things.

It has no other meaning except that of racism and white supremacism.

That is quite obviously not the case with the flag of the UK.

The union flag will represent a lot of things to many many people mate. It being the flag of the uk does. It make it an ok flag.
Also I'm pretty sure I've seen white supremacists wave the union flag. In fact scrap the pretty sure. I have

stew

Quote from: mrdeeds on August 20, 2017, 08:47:55 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on August 20, 2017, 08:42:48 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 20, 2017, 08:24:26 PM
Quote from: mrdeeds on August 20, 2017, 07:42:22 PM
Eamonn Sweeneys article today very good.

Gist of it?

Le Bron James attitude to rise of right wing movement versus Trump. Finished of talking about Confederate Flag. Asked imagine if a Black and Tans Flag was flown at a US Basketball game and defended as a bit of craic.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/american-sports/eamonn-sweeney-we-cant-sit-on-the-fence-any-longer-36049202.html

Link here. He writes great articles.

Ask yourself why he did not write this magnificent piece two years ago????? I will tell you why, he is as much a conformist to the left as you are. the left wing media controls what liberals think, forms their opinions and have absolutely no integrity left.
Armagh, the one true love of a mans life.

omaghjoe

That article is nothing about a load of lies and hyperbole, quite frankly irresponsible journalism and irresponsible editing from a leading national paper (sorry i forgot its the indo).
The tone and quality of the article in surmised nicely in his last paragraph about McGregor Mayweather, where he appears to suggest we should be gunning for an illeterate wife beater because CMG is now a racist that will be supported by the KKK ::)

vallankumous

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 19, 2017, 09:44:42 PM

So the modern day economy of Britain no longer benefits from the centuries of slave trade?

And current day slavery. The UK like Ireland and many other Countries deal in trade with Countries like Saudi, China, India etc that use slavery.
The word slave has been replaced with the word employee in many industries.

sid waddell

Excellent article by Sweeney there.

It offends the right people.

Maybe he should stick to writing about the social context of sport rather than about sport itself.




easytiger95

Jesus

Stew, the article was about LeBron James speaking out against Trump. So, unless Sweeney had a time machine, he couldn't write the article two years ago. So either read the thing properly or don't comment on it.

Omaghjoe, the fact that Mayweather is a disgusting human being does not make CMCG any less disgusting or his race baiting comments less racist. We can debate the relative effects of sarin or anthrax, but they both still kill you. Giving CMCG a pass because he is fighting Money is primary school stuff. Two wrongs don't make a right. And CMCG is wrong.

And speaking of relativism, no one is debating the fact that if you went into a Crossmaglen pub with a Union Jack on, Tonto, you would be deeply offending people and asking for trouble. You would be doing the same if perhaps you walked into a Warrington or Guildford pub with a tricolour. Symbols like flags can both disguise and represent a multitude of sins. But there are some symbols, like the swastika and the Confederate flag, that are so associated with a foundational evil like slavery, or racism or genocide, that they should never be used by anyone.

And by the way, the Brits abolished slavery long before the Americans, and did more than most Western countries to stop the slave trade by deploying the Royal Navy against slavers and pirates across the Atlantic.




tonto1888

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 21, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
Jesus

Stew, the article was about LeBron James speaking out against Trump. So, unless Sweeney had a time machine, he couldn't write the article two years ago. So either read the thing properly or don't comment on it.

Omaghjoe, the fact that Mayweather is a disgusting human being does not make CMCG any less disgusting or his race baiting comments less racist. We can debate the relative effects of sarin or anthrax, but they both still kill you. Giving CMCG a pass because he is fighting Money is primary school stuff. Two wrongs don't make a right. And CMCG is wrong.

And speaking of relativism, no one is debating the fact that if you went into a Crossmaglen pub with a Union Jack on, Tonto, you would be deeply offending people and asking for trouble. You would be doing the same if perhaps you walked into a Warrington or Guildford pub with a tricolour. Symbols like flags can both disguise and represent a multitude of sins. But there are some symbols, like the swastika and the Confederate flag, that are so associated with a foundational evil like slavery, or racism or genocide, that they should never be used by anyone.

And by the way, the Brits abolished slavery long before the Americans, and did more than most Western countries to stop the slave trade by deploying the Royal Navy against slavers and pirates across the Atlantic.

