Lisbon Treaty Exit Poll

[stephenite]

I think the EU would be grossly negligent if they didn't try and build a superpower in line with that of Washington or the others. Whether your like globalisation or not (and I'm not in favour of the concept) it's gone too far to pull back from that now. We either join a group to counter this or we fail.... eventually. In a world where food shortages are increasing, and Oil shortages are going to be a real fact of life in the not too distant future the people who have campaigned for a NO vote have also voted to cut the throats of future generations.

We have a UN, I would prefer to see that move forward, although obviously after Iraq and the US attitude towards it that needs work.  But still, it's preferable imo to having 5/6 superpowers trade off amongst power amongst themselves.
I am totally at a loss as to why you feel that NO campaigners have voted to cut the throat of future generations, in what sense?  Seems a little melodramatic to me.

The UN has no real power at the moment - I'd be open to the idea of adjusting that to move forward as you put it but I don't think it's a realistic, America's actions in trampling all over any legalities and ability to buy the votes of weaker nations are a more realistic way of how things will work in the future.

Regarding the cutting of the throats comment - OK it is melodramatic maybe, but I actually believe it. It can only be a matter of time (and by that I'm being quite broad, it could be upwards of 200 years time) the earth is going to run out of important natural resources through over fishing, over farming, inability to farm because of global warming, water shortages, no fuel either renewable or otherwise) during that time the Global super powers are going to move to try and secure and stockpile the resources for their own needs. I think we need to ensure that we're involved in that.

An Ireland that was left on the periphery of all this would be in a word, fucked. And they'd give their left ball to be part of an EU superpower.

I firmly believe that this is where it'll end up at some stage in the future - I just don't know when.  And of course I could be way off

[Zapatista]

Regarding the cutting of the throats comment - OK it is melodramatic maybe, but I actually believe it. It can only be a matter of time (and by that I'm being quite broad, it could be upwards of 200 years time) the earth is going to run out of important natural resources through over fishing, over farming, inability to farm because of global warming, water shortages, no fuel either renewable or otherwise) during that time the Global super powers are going to move to try and secure and stockpile the resources for their own needs. I think we need to ensure that we're involved in that.

I think we and the EU need to be involved in preventing that.

[Bogball XV]

The UN has no real power at the moment - I'd be open to the idea of adjusting that to move forward as you put it but I don't think it's a realistic, America's actions in trampling all over any legalities and ability to buy the votes of weaker nations are a more realistic way of how things will work in the future.

Regarding the cutting of the throats comment - OK it is melodramatic maybe, but I actually believe it. It can only be a matter of time (and by that I'm being quite broad, it could be upwards of 200 years time) the earth is going to run out of important natural resources through over fishing, over farming, inability to farm because of global warming, water shortages, no fuel either renewable or otherwise) during that time the Global super powers are going to move to try and secure and stockpile the resources for their own needs. I think we need to ensure that we're involved in that.

I agree regarding the UN, but the US are fast heading towards a position where they're in lieu so much to the rest of the world that they'll have no choice but to sit back and respect international law.

Regarding the resources etc, I don't think being part of a club will help if we arrive at that situation, they'll only throw us the scraps from the table unless we have something to contribute ourselves, and if we do (and I firmly believe that Ireland is in a better position than most other european countries to ride out any energy crisis), we'll be in the priveleged position of being able to obtain a good price for our exports.  Whilst you might say that defensively we'll be vulnerable, what's the difference in being invaded and having our resources pillaged (not that they're really transferable in that way) and just ceding them to our neighbours anyway.

[stephenite]

I agree with his opinion that the EU are intent on building a superpower in line with that of Washington, Beijing, Moscow and Delhi. I do not agree that an EU superpower would be a better one than the rest. How could he come to this conclusion? As I have said before and he neglects to point out that it is this reason that people across the EU fear Lisbon. If the EU want to build a Supersate it should be very different than the superstates already in existence and not modled on them.

