More Dissident-Republican Activity

[JUst retired]

sensible posts Aoise, unlike TVM who seems to want to return to a past that is gone and which we don`t want to go back to. When they come up with a policy other than the bomb and the bullet, can they tell us?

[TransitVanMan]

Aoise, I do not advocate a return to war or violence anywhere in my posts.  Those with a republican outlook opposed to SFs current political position are viewed as dissident or one of the "others".

Equality and better social and economic conditions, though welcomed by all, are not why PIRA fought a war.  It was a war for unity, independence as all Irish rebel uprisings have been.  If not why did republicans boycott a return to Stormont in 1973. We could have been spared much of the slaughter.

I was going to ignore you last paragragh but it is so indicative of the attitude of the elite, super Irish/ Republican attitude of the current flock of sheep that I cannot. Of course you are Irish, if you were born here how could you be anything else.  But I am no less Irish, nor is McGeough or McIntyre. I thought you were against demonisation but it seems only when it suits your purpose.

[lynchbhoy]

Aoise, I do not advocate a return to war or violence anywhere in my posts.  Those with a republican outlook opposed to SFs current political position are viewed as dissident or one of the "others".

Equality and better social and economic conditions, though welcomed by all, are not why PIRA fought a war.  It was a war for unity, independence as all Irish rebel uprisings have been.  If not why did republicans boycott a return to Stormont in 1973. We could have been spared much of the slaughter.

I was going to ignore you last paragragh but it is so indicative of the attitude of the elite, super Irish/ Republican attitude of the current flock of sheep that I cannot. Of course you are Irish, if you were born here how could you be anything else.  But I am no less Irish, nor is McGeough or McIntyre. I thought you were against demonisation but it seems only when it suits your purpose.

no offense tvm - but the republicans I know that were 'on active service' were not out to unify the country. Thats a solution that would have obtained the requirements sought by people but
what was sought was "Equality and better social and economic conditions" - but more than that also - the stopping of attacks and pogams on 'our' side of the divide, the stopping of the persecution, oppression and systematic targetting by the establishment, its crown forces and the hoods they used when even dirtier work had to be done.

I understand what you are saying, but I at least dont agree with that.
Also I am not a sf supporter. A republican and so on, but sf only covers some of the republican peoples current ethos. For now thats good enough as the alternative - well there are no alternatives really..

[TransitVanMan]

no offense tvm - but the republicans I know that were 'on active service' were not out to unify the country. Thats a solution that would have obtained the requirements sought by people but
what was sought was "Equality and better social and economic conditions" - but more than that also - the stopping of attacks and pogams on 'our' side of the divide, the stopping of the persecution, oppression and systematic targetting by the establishment, its crown forces and the hoods they used when even dirtier work had to be done.

I understand what you are saying, but I at least dont agree with that.
Also I am not a sf supporter. A republican and so on, but sf only covers some of the republican peoples current ethos. For now thats good enough as the alternative - well there are no alternatives really..

Full circle again Lynchboy.  If that's all that was necessary then why not support the Stormont of 1973, rather than be the dissidents.  Surely we didn't have to go through the intervening years and the suffering, death and destruction when, as Aoise would have us believe, the Republican Movement had the support of the people. 

[lynchbhoy]

no offense tvm - but the republicans I know that were 'on active service' were not out to unify the country. Thats a solution that would have obtained the requirements sought by people but
what was sought was "Equality and better social and economic conditions" - but more than that also - the stopping of attacks and pogams on 'our' side of the divide, the stopping of the persecution, oppression and systematic targetting by the establishment, its crown forces and the hoods they used when even dirtier work had to be done.

I understand what you are saying, but I at least dont agree with that.
Also I am not a sf supporter. A republican and so on, but sf only covers some of the republican peoples current ethos. For now thats good enough as the alternative - well there are no alternatives really..

Full circle again Lynchboy.  If that's all that was necessary then why not support the Stormont of 1973, rather than be the dissidents.  Surely we didn't have to go through the intervening years and the suffering, death and destruction when, as Aoise would have us believe, the Republican Movement had the support of the people.

said it to you before Tvm, the establishment were still up to their old dirty tricks and we know even up until the early 2000's their word couldnt be trusted. those early agreements would have resulted in nothing and zero progress , only tocopperfasten the status quo at that stage. republicans were 100% correct to not trust and to rail against them at that time.

i'm still not happy in regard to the psni, but its a zillion times better than it was and most other things are ok now.

[Aoise]

Aoise, I do not advocate a return to war or violence anywhere in my posts.  Those with a republican outlook opposed to SFs current political position are viewed as dissident or one of the "others".

Equality and better social and economic conditions, though welcomed by all, are not why PIRA fought a war.  It was a war for unity, independence as all Irish rebel uprisings have been.  If not why did republicans boycott a return to Stormont in 1973. We could have been spared much of the slaughter.

I was going to ignore you last paragragh but it is so indicative of the attitude of the elite, super Irish/ Republican attitude of the current flock of sheep that I cannot. Of course you are Irish, if you were born here how could you be anything else.  But I am no less Irish, nor is McGeough or McIntyre. I thought you were against demonisation but it seems only when it suits your purpose.