I don't disagree with your point. My point about the UJ is that it has a chequered history and will be offensive to many. Including people outside crossmaglen. The fact it is the flag of a recognised nation doesn't mean the above isn't true.

JPGJOHNNYG

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 21, 2017, 11:46:49 AM
Jesus

Stew, the article was about LeBron James speaking out against Trump. So, unless Sweeney had a time machine, he couldn't write the article two years ago. So either read the thing properly or don't comment on it.

Omaghjoe, the fact that Mayweather is a disgusting human being does not make CMCG any less disgusting or his race baiting comments less racist. We can debate the relative effects of sarin or anthrax, but they both still kill you. Giving CMCG a pass because he is fighting Money is primary school stuff. Two wrongs don't make a right. And CMCG is wrong.

And speaking of relativism, no one is debating the fact that if you went into a Crossmaglen pub with a Union Jack on, Tonto, you would be deeply offending people and asking for trouble. You would be doing the same if perhaps you walked into a Warrington or Guildford pub with a tricolour. Symbols like flags can both disguise and represent a multitude of sins. But there are some symbols, like the swastika and the Confederate flag, that are so associated with a foundational evil like slavery, or racism or genocide, that they should never be used by anyone.

And by the way, the Brits abolished slavery long before the Americans, and did more than most Western countries to stop the slave trade by deploying the Royal Navy against slavers and pirates across the Atlantic.

Not sure about long before - most european empires only stopped shortly before the confederacy and plenty of countries in south america, asia, africa etc continued long after the confederacy but get a free pass.

easytiger95

Slave trade abolished by Britain in 1807, backed up by Royal Navy intervention. Slavery throughout the British Empire abolished in 1833. Any last exceptions abolished in 1843 (St. Helena, the East Indian Company, Ceylon) abolished in 1843. From 1807 onwards, through naval treaties with other countries, Britain was actively seeking to destroy the slave trade and piracy. American Civil War did not start until 1861 - that is 54 years after the UK.

So, yeah, it was long before, especially considering that active attempts through court actions and legislation had begun from the 1770s onwards.

Rudi

Quote from: BennyCake on August 15, 2017, 11:06:56 AM
Someone flying a Union flag at England/Norn Iron match - is that not offensive to atheists, given the links to the saints and christianity?

If someone brought a rainbow flag to Croke Park, is that not offensive to those opposed to gay rights/marriage?

It's all about keeping the lefties happy.

The Iceman

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 21, 2017, 02:29:27 PM
Slave trade abolished by Britain in 1807, backed up by Royal Navy intervention. Slavery throughout the British Empire abolished in 1833. Any last exceptions abolished in 1843 (St. Helena, the East Indian Company, Ceylon) abolished in 1843. From 1807 onwards, through naval treaties with other countries, Britain was actively seeking to destroy the slave trade and piracy. American Civil War did not start until 1861 - that is 54 years after the UK.

So, yeah, it was long before, especially considering that active attempts through court actions and legislation had begun from the 1770s onwards.
The UK called it "indentured servitude" it was still slavery. Read a book called white cargo and to hell or barbados all about the slave trade that made the English rich. Perhaps thats why they were so against it - it was taking away a valuable source of income..?
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

JPGJOHNNYG

Quote from: easytiger95 on August 21, 2017, 02:29:27 PM
Slave trade abolished by Britain in 1807, backed up by Royal Navy intervention. Slavery throughout the British Empire abolished in 1833. Any last exceptions abolished in 1843 (St. Helena, the East Indian Company, Ceylon) abolished in 1843. From 1807 onwards, through naval treaties with other countries, Britain was actively seeking to destroy the slave trade and piracy. American Civil War did not start until 1861 - that is 54 years after the UK.

So, yeah, it was long before, especially considering that active attempts through court actions and legislation had begun from the 1770s onwards.

Pretty sure Britain turned a blind eye to slavery in India - the jewel in the crown around the same time at the request of the big companies of the time only becoming illegal in 1861 and after that slaves just got rebranded as labourers or servants to keep the practice going - nice

easytiger95

Read the post. Exceptions granted for the East Indian Company from the Act of Abolition in 1833, exceptions finished in 1843.

Between 1808 and 1860, the British West African Navy seized over approx. 1600 ships of various nationalities, freeing 150,000 African slaves in the process.

Certainly, their colonial practices were terrible at various different times and places - but the official policy of the UK was far more enlightened and progressive than the American one, and far earlier in the century.