I think the EU would be grossly negligent if they didn't try and build a superpower in line with that of Washington or the others. Whether your like globalisation or not (and I'm not in favour of the concept) it's gone too far to pull back from that now. We either join a group to counter this or we fail.... eventually. In a world where food shortages are increasing, and Oil shortages are going to be a real fact of life in the not too distant future the people who have campaigned for a NO vote have also voted to cut the throats of future generations.

Now I'm aware that this will be viewed as some by scarmongering but if you fail to realise that inclusion in a larger Economic and Political group can only be of long term benefit to our people and the generations of Irish that will follow us, if only to avail of the economic and resource advantages that this will garner, then you're just missing the point entirely and not seeing the bigger picture. Your commissioner in Brussels will do f**k all for you when the Yanks and the Chinese hold all the worlds power and are keeping those resources that we've exhausted for themselves, or worse, we have the resources but cannot defend ourselves from someone coming in and taking them off us because we've decided we're better off not being part of a common defense policy and all because of some shite spouted by the likes of Gerry Admas, Coiste and other fringe groups of our society. None of this will happen in our own lifetimes but it can't be too far down the line.

If I was German or French I too would be telling those ungrateful Micks to f**k off and stop holding the rest of us up.

I understand what you are saying Stephenite but your solution is the problem. All these problems you talk about are as a result of the superpowers competeing against eachother. It can not be fixed by adding another superpower to the mix. I would agree to an EU based on ending these problems but the lison treaty is about getting our share and not addressing these problems.

That's where we differ I suppose - nothing is going to stop the American/Chinese or any other super power from taking what they want in my view, we either compete with them or we fail in my view.

I'm probably getting ahead of the debate here and taking it off track, my view of where the world will be in a couple of centuries time might not be relevant but our ability to compete in the event of a future world oil shortage might not be that far away.

Zaptista, if we can be involved in successfully preventing that - fantastic, best result for everyone.

[zoyler]

I had decided to pass up any further comment but cannot let the 'monopoly of grief 'comment go unremarked as Sinn Fein continue to try and rewrite history. 

I do not believe in capital punishment but morally can you give equal value to the grief of an innocent victims family to that of the family of the criminal who carried out the killing?

I fully respect the grief of those families who lost loved ones on so called 'active service' be they so called republican ( I object to the way Sinn Fein & I R A have monopolised the term) or loyalist but they knew the risk.
These acts of bravery shooting men driving tractors or putting bombs under the wheels of policeman, prison officers, UDR men and ordinary people,the use of proxy bombs etc. and targeting solicitors and ordinaruy people on the basis of their religion fall into a different category.

Next you'll be looking for pensions for shinner 'ex-servicemen'

[magickingdom]

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

good point lb, and tbh it's not often discussed, but, we would have been in a much better situation now if we hadn't been in the euro.  Simply put, the euro project cannot work while difference in taxation and capital expenditure policies exist, central bankers know this, that's why in the short to medium term harmonisation would have to be on the agenda.

on what do you base that? the sub prime correction would have made a right mess of our punt when you consider the property bubble in ireland. one of the pegs that get foreign investment into ireland is the common currency along with a low corp tax and speaking english helps. check out the icelandic krona for the fortunes of a small free floating currency these days..

[Bogball XV]

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

good point lb, and tbh it's not often discussed, but, we would have been in a much better situation now if we hadn't been in the euro.  Simply put, the euro project cannot work while difference in taxation and capital expenditure policies exist, central bankers know this, that's why in the short to medium term harmonisation would have to be on the agenda.

on what do you base that? the sub prime correction would have made a right mess of our punt when you consider the property bubble in ireland. one of the pegs that get foreign investment into ireland is the common currency along with a low corp tax and speaking english helps. check out the icelandic krona for the fortunes of a small free floating currency these days..

Basic economics MK, if you've control over your interest rates you've got control over your money supply, hence the property bubble need never have happened in the first place.  Some people seem to think that we were going along fine until 'the dreaded credit crunch' where them bad americans fucked it all up for us, we were well fucked long before that, luckily for the ffers the credit crunch came along and now every time the idiots talk about our economic downturn they never fail to bring up 'the credit crunch', forgetting that we've been dragged into this situation because in the absence of control over our interest rates they refused to do anything to try and dampen the property market, but then why would they?  Their main benefactors wouldn't have been too pleased if they had.