TVM
1 - I agree with you in that all republicans should be regarded as equal, that said, I believe that everyone should be regarded as equal as I am a socialist at heart and feel that this ultimately is the basis of republicanism as well - which is exactly why I don't believe those who advocate further violence without the backing of the people are republican in the truest sense, their principles conflict with their actions.  The reason for me using the term dissidents is merely to differentiate those that may be pro agreement and those against, it is not a slur, nor is it a derogatory term although I understand how it is viewed as such

2 - Apologies if I accused you of supporting violent methods, I have picked you up wrong on that.  BTW just for the record, I am not opposing the right to take up arms in defense of a people's rights, I merely do not think that this is that time, 1969, 79, 89 was a different matter.  Which leads me on to....

3 - The reason republican's boycotted a return to Stormont in 1973, was because the British state still held the Irish people in a position of strangulation.  Internment was rife and as I've said before, the social and economic conditions of the 6 counties created a mechanism by which the IRA gained support for an armed campaign.  The political arena was not a place to be for republican's in 1973 - your insinuation that it had everything to do with a united Ireland, is IMHO wrong!

4 - To call people 'elitist' and 'sheep' merely avoids the answering of certain questions.  As I've said before, to call Irish people sheep is to completely undermine their political intelligence of which we are very astute as a nation.  It is an immature response and one which does not surprise me.  You are entitled to your opinion, I just get afraid that others with your opinion and who do support the use of violent attacks (I get that you don't) are actually making decisions on behalf of the rest of us who lets be honest don't want to return to a time we would rather forget.  Dogma never got anyone anywhere, I just hope that all republican's realise this before its too late!

[Aoise]

Also TVM, I notice by your name that you proclaim to be from "L'Derry", yet here you are talking abut the sovereignty of Ireland!  Reminds me of that guy standing outside Croke Park when the English rugby team played for the first time protesting against the allowing of foreign sports into it, while he himself was wearing a Celtic top!!!

It is this kind of dogmatic action I am talking about!

[Evil Genius]

A Flashback from, say, 1978 or thereabouts?

TVM's Senior, I accept the fact you are not happy with the status quo, I also accept the fact that you feel that Constitutional Nationalism have sold out and are selling us all a pup.  You say that we are buying this 'lie' just because we follow the line that 'I'm alright Jack'!  But here's how I see it...

The Provisional IRA (whoever they are but when they do speak) portray nothing but empty dogma - no suggestions, just mindless actions that are pissing off their own community more than they are the Brits.

We are a politically mature nation, no-one is ignorant of political reality and if you ask me, that is where the Provos can never be credible.  To simply say we are believing a lie is not only patronising to the extreme but also ignores the fact that Irish people are able to analyse and evaluate political argument for themselves, we've had to over the years.  So methinks its your own lie that you are propagating in the hope that enough uneducated politically immature young men hear you and start believing you, but that is quite dangerous, as we all know what the consequences of that can be.

I heard a spokeswoman on the radio the other morning and I despaired.  Not one political point could she make other than she felt that she and the Provos had the right to protect the sovereignty of Ireland, she then scuttled off because she had nothing else worthwhile to say.  Now I am a republican, have been all my life and I understand that people are disillusioned, however I'm going to ask you a question - What is 'Ireland'?  In my opinion, Ireland is a nation of people who come from many backgrounds, just as it was in 1798, the Republic was foreseen to be inclusive of all and the sovereignty of its people was to take cogniscence of that.  It is not for a small group of people to feel that they have ultimate power over the will of the people because not only is it removing that sovereignty from them it also removes what Republicanism should truly stand for - The people make a nation, not how many yards of soil is in it.  The Old IRA had the support of its own people which in turn gave them sovereignty to protect them - Provos don't!

A United Ireland will happen, of that I am sure.  But there are many in our society who are choosing not to see the bigger picture and are just ploughing ahead with mindless attacks that the British can ignore and just continue to remove the rights of their own people.  Young children, who cannot articulate political maturity because they themselves are not mature enough to analyse it, are the footmen of those who should know better.

So instead of thinking that everyone else is ignorant apart from the dissidents, maybe TVM you should not underestimate other peoples intelligence, but underlying everything that dissidents do is the mistaken belief that they know best - how much sovereignty are we allowed from that conclusion then as Irish people?

I look forward with despair to more of the same in 2040, 2080, 2110 etc, though I'll be long dead before then,  having died not in a United Ireland, but in a United Kingdom.

In which case, I shall be in the company (metaphorically speaking) of the likes of Joe Cahill, Brian Keenan, Gerry Adams Senior, Brendan Hughes et al.

And, I expect, the same will apply to Gerry Adams Jr, Martin McGuinness and Alex Maskey etc, though not I hope not to end up in the same place as them...

[The Iceman]

I look forward with despair to more of the same in 2040, 2080, 2110 etc, though I'll be long dead before then,  having died not in a United Ireland, but in a United Kingdom.