[Tankie]

Control of interest rates is huge but for us joining the euro i thnk the pro's out weighted the cons as we are such a small country. But contol of interest rates is one of the main reason Britain will not join the euro!

[lynchbhoy]

Control of interest rates is huge but for us joining the euro i thnk the pro's out weighted the cons as we are such a small country. But contol of interest rates is one of the main reason Britain will not join the euro!

yep and now that we have a lesser risk of a replication of the monserous interest rates of the 80's etc we are in a far better position for the future and the euro wont allow for such peaks to occur. I cannot see the rates rising too much from where they are at the moment - this is a big problem for England as they avoid the shelter of the euro interest rate and leave themselves prone to catastrophic price swings and destructive fluctuating markets.

The hilarious thing is our housing bubble has bust but the house prices have not disintegrated , as many of these doom and gloom prophets had wailingly predicted.
My own example is that my house price has dropped about 45% of what is was worth a couple of years ago !

It is not only worth 380% over the price I bought it as opposed to the 425% value it once held.
IMO theres nothing wrong with that and I cannot see the prices falling too much more either, in fact they will long term prob go back up as
the lack of housing in dublin causes this effect, once the panic doom and gloom merchants have caused yet again over the 'failing economy' and 'yes vote disaster for Irish eonomy'  is also seen to have no actual effect and is another red herring.

Zoyler - again your opinion is just that, your opinion. Whatever you think about the politics and happenings of the 35 years war, there are plenty of people to agree with you aqnd plenty more to disagree - no matter how loud your protestations!

[magickingdom]

To answer what zoyler asked back a bit - I dont see how a No vote can upset our exports etc our economy is more in danger over the euro exchange rate rather than the way we voted.

good point lb, and tbh it's not often discussed, but, we would have been in a much better situation now if we hadn't been in the euro.  Simply put, the euro project cannot work while difference in taxation and capital expenditure policies exist, central bankers know this, that's why in the short to medium term harmonisation would have to be on the agenda.

on what do you base that? the sub prime correction would have made a right mess of our punt when you consider the property bubble in ireland. one of the pegs that get foreign investment into ireland is the common currency along with a low corp tax and speaking english helps. check out the icelandic krona for the fortunes of a small free floating currency these days..

Basic economics MK, if you've control over your interest rates you've got control over your money supply, hence the property bubble need never have happened in the first place.  Some people seem to think that we were going along fine until 'the dreaded credit crunch' where them bad americans fucked it all up for us, we were well fucked long before that, luckily for the ffers the credit crunch came along and now every time the idiots talk about our economic downturn they never fail to bring up 'the credit crunch', forgetting that we've been dragged into this situation because in the absence of control over our interest rates they refused to do anything to try and dampen the property market, but then why would they?  Their main benefactors wouldn't have been too pleased if they had.

there were plenty of way to control liquidity without using interest rates if we had wanted too, bubbles are another word for business cycles imo

[muppet]

there were plenty of way to control liquidity without using interest rates if we had wanted too, bubbles are another word for business cycles imo

A populist PD/FF government was never going to increase taxes which was what was required all along in Ireland.

[magickingdom]

there were plenty of way to control liquidity without using interest rates if we had wanted too, bubbles are another word for business cycles imo

A populist PD/FF government was never going to increase taxes which was what was required all along in Ireland.

tighter bank lending criteria and stopping mortgage interest relief at 100% on investment properties would have gone along way towards sorting out the problem. nothing will completely fix it tho, its a business cycle - the uk aint in the euro and they have their own housing problems.

the big plus with the euro going forward is that we will never see crazy inflation again and the cost of money will also be reasonable

[zoyler]

Lynchboy - yours so right - all I'm entitled to is my own opinion and, of course the right to express it.  Some thing that by their actions Sinn Fein could have a problem with.

I don't believe I have questioned anybody elses right to an opinion - just the correctness or wisdom of it.