You moving to England EG?
Will be glad to see the back of you sad to see you go

[Aoise]

EG - changing my words only serves to highlight your own narrow political viewpoint.  whether you accept it or not, the troubles began with justification.  I'm not going to argue with you as you can see I only post when I've something worthwhile to say.  I have two ears and one mouth and this should reflect the amount of listening we all do.  I have been reading this forum for many years and I know where your coming from, mindless political debate doesn't interest me.  Maybe you should use your ears more often instead of putting your mouth to use before your brain clicks into place.  I would then be interested to hear your opinion - however I fear this won't happen!  Good Luck!!!

[Banana Man]

A Flashback from, say, 1978 or thereabouts?

TVM's Senior, I accept the fact you are not happy with the status quo, I also accept the fact that you feel that Constitutional Nationalism have sold out and are selling us all a pup.  You say that we are buying this 'lie' just because we follow the line that 'I'm alright Jack'!  But here's how I see it...

The Provisional IRA (whoever they are but when they do speak) portray nothing but empty dogma - no suggestions, just mindless actions that are pissing off their own community more than they are the Brits.

We are a politically mature nation, no-one is ignorant of political reality and if you ask me, that is where the Provos can never be credible.  To simply say we are believing a lie is not only patronising to the extreme but also ignores the fact that Irish people are able to analyse and evaluate political argument for themselves, we've had to over the years.  So methinks its your own lie that you are propagating in the hope that enough uneducated politically immature young men hear you and start believing you, but that is quite dangerous, as we all know what the consequences of that can be.

I heard a spokeswoman on the radio the other morning and I despaired.  Not one political point could she make other than she felt that she and the Provos had the right to protect the sovereignty of Ireland, she then scuttled off because she had nothing else worthwhile to say.  Now I am a republican, have been all my life and I understand that people are disillusioned, however I'm going to ask you a question - What is 'Ireland'?  In my opinion, Ireland is a nation of people who come from many backgrounds, just as it was in 1798, the Republic was foreseen to be inclusive of all and the sovereignty of its people was to take cogniscence of that.  It is not for a small group of people to feel that they have ultimate power over the will of the people because not only is it removing that sovereignty from them it also removes what Republicanism should truly stand for - The people make a nation, not how many yards of soil is in it.  The Old IRA had the support of its own people which in turn gave them sovereignty to protect them - Provos don't!

A United Ireland will happen, of that I am sure.  But there are many in our society who are choosing not to see the bigger picture and are just ploughing ahead with mindless attacks that the British can ignore and just continue to remove the rights of their own people.  Young children, who cannot articulate political maturity because they themselves are not mature enough to analyse it, are the footmen of those who should know better.

So instead of thinking that everyone else is ignorant apart from the dissidents, maybe TVM you should not underestimate other peoples intelligence, but underlying everything that dissidents do is the mistaken belief that they know best - how much sovereignty are we allowed from that conclusion then as Irish people?

I look forward with despair to more of the same in 2040, 2080, 2110 etc, though I'll be long dead before then,  having died not in a United Ireland, but in a United Kingdom.

In which case, I shall be in the company (metaphorically speaking) of the likes of Joe Cahill, Brian Keenan, Gerry Adams Senior, Brendan Hughes et al.

And, I expect, the same will apply to Gerry Adams Jr, Martin McGuinness and Alex Maskey etc, though not I hope not to end up in the same place as them...

that just struck me there, is it a united Queendom then at the moment? No doubt it will be a kingdom when you die, assuming you see of Lizzie and either Charlie or Willy takes tot he throne but seeing as there presently is no king should the UK not be the UQ? - just a thought 

[TransitVanMan]

Aoise, yes L'derry short for Londonderry, UK City of Culture as endorsed by McGuiness. Sarcasm is obviously lost on you.

So it's was OK to resist, with violence, the institutions in 1973 but embrace them less than 20 years later, and have the gall to demonise those who would oppose the institutions now.

As I have said on here previously, unity has always been a key republican demand. SF entered into 'negotiations' full in the knowledge that strategic theatre was already set.  They were to be encouraged into constitutional politics while facing no limits on their political growth in the North, so long as every concession ceded by the British was ring fenced in by the consent principle, long described by SF as the 'unionist veto '.

For this they were prepared to jettison the republicanism which they had used as a vehicle on their short trip into constitutional politics, and cast aside the demand which defined republicanism, unity.

[The Iceman]

For this they were prepared to jettison the republicanism which they had used as a vehicle on their short trip into constitutional politics, and cast aside the demand which defined republicanism, unity.

stop rhyming off Gerry Bradley and think for yourself

[Rossfan]

the consent principle, long described by SF as the 'unionist veto '.

How can you unite Ireland if a crowd who are a majority in one corner of the Country won't agree to it?
Using armed struggle (against who nowadays?) will hardly change their minds.
Hopefully when the Germans IMF/ECB give us enough money to pay back their investments in the Irish Zombie banks, then help us improve our Economy so we can afford to pay back their loans we might see some of those Unionists becoming non Unionists who might see it as in their best Interests to be part of an All Ireland set up.
However Dissident Republicans will hardly convince them.

[Sandino]

I see now that reports are saying that the fire on Boucher Rd was not suspicious.